Taking part in an education assembly in Tel Aviv last week, Minister of Education (Yesh Atid) Rabbi Shai Piron reiterated that in line with his vision, there is an absolute necessity for chareidi mosdos to include secular subject matter such as math, English and basic sciences. The minister added that this may not be accomplished by one side compelling the other and it is essential that it is understood the ministry in no way seeks to change the chareidi way of life.
“That said, we may not compromise in our determination for we realize the current situation may not continue and this is not from an economic standpoint but from a moral one.”
Rabbi Piron then addressed the chareidi media’s reference to the core subject as the “gezeiros”, adding “when we are speaking of today’s modern world, studying core subjects is not to be viewed as a ‘gezeira’ but as a hope. Learning core subjects is not war but peace. Core subjects are not confrontation but an ability for all of us to maintain a common dialogue.”
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
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20 Responses
As much as I understand the difference – why were we in America allowed to receive a secular education and therefore the option to support ourselves fairly, and they are not?
I am not for forcing anyone anything. But why can’t our brethren in Israel receive a fair chance?
1. So why not offer economic incentives. How about, a scholarship to anyone who passes a test in English, or math.
2. According to the hiloni press, a major subject they want teached is “civics” – they are concerned that Hareidi students aren’t taught that the focus of Jewish history and culture is establishing the zionist state. From their press, they are more concerned that Hareidim are non-zionists, than lacking knowledge of English, math or science.
3. Their real demand is to cut back or learning Torah. That is unacceptable.
4. If someone is good at Torah subjects, they can sit down and learn other subjects when the need arises. A government concerned with Hareidi employabililty, rather than concerned with the growth of Torah and Israel losing its secular character, would offer programs for people to learn subjects in ways that don’t take away from learning Torah, such as distance education programs aimed at those ready to seek jobs (rather than children).
5. While it is shocking, we have to get used to the idea that the Lapid/Bennett coalition are our mortal enemies — more than the Arabs, and in a class with the Nazis. For those who have always supported Israel, this is a shock. Unless they back down, there will be a confrontation that will shake Eretz Yisrael to its foundations. They expect the Am ha-Torah to give up on Torah and Mitsvos, and they will be mistaken.
minister piron must learn Torah. that’s MY opinion
Denying a boy or girl basic instruction in core subjects like math, English science and computers skills effectively sentences them to a lifetime of dependency and poverty. It really is a from of child abuse but we are reluctant to uuse that analogy because of its connotations. There is plenty of time to teach basic secular subjects sithout disrupting the religious learning program.
Boy, was the Satmar Rebbe zt”l right then 60 years ago. Here come this little guy, a member of none other than the party that wants to uproot yiddishkeit, and thinks he can dictate to Charedi Rabbanim what to teach their talmidim. Happy dreaming.
Piron, how about taking care of the violence and immorality in your Zionist schools and have them learn some Torah and Gemara and something about their Jewish ancestors. At least you’ll accomplish something as Ed Min.
#5 Are you aware how governments work? We in the USA are required to follow the laws of Obamacare, laws of the IRS and fulfill core subjects in order for our students to receive high school diplomas. And yes all Israeli schools should be required to learn Torah, Neviim and Kesuvim.
It is ridiculous to insist on a specific amount of hours of secular studies,,, there is a way to accomplish these studies in out-of-school groups & classes. Many of the Chinuch Atzmani schools and SHVU schools surely fulfill these requirements.
I think that what many are ignoring, purposefully or not, is that the gedolei hador have voiced their opinion on the matter. We can all have as many emotions on the matter of core subjects, or anything else, as we would like. However, the truth of the matter remains that the manhigai hador have said this is not the appropriate direction in which to go.
#6- If the American government passed a law to restrict learning Torah, we would ignore it. In fact many European governments during the 20th century passed laws restricting learning Torah, and frum Jews did their best to violate the law. While international human rights norms protect the rights of religious minorities to educate their children (in part a reaction to communist legislation to the contrary during the mid-20th century), Israel tends to believe that hareidim are sub-human and laws persecuting hareidim are exempt. Reemmber that in America we have “Freedom OF religion”, whereas in Israel they have “Freedom FROM religion” – that is a world of difference.
I feel sorry for any yeshiva boy who has tried to follow the last week’s daf yomi without a good math background. The core subjects are essential not only to parnassah but to Torah! Charedi schools in every country in the world other than Israel teach secular subjects; in many (Canada, France), they teach the entire government-standardized secular curriculum and even boast about the success of their students in the government exams.
This is MUCH more important than the issue of the draft. Rabbi Piron is 100% correct here.
Tooli, have you dropped out of school or perhaps taken your children out of a school that teaches secular subjects? If in truth that’s what the Gedolei HaDor say, then how can you go against them?
#2’s second point is 100% correct.
First of all, these articles make it sound like Piron et al are talking about boys and girls schools alike, which they are not. These are efforts at undermining chadarim.
Likewise, Piron and his cohorts know very well that 99.9% of the chadarim teach math, reading comprehension, spelling, and written expression, what they call here “haba’ah bichtav.” Those are all the skills one needs to find employment at any point in one’s life, the proof being that when chareidi men who have gone through the cheder and yeshiva system participate in the gazillions of vocational programs here – whether it’s computer programming, accounting, web design, or what have you – they do very well with no problem.
This is a battle to force chadarim to cut down on limud Torah – and to give the government an opening to force-feed its worldview on us.
RabbiYoni, as I understand it, the main issue is that the Chareidim wish to to maintain a (very clear) separation between them and the Zionists.
B”H, this is not a problem for us outside Israel.
But, for them, they maintain this separation by rejecting secular studies and playing sports.
If Israel were a purely secular state, and not a Zionist shmad State, then these issues would likely not have come up and they could learn and play “normally” as is done outside Israel.
If the American government passed a law to restrict learning Torah, —-and WHAT COUNTRY is passing this law?
I wonder if the GRA saw this coming, and maybe saw that chasidus would morph into something so closed minded and shroud itself with a false aura of being holy. The Gra himself studied math and sciences and encouraged his talmidim to do the same. Even had Euclid translated into Sefer HaEuclid.
Isn’t there a on learning secular languages and studies in groups of three or more in EY?
Isn’t there a cherem on learning secular languages and studies in groups of three or more in EY?
HaKatan – I appreciate your response.
You’re absolutely right, that’s the idea behind the Charedi mentality. Though I’d hesitate to refer to them as Zionists – those really only exist in the Dati camp, but those you refer to are simple Jews who are ignorant not only of their heritage but also of their “Zionist” ideals.
According to you though – why don’t we have the same issue in America with keeping a clear line between us and those who are not Yehudim? How many Halachot exist to differentiate us! (All of Hilchot Pat, Bishul, Yayin, Chalav, Gevinah, Mashkeh Charif, etc).
Imagine the opposite scenario. Imagine if the Charedi community in Israel, like in America, could support themselves, Yeshivot, Kollelim – all because of the thousands of Charedi doctors, lawyers, accountants, business men, architects, engineers, etc. Imagine how powerful of a Tzibbur that would be?
This is a Takana in the words of Chazal – Yatza Secharo B’Hefsedo – you lose out by trying to gain!
If RabbiYoni wants to get personal I am happy to answer his questions for the sake of upholding the kavod of the gedolei hador. My children are in chareidi mosdos in Eretz Yisroel, which are not connected to chinuch aztmai. The gedolim say that when one needs to go and get a job THEN and ONLY THEN is one allowed to learn secular subjects because at THAT point it has a certain status of Torah because one is using it for parnasah, not stam to learn the chochmos of the goyim. I am finishing up a Master’s in Clinical Therapy; something I did AFTER consulting my rabbeim. The charedim seem to do much better than just OK when they need to. It doesn’t sound so “nice” or so “liberal thinking” to our chutznik minds which have been pumped full of Greek ideas, but at the end of the day even if it doesn’t sound so “nice” to me I have to listen to what the rabbis say!
Yoni, are you in a situation in your life where you listen to what the rabbis say, or do you just come online and try to ridicule their authority?
Tooli, you sure talk the talk but dont walk the walk…,internet is assur
Thanks for explaining Tooli, I really appreciate seeing the situation from inside your head.
Please have a wonderful day!