25 Responses

1. I will support a new ruling that allows military exemptions from anyone that doesn’t take Tipat Chalav, Bitachon Leumi, pays full price at any hospital or doctor, and has all their institutions funded with %100 donor money.

2. Then get out! I recoil from them…

3. I guess they really are no different than the Arabs who refuse to recognize Israel. As long as the Arabs are allowed to live there, so should the Satmars. If they kick out the Satmars they should also kick out the Arabs. Of course the leftist court will likely try to straddle the fence and punish the Satmars without dealing with the Arabs.

4. The article inadvertently omitted the portion of the Satmar petition to the Court that stipulates that the Satmar are willing to forego any assistance from the State in terms of police and security protection, fire and rescue services, public hospital treatment, flights on state-owned airline etc. In other words, they want to total forego ANY services from the medinah.

5. does the halakha allow for the use of human shields under any circumstances? 🙂

6. Perhaps they should go live somewhere else.

7. Very clever. Many in Israel, on the secular “left”, want to introduce the concept of “conscientious objection” into Israel. Israel is one of the few (I believe Turkey and South Korea are the others) democratic (small “D”) countries not to recognize the legal principle of exempting those who object to military service on religious or moral grounds. Arguably, Israel’s policy in this matter violates international human rights law (which is important, since Israeli law does recognize international human rights law as a valid source that the Israeli Supreme Court can rely on). Israel already exempts most non-Jews from serving in the military (though many volunteer to serve). If the Israeli Supreme Court holds that frum anti-zionists are exempt from serving in the military, they will then have a solid basis to allow for other conscientious objection (which will largely benefit “left wing” hilonim), and will probably result in Israel abolishing conscription and switching to a volunteer/professional army (something that is the norm in most large democracies).

8. “The reasoning behind the request is that Satmar does not recognize the state in which the military serves, nor the High Court acts.” Would Satmer say this in regard the USA, where they also live??? I DON”T THINK SO!!!! Regardless what one thinks about the State of Israel, you want to live here, live by the rules or at least try to come to an agreed understanding like we Jews are trying to do. I invite you 10,000 Satmers to go join your people in your newly called city Palm tree city!!!

9. The high court can answer by turning to the court satmar implicitly recgnizes the authority of the state of israel and are now required to join the army, unless they accept the gracious pardon of not endangering their sons as others do by the draft to defend all, including disrespectful ungrateful satmar.

10. Move to palestine or iran if you so despise e. Yisroel.
    Im sure they would greet you with open arms.

11. “Deferrals are a form of recognition of the state and its governance.”
    Petitioning to the high court of the State of Israel is …… ???????

12. Why are some of you so Anti-Satmeric? It’s a principle based on Torah guidelines of their holy and great Rav Yoel z”l. They don’t recognize Israel but some of them want to live בארצינו הקדושה. So hard to understand? You don’t agree? Fine. But don’t criticize them with snide remarks.

13. ashtt8 : The United States has recognized the principle of conscientious objection to military service. By the late 20th century, the US gave up trying to conscript people with religious objections to serving in the military. the same is true of almost all democracies (Turkey is an exception, should Israel see Turkey as role model?).

    curiosity: The IDF has no desire to conscript anti-zionist Arabs, since that would mean letting people who support the other side into your army (all the better for them to sabotage and spy). The real “bottom line” is that much of the secular left wants to avoid conscription and many have refused to serve, and if the Israel Supreme Court, perhaps relying on international human rights law, allows conscientious objection into Israeli law it not only solves the problem of conscripting anti-zionist hareidim, but also non-zionist hilonim.

14. It’s a shame to see a community that avoids everything “government” and then turns around and says they aren’t doing things correctly. Letting the country be run by Arabs is a better alternative.?

    If religious people want to have more influence on how the government runs, they need to get more
    involved. ( not necessarily by being a Charedi party – there are far better ways.)

15. Kol Yisrael Areivim. Ever heard about it?
    If you make a hole under your seat on the boat, everyone drowns as well…
    While the more Zionistic can lead the professionals and the army, the Hareidim should provide a moral and religious backbone to our nation.

16. akuperma

    Your information about conscientious objection is wrong. Most countries that have program of conscripted military service do NOT allow conscientious objection and even those that do require they conscript for other forms of civil service in non combat support roles. YOU ARE ALSO CO-OPTING THE TERM TO MEAN SOMETHING ELSE THEN IT’S INTENDED MEANING IT REFERS TO THOSE THAT ARE AGAINST ALL FORMS OF COMBAT FOR RELIGIOUS AND PHILOSOPHICAL REASONS. It certainly does NOT refer to those that are against the existence of a particular state that would be ridiculous! regarding a volunteer service. Being that Israel in such a small country surrounded by a billion enemies that would love to see it disappear how are you so certain that a volunteer service would provide sufficient man power? even those that proposed this option only considered it an option for the regular army during peace time but agreed there needs to be larger conscripted force with periodic training to be ready in case of hostilities. are the people opposing service ok with this??

17. The satmar rov Zt’L writes that it’s a violation of the 3 oaths for a majority of klal yisroel to be living in eretz yisroel before moshiach regardless of who is in control. Being that it’s projected that Israel will soon be home to a majority of world jewry that would seem to be a very serious problem for those with that shita living there

18. ytsytv: So your idea is for Israel to be modelled on Turkey and South Korea (I assume you don’t consider Russia and Iran to be modern democracites, do you?)? Western democracies (which for the most part have totally given up conscription) allowed conscientious objection to military service wehn they had conscription.

    If Israel is in such danger, the lasst thing they want is to conscript people who might not perceive Islamic rule as less desirable than Zionist rule.

19. an added thought – if Israel seriously tries to conscript hareidim, you will see Israeli Jews requesting asylum in other countries, which is world public opinion would undermine Israel’s claim as being a refuge for Jews. While only a few countries support Israel, even fewer support the terrorists. If one see’s Jews fleeing Eretz Yisrael, it would be, as Americans say “a new ball game”, and only that could result in the end of the zionist state.

20. Satmar has lived in Eretz Yisroel since before the zionists formed their State of Israel there.

21. Their argument would have a lot more merit if they were willing to ignore the state completely. If you are not taking any benefits AND minding your own business then you have a much more legitimate argument of “leave us alone and we will leave you alone” But if you are constantly saying opinions and protesting the behavior of a country you are aren’t really in the position to say leave us alone and we will leave you alone.

    On another note, the Meretz part once made an almost an identical proposal to all Chareidim (not just Satmar)

22. yoseph
    What is the relevance who came there first. If the Satmar Rov held that we can’t have the majority of yidden living in eretz yisroel befor moshiach comes doesn’t that mean we have to leave? Again it has nothing to do with if zoinists or goyim are controlling eretz yisroel. Just having a majority of world jewry living there is in of itself a violation of the 3 oaths according to the sefer of the satmar rov. Please let me know where i’m mistaken,
    Apukerma you never responded to 2 main points
    1. conscientious objection does NOT mean not recognizing the govt you live in. That would be ridiculous! It means having a religious/ philosophical reason against all forms of combat and war
    2. Even the countries that allowed conscientious objection required draftees be conscripted to non combatant support roles in the army. They did not allow them off “scott free”
    3. A volunteer force even if feasible will not solve the problem since all agree there still needs to be a conscripted reserve force in case of war etc.

23. ytsytv, your analysis is SO wrong on so many levels, I don’t even know where to begin. So I’ll just deal with your last post.

    1) conscientious objection is a generic term that does NOT mean ONLY those who object to any and all forms of combat and war. While that is generally the reason for objection it includes a variety of other reasons as well. It brings to mind the case of Mohammed Ali who refused service in the military during the Vietnam War. Surely you wouldn’t argue that a boxer was opposed to all forms of combat or that Islam as a religion opposes war.
    2) Wrong. Simply factually wrong. In fact, you couldn’t be more wrong. Unfortunately for your argument, South Korea — where they do this — is ONE country, not “countries.” Perhaps you saw the movie, Hacksaw Ridge about 7th Day Adventist Desmond T. Doss. Because of his beliefs, Doss was granted conscientious objector status and had to FIGHT for the right to serve in a non-combat role as a medic. He could have just gone home, but he insisted on serving in SOME capacity. That was HIS choice, not one foisted upon him.
    3) No, we don’t all agree. In fact, ISRAEL doesn’t even agree as it grants exemptions for reserve conscription at a rate of SEVENTY PERCENT.

    I understand you’re a hard-core Zionist militarist. You may be entitled to your own opinion but you are NOT entitled to your own FACTS.

24. The biggest threat to the army is if Satmer DOES conscript.
    Mikveh daily 830 to 930
    Shachris 930 to 1030
    Breakfast complete with herring
    Only Yiddish spoken and understood…

25. Torasmosheemes
    1. Muhmad ali refused military service bec. he asserted that he was a pacifist who was religiously opposed to fighting in war. Please name another example besides this where conscientious objecting was used? incidentally he was convicted to a 5 year prison sentence for refusing to serve though it was later overturned. certainly objecting to the legitimacy of one govt will not be considered by that very same govt a valid example of conscientious objecting
    2. Here is a quote of the USA policy to conscientious objectors in the event of a military daft
    SERVICE AS A CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR
    Two types of service are available to conscientious objectors, and the type assigned is determined by the individual’s specific beliefs. The person who is opposed to any form of military service will be assigned to alternative service – described below. The person whose beliefs allow him to serve in the military but in a noncombatant capacity will serve in the Armed Forces but will not be assigned training or duties that include using weapons.
    ALTERNATIVE SERVICE
    Conscientious objectors opposed to serving in the military will be placed in the Selective Service Alternative Service Program. This program attempts to match COs with local employers. Many types of jobs are available, however the job must be deemed to make a meaningful contribution to the maintenance of the national health, safety, and interest. Examples of alternative service are jobs in:
    conservation
    caring for the very young or very old
    education
    health care
    Length of service in the program will equal the amount of time a man would have served in the military, usually 24 months.
    3. i was saying the consensus security experts
    4. I’m not a hard core Zionist and i have not watched any movie since my bar mitzva
    5. I think i’m mistaken about the Satmar Rov position i think the only objection was to sudden mass emigration to eretz yisroel prior to moshiach but not necessarily a problem if overa long period time there ends up being a majority of word Jewry living there.