A number of women, residents of Beit Shemesh have decided they are unwilling to tolerate the signs appearing in the community which they feel are derogatory towards women. They refer to the signs instructing women to cross street to the other side and to refrain from congregating in certain areas. These women, affiliated with the dati leumi community, stress they have no desire to educate regarding how one should act at home but they feel they are compelled to act against the signs, which they add they have determined to be illegal. As such, they have filed a lawsuit against the mayor and the city in the hope of having the court order the removal of the signs.
Supporting the effort is MK (Yesh Atid) Dov Lipman, who speaks of the “moderate chareidim”, those who do not support such signs and are not in favor of unacceptable behavior against women. Lipman, who portrays himself as a moderate chareidi feels the actions of “bullies”, signs that instruct one to dress appropriately are not representative of most residents in the city but more accurately, the signs are representative of a few extremists. He speaks of the Torah commandment compelling one to control one’s eyes and to accept responsibility for one’s actions, adding the Torah does not speak about compelling women to dress a certain way towards conforming with modesty of one sector or another.
Attorney Roitel Sweid, working with the women, explains that spitting at someone may also be viewed as an assault and it is not necessary to physically strike someone. She adds the signs are discriminatory, citing the signs are accompanied by derogatory shouts and unacceptable actions.
Lipman adds he and others have turned to police to act but are told the police are powerless to act. He explains the court action was forced upon them after all other avenues have been closed in their face.
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
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13 Responses
1. Mr. Lipman is very far from being a Chareidi, despite his educational background. He is a sheep in wolf’s clothes. He is a hater of Chareidim. He attacks Chareidim at every opportunity, and has been doing so for years. (There is an old video on Yeshiva World showing him walking up to Chareidim with a immodest woman and starting to yell at them and shove them.)
2. The modesty signs are privately posted, not posted by the city or any municipality. No court or police can stop the private posting of these signs. If they take them down, they will be reposted minutes after the police leave. The police will not station an officer at every street corner 24/6 to ensure the signs don’t go back up. Nor will they send officers all over the city every day to take them down. There is nothing the police or the courts can do.
3. The women opposing the modesty request signs are immodest women who publicly walk around without proper attire.
If Israel has a concept of freedom of speech (which they do, sort of, with huge exceptions), private posters would be protected as long as they don’t threaten a breach of the peace.
Of course, a local non-government Beis Din might be asked to rule against the posters, which they might do on a variety of grounds – and a frum (i.e. non-government) Beis Din is not prevented from addressing the matter.
It’s truly amazing how much of a ruckus the anti-Chareidim can make out of a few extremist signs. Oh, and are they seriously still talking about that one time some moron spit at a girl a full year ago?
The signs are not the problem. In a free society people are allowed to express opinions, even obnoxious ones. The problem is the intimidation and violence. So why do these people use intimidation and violence to achieve their goals? Because in Israel it works. Go ask the Arabs. Go ask the Histadrut.
These women will now spend lots of time and money going around the Israeli Court merry-go-round and in the end they will win some sort of positive judgement that will then be ignored by the police.
Aryeh Zelasko
Beit Shemesh
these are not Charedim, they’re chasidim
If the signs are just merely asking/suggesting anything without clearing asking to violate the law, then anyone else could put counter signs as freedom of speech as long as they do not ask to violate the law. That is democracy and is currently the law.
Why not have the people who are annoyed go to a frum (non-government Beis Din) and present an argument that the signs are contrary to halacha (which they probably are, the posters are basically seizing property from the owners of street). A ruling from a kosher (non-zionist) Beis Din would have tremendous weight. From what I can see, the people posting the signs do not attach their names and addresses – suggesting they did not ask permission from the Beis Din (e.g. the Eidis hareidis) before posting them.
#1 I happen to know Dov Lipman personally and had a long conversation with him not long ago about what he hopes to accomplish in the government. You may argue about his joining with Yesh Atid, but I can testify that he he is 100% Leshem Shomayim. Unfortunately, there are a minority of Chareidim who are creating a bad name for Charedim in general and are doing nothing but harming themselves. I think its obvious that Chareidim do not have a positive image in the chiloni and even Dati Leumi sectors. Consistently doing things that accomplish nothing other than fostering that image is like shooting yourself in the foot. These signs are a good example. How many women look at a sign like this and say “you they are right maybe I should not congregate in said area” or Yeah I guess I really should burn my sheitel”? What it does do is give the impression that all Chareidim are like the wacko “Tznius patrol”. The result?-the current situation that we are in now.
So lets think -are a few good for nothing signs or inappropriate shouts at women worth losing funding for Yeshivos and losing Yeshiva Bachurim to the army?
The signs were not written by Chareidim – they say “Please”.
you write “They refer to the signs instructing women to cross street to the other side and to refrain from congregating in certain areas.”
Sorry but I don’t see words like this on the sign. What I do see on the sign is “Please do not pass in our neighborhood in immodest clothing”. in the Hebrew text they used the word “ana” meaning “we beg you” or please. I don’t see this as instructing but begging or in the worst case asking nicely.
“No court or police can stop the private posting of these signs”– REALLY try posting these private signs on Avenue M or anyother public street.
The problem is there are kehillos that think they are private, want to be private, act as if they are private except they are in the public domain. Kiryat Yoel, Kiryat Skwere, Gated Floridian Communities CAN post and regulate their streets and roads NOT if you are part of the public domain. Why not have these kehillos purchase land in Yehuda and Shomron and build a private kehilla run according to their rules and regulations?
Presently Israel is a democratic country when the days of Mashiach set in firmly then a new soverignity will take over.
A sad state of affairs if such signs are necessary in a supposed frum community.
why does yeshiva world need to post such chilul hashem