Stealing the Afikomon

It is a bit our fault. One year we used a “decoy” afikomon besides the real afikomon..The youngsters stole the “fake afikonmon” and they ended up with fake news, fake presents, and no impeachment, no collusion with the Russians….nada, nothing.

When they offered to sell back the fake afikomon for a heavy randsom, we said , Neyet! Send it to Putin!

Well it worked that one year. The next year they decide not to fall for a fake afikomon, so they stole ALL the matzos.

Can you blame them?!

Now we have a worry that they will be chapping ALL the matzos!

Oy Vey!

writer – “Where did the whole stealing thing come from?”

Pesochim 109 a Rabi Eliezer says on pessach we “chap” the matzos. Rashi, Rashbam expalin what chapping means, but Rambam in Chmetz Matza ch 7 hal 3 states that it means that people grab away the matzos from each other which excites the kids to stay awake. Meiri is more explicit. And the rishon, Mharam M’Challvah says we STEAL the afikomon from one another!!

The Chok Yaakov s. 472 ss 2 says the custom is the CHILDREN should STEAL the afikoman based on Gemora above. Same also in Be’er Heytev ss. 19.

חוטפין מצה is a chazal. If Lubavitch does not allow stealing the matza, that’s not unusual. Lubavitch does things their way.But I am surprised about others! The issue is – what happens when they steal ALL the matzos?!

NevChaimBerlin – I am not Lubavitch or even chassidic, but I do love all frum Yidden and tolerate our diverse ways of serving Hashem.

Yidden are like my cholent – there are potatoes, beans, barley, meat, onions and all my secret ingredients. We need each ingredient to make the cholent and if one is removed, the cholent won’t be what it should.

The beans in the cholent might make fun of the potatoes, and the meat might think that he is the “real” cholent and the onion is not part of the Cholent Tzibbur, but that is pure silliness.

So if you are the barley or the spice – without the rest of us you do not make the Tzibbur of Klal Yisroel.

The cholent of Frum Yidden is delicious. A symphony of flavours!

(And the Coffee Room is sometimes like the boiling pot holding the cholent).

Enjoy the cholent.

lacisrmma – “Egg Matza!!!!!???? Since when do we allow matza ashira to healthy people?”

We don’t. But the situation is: A brocha on netila for ha’motzei was made, no regular matzos are available. So now do we lose the bracha (l’vatala) or can one be kovaya seuda and eat egg matza – in such a sha’as ha’d’chak?

Just reviewing the halachos of stealing (the afikomon);

1. The kids that stole the afikomon matzah, they can’t be yotzeh with the matza they stole – it’s mitzva ha’ba b’averah

2. When they return matzah, they get the mitzva of v’hayshiv es hagzeilah asher gozal. But they should not steal “just” to get the mitzvah. That is like doing an aveirah justt so one can have the mitzva of teshuva.

3. A ganov is chayev kefel (double), so they need to really return twice the matza they stole.

4. If they made a major change in the matza, like if they constructed a building with the matza, they need not return the matza itself, just the value.

5. The value of the matza fluctuates (after pesach matza is worth less than before pessach), still, after pesach they can return the now discounted matza and say “haray shelcha l’fanecha”.

lower – indeed bais din cannot IMPOSE a knas, but that does not negate the chiyuv to pay kefel.

Neville, specifically which major achronim do you mean – that say one is yotzeh with stolen matzah?

You claim ONLY the Baal Hatanya holds that way!

Although I honestly do not know how the Baal Hatanya paskens – I assume in Rav Shulchan Oruch and not in Sefer HaTanya. I will list below the Rishonim and Poskim that ALL say one is NOT yotzeh with stolen matzah.

I must note that YOU seem to know how the Baal Hatanya paskens, yet I am not choshed you are a Lubavitcher, since many learn Rav Shulchan Oruch, especially since the Minshe Brura often cites him).

A brief listing of Rishonim and poskim that I am familiar with on the topic:

Rishonim

1.Rambam (Hilchos Chametz u’Matzah 6:7): One is NOT Yotzei with stolen Matzah. One is Yotzei only with Matzah on which one blesses Birkas ha’Mazon.

i.Magid Mishneh and R. Mano’ach, citing the Yerushalmi: One may not bless on stolen Matzah. R. Oshaya learns this from “Botze’a Barech.” This refers to beforehand. One blesses afterwards, for he owes just money. R. Yonah says, an Aveirah is not a Mitzvah. R. Yosi says, a Mitzvah is not an Aveirah. R. Ila says “these are the Mitzvos” – if you do not do them properly, they are not Mitzvos. Some say that one is Yotzei b’Di’eved, for one owes only money, and it does not say “Matzaschem.” This is unlike the end of the Yerushalmi. If one stole flour or wheat and made Matzah, surely he was Yotzei. He acquired, and owes only money.

ii.R. Mano’ach: Even though it does not say “Matzaschem”, we learn from Chalah, for which “Arisoseichem” excludes Hekdesh. We disqualify Matzah of Ma’aser according to the opinion that it is Hash-m’s property. Surely, also Gezel is excluded. If one’s Matzah might have been switched with another’s (e.g. during baking), they should stipulate that whatever each takes is his. We do not bless Birkas ha’Mazon on stolen Matzah, for it was an Aveirah (Rambam Hilchos Berachos 1:19).

2.Rosh (Pesachim 2:18): One is not Yotzei with stolen Matzah. Chachamim argue only about Ma’aser Sheni. They also learn the Gezeirah Shavah “Lechem-Lechem” (Menachos 70b). Stolen Matzah is not considered yours. In the Yerushalmi, it seems that R. Oshaya holds that one is Yotzei b’Di’eved, but perhaps the latter Amora’im disagree.

i.Ritva (Sukah 35a DH Ela): One is Yotzei with stolen or borrowed Matzah, for he acquires it through Shinuy while chewing it, like it says in Kesuvos. The Gezeirah Shavah requires your Matzah. This excludes only Ma’aser Sheni, according to R. Meir. He holds that it is Hash-m’s food, and one has permission to eat it, so we cannot say that he acquires through Shinuy.

3.Tosfos R. Peretz and Tosfos Rashba (Pesachim 35b DH Aval): Mitzvah ha’Ba’ah b’Aveirah applies only to Mitzvos like Lulav, which we use to praise Hash-m and appease Him, or Korban.

4.Ramban (Pesachim 35b DH Yesh): Mitzvah ha’Ba’ah b’Aveirah does not apply to an Isur like Tevel, which can be fixed. Mitzvah ha’Ba’ah b’Aveirah is only mid’Rabanan; the Gemara brought an Asmachta from Nevi’im. Some disagree.

Poskim

1.Shulchan Aruch (OC 454:4): One is NOT Yotzei with stolen Matzah.

i.Mishnah Berurah (14 and Bi’ur Halachah DH Ein): This connotes that he must bless again. However, since the Ritva says that he was Yotzei, perhaps he should not bless again. Sha’agas Aryeh (95) says that even on the second night, he was not Yotzei. Some say that one is Yotzei with stolen Maror. Others say that also Maror must be yours. Sha’agas Aryeh (94) says that this is a Mitzvah mid’Rabanan ha’Ba’ah b’Aveirah. The Mechaber (649:5) says that one is Yotzei in such a case, but the Rema says that one is not Yotzei.

ii.Magen Avraham (196:1): Perhaps one blesses Birkas ha’Mazon even if he ate stolen bread, for he acquired it through eating. Also, the Beis Yosef was in doubt in Siman 649 (about blessing after one acquired through Shinuy), so we must be stringent about Birkas ha’Mazon.

iii.Kaf ha’Chayim (29): The Aruch ha’Shulchan is lenient about Maror on the second night, when it is mid’Rabanan for two reasons, since some are lenient even on the first night.

2.Shulchan Aruch (ibid.): This is if he stole Matzah. If he stole flour or wheat and made Matzah, he was Yotzei, for he acquired it, and he owes only money.

i.Taz (4): Even though one is not Yotzei with a borrowed Esrog, for it must be yours, one is Yotzei with borrowed Matzah. The lender knows that the borrower will eat it. He allows him to acquire it and pay for it afterwards.

ii.Kaf ha’Chayim (31): One is Yotzei l’Chatchilah with borrowed Matzah.

iii.Magen Avraham (5): If Ploni stole Matzah and gave to Levi after despair, Levi is Yotzei. If Levi returned it to Ploni, Ploni is Yotzei with it.

iv.Gra (9): We forbid due to Mitzvah ha’Ba’ah b’Aveirah only when he acquires through an Aveirah, e.g. Shinuy Reshus with yi’ushr. This is according to the Halachah, that yi’ushr does not acquire by itself.

v.Gra (10): Tosfos says that even when he acquired it without the Aveirah and it is not Mitzvah ha’Ba’ah b’Aveirah, he may not bless on it.

vi.Mishnah Berurah (16,17): One is not Yotzei l’Chatchilah, for he may not bless on it. One who bought stolen Matzah after yi’ush may bless on it, for it did not come to him through an Aveirah.

Neville, instead of learning Tanya all day, you should open a Mishne Brura and have a seder in Gemorah . ‘ain am haaretz chosid”

Syag – I just happen to have the knowledge to back up what I say. That makes me different than others that I insult when they claim halachic/Torah positions that are incorrect. By posting misinformation in a public fprum, others are mislead. in such a case, one must not sit idely by and remain silent. There is a chiyuv to point out the mistake and correct it.

When I “insult”, I try to mirror back the concept or words said to me or others. In this case the comment was:
“you realize that every major acharon except the Baal Hatanya poskens that mitzvah habah b’averah is still yotzi b’dieved? Did you accidentally out yourself as a Lubavitcher again? Or, is this all part of your incredibly intricate CR account build?”
the implication that I am Chabad I mirrored back with ” learn Tanya all day”, and the adage “kol haposel b’mumo posel’ – one uses his own fault when faulting others.

likewise refering to Rav shulchan oruch as Baal Hatanya is like refrencing the Mishna Brura as the Chofetz Chaim.

bottom line is that I can cite chapter and verse to back points I raise. Others use their own mind set, sevoras ha’beten and simply if they don’t know of it, it must be wrong. That makes me stand head and shoulder above them, on my “high horse” (if you will), while herding cats.