Some topics are just too controversial for the coffee room moderators.

You have to know how to fine tune the verbiage to pass muster.

Haime, censure means something else.
You meant censorship.

Moderator, you know he meant censorship. Of course it is his word; he is asking the question.

Without speaking directly to the Lakewood situation but in general, wherever yidden as a block mindlessly vote for a candidate for public office simply because some rabbonim or askanim said to do so, there will be no political competition. Sure, take what “the Rav” may say into consideration as one factor among many but do your OWN analysis of the candidates and their positions and make your own decision whom to vote for.

As has been pointed out to you before, doing things because your rabbeim said to do so is not mindless, it is called following Daas Torah.  Your habit of selecting when and where your rabbonim should to be heeded is inappropriate

In reference to your censure (not censorship) of GadolHadorah’s last post, i ask the moderator:

Are modern orthodox concepts not permitted on this site? Daas Torah is a chareidi concept and 100 years old. Modern orthodoxy has no concept of daas torah. In fact daas torah was invented as a guard against modern orthodoxy. See Prof Lawrence Kaplan, Modern orthodox, YU alum, biographer of Rav jB Soloveichik,

I will discuss it with my Rov and let you know…

1. Basased on the time it takes them to approve something, I have concluded that the moderators are humans who regularly eat, sleep and daven (or they are robots programmed to slow down at such times as frum Jews are likely to be eating, sleeping or davening).

2. What they ban is that which is prohibited by halacha or minhag, e.g. the frum minhag of not discussing “intimate” matters even that halachic books do discuss these matters. They also don’t seem to like kaballah meaning they assume that many users of YWN are other than Bnei Torah, or that the moderators have yeshivish rather than hasidic biases or at least don’t want to offend yeshivsh users,

😉

“which is to rely on Rabbis to decide EVERYTHING for you”
You, as well, seem to be unclear on what daas torah really means. Outside of what you belive it means, or what you would like to think it means.

Every day I ask my Rov shlita what to eat for breakfast that morning.

Lol:

Stuart: “You guys have no idea was daas Torah means”
Syag: “Actually, it is you who doesn’t understand daas Torah”
Stuart: “How dare you say someone doesn’t understand that. You’re evil!”

Neville thanks for the chuckle.

I am not knee-deep in anything. I have spent 7 years in a litvish primary school, 5 years in a chassidish high school, and one year in a chardal yeshiva.

Father from chassidish background, mother from background.

On the ashkenazi front, nobody has had a more balanced “indoctrination” than I.

Stuart- correct, you are not knee deep in MO doctrine, it appears to be in self-assureness. Since most posts have been what you know and why we should accept that you know it (you can check it out yourself) without displays of openness to another opinion there wasn’t much more i could add.

It doesn’t matter the diversity of schools you’ve attended, it just matters who’s story you believed. If you believe that MO is authentic Torah yiddishkeit and the frum world is a breakaway sect, then you drank the MO cool-aid because that is not the reality.

You’re allowed to be MO on the CR, but if you’re easily offended when people put down the MO, you aren’t going to have a good time. There was once a time where every thread turned into a fight about religious Zionism even if it was about something like gefilte fish recipes. That trend is not as bad anymore. I’m not meaning this as a threat, really just a fair warning. Whether you like it or not, you will be pigeon-holed into a camp here, and almost every thread is argumentative in case you hadn’t noticed. You aren’t ever going to feel like the other side respects you views. That really just isn’t how the internet works.

Daas Torah is Emunas Chachomim.

Stuart, I know what Daas Torah is, thank you very much- practically, not just as an academic concept. I brought a quote to show that since the very beginning, we were instructed to listen to our Rabbanim. You clarified this with semantics and how and when this concept is applied, I assume based on the “source” that you mentioned, which was actually a name of a professor and author- did you really expect us to interview him as to his thesis on the matter?
Dass Torah is applied as a gradient- ranging from the true chassid that consults Daas Torah, (i.e., a Talmid chochom/Rav whose knowledge of Torah gives him a greater clarity) on all matters, halacha, hashkafa and daily living, to those who never ask a Rav about any matter, even a halachic matter. Various groups/individuals lie at different places on this gradient.
And by the way, I was not trying to censure the MO world, but to show that your phrasing- that the MO have no concept of Daas Torah (as opposed to stating that they do not consult it as frequently as others) was not very complimentary.

gosh Neville, that was the saddest post I’ve read in a long time. Not this last one, the one before that.

regarding the last post, specifically:

As for the hostility, yeah, welcome to the internet. I started out here occasionally trying to get people to be more “civil,” but eventually I gave up

Exactly what I did. I gave up but am not embarrassed about doing it(nor should you be, I respected you tremendously for it). As you can see I show up on rare occasion again when I see people having those parallel arguments but, like you said, I am rarely successful. Not because people are too hostile or hateful, more because people didn’t get what I was trying to do. When I point out to someone that they are so heated that they are not hearing the other side, or when I try to point out to someone that the posts they claim are attacks are not really angry, I get accused of taking sides. Even if I don’t have an opinion on the topic! How many times has Joseph accused me of random disgusting hashkofos because I disapproved of the tone of the attacks. As if nobody would think you could possibly support someone or defend someone you disagree with.

So don’t give up! Even if only a handful of us hear you or join you, it’s not a lost cause. Just a lonely one.

Stuart – I find a lot of hostility in the CR.
I used to think so too, especially when the Zionist/anti Zionist threads were alive. I know realize that it’s not always so hateful when you try reading it again later without the “moment”. And I also realize there is more ignorance and anxiety than hate. Nobody wants you to be right because then they are wrong. And nobody wants to be wrong because then they may need to change. (my personal thoughts)

Yeah, what Syag said about going back to threads after the fact is very true. I go back and look at old threads where I thought everyone was being hostile, and then realize that, if anything, I was the hostile one.

It’s funny that the CR still appears hostile to people coming in after the old Zionist War threads. Those were hardcore. We had some posters back then who were very religious left (one even described himself as Open Orthodox) who were much more antagonistic towards Chareidim than today’s posters. We still have MO posters who have stuck around and I consider to be generally moderate and respectful, but none of us sounded moderate back then. This is probably exactly how I will reflect upon the Chabad Wars 3 years from now.

topics too controversial for the coffee room:
feuding chassidishe rebbes
pedophile defenders
why people complain about New York/Lakewood
why New York Lakewood residents call everyone else out-of-towners
ptcha
Rabbi ***** saying that people should ******* the ******
why certain posts get thru when they shouldn’t
income tax forms
bad things done by good jews

One of the issues here is a dispute about just what Daas Torah is, and what it means to subscribe to it as a way of Torah life. Perhaps my opinion is unique, but here goes.

What I believe was a source for Daas Torah was the vast knowledge that was possessed by Torah leaders. Without secular sources for knowledge (even though יש חכמה בגוים) they were skilled and expert in subjects besides a difficult Tosafos or Rambam. They possessed a “sixth” sense, what we might categorize in the realm of Ruach Hakodesh, that enabled them to render opinions about various subject matters. And even these giants had no problem responding top posed questions declining to resolve the presented problem. “I don’t know” or “I’m unable to help” were responses that were not foreign to them, despite their erudition in Torah and lives of kedusha.

Today’s world is vastly different. We treat the possession of Torah knowledge as Ruach Hakodesh, and a position as a Rosh Yeshiva, Rebbe, elderly Talmid Chochom, or mekubal as the tell-all answer that is defined as Daas Torah. I intend no disrespect, but this assumption is not necessarily true. I personally turn to just these types of people to pose questions, so I do not minimize them or their ideas. But completing Shas does not qualify one to repair an automobile engine, nor does it give someone the knowledge to give medical advice. In fact, numerous cycles of Daf Yomi do not authorize one to pasken shailos on a great many areas in halacha, all of which require special study and internship (שימוש). So when young couples in crisis turn to a Rosh Yeshiva or Rosh Kollel for advice, or when parents with a struggling teen consult their Rav, are they able to be confident that they are being guided correctly? Do we assume that possession of Torah data equals Daas Torah, and that this is the best ultimate advice to follow? Should we also accept that when a young Rosh Yeshiva ascends to fill his father’s position and dons the corresponding levush that he has also been Divinely endowed with the שימוש to become expert in areas he has not studied or trained?

While Daas Torah deserves immense respect, those who are approached as representing Daas Torah need to be keenly aware and brutally honest about the range and limitations of their knowledge and experience. Until these Chachomim are able to handle their tafkid with true awareness of their expertise, they should reject those problems and questions that are out of their domain, and refer to others when they can.

Anytime the talk of Daas Torah gets raised here in the CR, there will be needless debate because of the confusion just described. It’s not about MO or other labels.

Winnie:

Many of us know rabbonim, dayanim, and poskim. We also know rebbes, roshei yeshivos, and others. It is not my place to assess them, nor to grade them in any ranking order. I oppose the use of age or the percentage of white in the beard as an indication of one’s knowledge. Even among this listing above, there are those with particular expertise in Hilchos Shabbos, others in Mikvaos, others in dealing with medical shailos, etc. You get my point. Your average rov of a shul might do quite well to deliver divrei Torah on the parsha, speak at simchos (or ch”v levayos), and give a great Daf Yomi. That is not a qualifier to guide problems in shalom bayis, pasken shailos in mikvaos, or pasken a shailoh about a possible safrus problem in a Sefer Torah. As in a medical career, where there is core knowledge, there is the specializing in many different areas, and a good doctor refers anything outside of his domain to experts.

Again, I am pointing to the assumption that every “gadol” is a jack of all trades. We are privy to hundreds of anecdotes of some truly great leaders who refused to intervene in areas outside their expertise. Rav Avigdor Miller ZT”L was vocal about a great many areas. But he also deferred many questions to others. That’s only one example of many. We misuse our gedolim. And some rabbonim today assume they know much about certain specialties where they do not.

Neville:

I am operating under the experience of watching rabbonim talking through their hats about many subjects they have never studied or experienced. I am not using a broad brush. There are many who do consult. But there are plenty who do not. I have been consulting with many over the years. It’s a mixed bag.

Little: “It is not my place to assess them, nor to grade them in any ranking order.”

There seems to be a common misconception that we are unable to comparatively assess the level of various Gedolim. We can compare “levels” – in fact, we need to in order to judge who is an authority in the first place! If you can’t comapre levels then how are you to know that someoe is a godol? The fact that he is “accepted” as a godol only means that many people have judged his “level” to be that of a godol. But if you cannot compare levels, then these people have no right to accept him as a godol in the first place.

And the same common sense that tells you so-and-so stands out among his peers making him an authority, tells you that certain so-and-so’s stand out even more. Or less.

Part of knowing who to follow is to know who is greater. Godol mimenu b’chochma ubaminyan is an assessment that it legitimately made. And as Rav Shach writes – if you dont know who to follow, follow whoever is greater – and, he adds, you can of course tell who is greater. If you yourself dont know, then thats fine – not everyone can know the answer to all questions they encounter – but why in the world would you say nobody else can know?

And it’s an error in logic, too, because they themselves compared “levels” of other people! i.e.: “Rav Ovadia Yosef is the leading Sefardi posek of our times.” And how would they know this if you cannot compare him to other sefardi poskim? And how can one know whether “any of us are on the madreiga of assessing the ‘levels’ of other people” unless you assessed the levels of all those other people who said arent “on the “madgreigah” to do that?

So clearly, we can compare “levels”, its just that to some, certain comparisons are “obvious” and others are not. Well, to other people, perhaps who are more knowledgable and skilled in assessing these kinds of values, other comparisons are also obvious.

The moderation habits are very hard to figure out. I think they might be more lenient on article comments than they are in the CR too.

They let through a lot of stuff that I didn’t think they should have regarding HaRav Auerbach, yet they’re extremely cautious with the Lakewood Vaad; it seems inconsistent, but we also can’t see what people are trying to say that is getting blocked.

Also, they’re weirdly protective of Kedem grape juice. I wouldn’t even be surprised if this post gets edited just for me evoking the name. I assume it must be a sponsor.

a) separate set of mods for each

b) more than one mod here

c) ?

The main site always took a far more liberal POV in both the content of the articles as well as in the approved comments.

“The main site always took a far more liberal POV in both the content of the articles as well as in the approved comments.”

In the religious sense, definitely. I wonder if there’s a discrepancy between the readers of the home page and the users of the CR too. Maybe the silent majority of readers fall in line with the bias of the homepage more so than that of the CR, which is swayed by a relatively small number of overly-active posters such as myself and Joseph.