Veteran Yahadut Hatorah MK Moshe Gafne warns of the consequences of a split between the chareidi and dati leumi communities, which according to most has already occurred to some degree. Gafne made his remarks in Knesset, reminding the dati leumi tzibur of the government of Ariel Sharon, and how Sharon succeeded in dividing and conquering, eventually leading to the expulsion of the Jews of Gaza and areas of the N. Shomron.
Gafne expressed his hope that the coalition being formed will include “us all”, calling the sharing the burden issue “a bluff and a negotiating tool”.
Gafne directed his remarks to the new young Bayit Yehudi MKs, choosing to remind them of some Knesset history, reflecting back to 2003, when Ariel Sharon was the prime minister. “He decided to build his coalition without the chareidim” Gafne pointed out, “establishing his coalition with Shinui headed by the late Minister Tommy Lapid, and the National Religious Party, Ichud Leumi and Yisrael Beitenu joined too while the chareidim remained in opposition.”
“I am not giving an opinion but I want you to know the history. I too do not know what the outcome of the coalition negotiations will be but that government voted for the Disengagement Plan.”
Gafne highlighted that the split that resulted from the actions of that administration is a significant one, making specific reference to the split that occurred between the chareidim and dati leumi communities. Gafne then took a poke at Naftali Bennett and his decision to align with Yair Lapid. He warned that “a moment of pleasure seeking revenge will bring disaster on your own beliefs”.
He expressed his hope that the forming coalition would be a broad-based one, reminding the rookie Bayit Yehudi MKs that “the sharing the burden bluff is raised constantly as a negotiating tactic but on the day after, decisions must be made”, seeking to minimize the importance of that issue which is at the helm of dati leumi party’s agenda.
“Remember, the breakdown in relations between the dati leumi and the chareidim is what led to the disengagement. I am not giving commentary, just telling it how it was” Gafne concluded.
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
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18 Responses
well, when the charedi community in Bet Shemesh repeatedly calls the dati leumi tzibur “chilonim” and throw dirty diapers at the dati leumi girls (aged 6-10)as they are walking to school — WHAT DO YOU EXPECT?
What a polite way to make a threat.
The truth is that much of the Dati Leumi public is quite anti-hareidi, and to a large extent resents be “out-frummed” by people they look on as backwards.
One should note that most Hareidim living in the West Bank live extremely close to the Green Line. Also note that in economic matters, Hareidim have a similar philosophy on the welfare state as the left-wing Arab parties. Also note that if conscription is a political issue, much of the left already opposes conscription.
The Dati Leumi’s jealousy over the Hareidim learning better than they do is appearing to overtake their own self-interest. Remember that the “Land” is to the Dati Leumi, what “Torah” is to the Hareidim, and it will be very easy for the Hareidim to compromise on borders if the only way to end the conscription crisis is to return the left to power (and in all fairness, the left hasn’t had a clear majority of the knesset for over 40 years).
Gafne is not being precisely exact on the history of the disengagement.
akuperman, you must do teshuva for your loshon hara al haklal. You’re claiming: “Remember that the “Land” is to the Dati Leumi, what “Torah” is to the Hareidim” is as narrow-minded, biased, and inaccurate as I claiming that all chareidim share the same views as Neturei Karta. And how clueless and arrogant you are, claiming that Torah only belongs to the Hareidim. Spend just one day in my son’s hesder yeshiva, where he learns four sedarim a day! If you mean to say that chareidim “out-frummed” datei leumi because they have adopted more chumros, then I am proud to be datei leumi. If only you would adopt the chumros that would protect you from being judgemental and a loshon haranik….
And even with this breakdown two things will continue to happen
1: The Charedi parties will continue to sell out the D’L camp when it comes to land if it keeps the shekels flowing to them and their mosdos
2: The D’L camp will still chase the Charedim’s approval despite the fact that there will never be full hearted acceptance of their ideals, leaders, mode of dress, etc..
Comment number 1 is out of line hate mongering. “The Charedi community in Bet Shemesh” represents a large and varied community, the vast majority of whom do not hurl epithets, let alone diapers. The issue here is one of leadership and official policy representing an entire constituency. The fact is that Bennett himself has admitted to not understanding the charedi perspective. Seeing as many Dati Leumi Jews do serve in the army while maintaining a serious relationship with learning make the Charedi position that much less understandable. The issue here would be to recognize that the Gedolim who espouse this position are certainly aware of the issues involved, and feel very strongly that this is the right way. Whether or not all Jews should thereby feel compelled to follow them is irrelevant, rather the issue is for an Orthodox person to put at the top of his agenda an issue which violates deep Torah beliefs of another community.
to Happy Olah
It’s not akuperman’s opinion alone – R’Elchonon Wasserman called Jewish Nationalism “Avoda Zara B’shutfos”. It is when any mitzva is given significance unto itself instead of being G-d’s will. R’ Zev Leff has mentioned this publicly many times as well.
There is little I enjoy more than reading the authoritative-sounding narishkeit that akuperma spouts on a daily basis. The reality is as follows:
1) the Dati sector has successfully built a community of Gedolim, talmidei chachamim and baalebatim who represent the true mesorah of Torah life in the real world.*
2) the chareidim despise the Datiim for successfully negating the corrupt notion that Torah precludes employment and service to Am Yisrael.
3) the secularists -Left and Right – despise the Datiim for successfully negating the notion that employment and service to Am Yisrael precludes Torah life and learning at the highest level.
Indeed, most of the secularists (with Lapid a worthy exception) much prefer the chareidim to the Datiim. The chareidim can easily be bought, but not so the Datiim who actually stand by firm principles. The secularists realize this and now the chareidim are belatedly learning this.
Hopefully the time will come when the chareidi man-on-the-street realizes that his political “representatives” are mere opportunists who want to keep their constituents uneducated and unemployment so as to have to rely on the likes of UTJ and Shas to keep the money spigot flowing.
*#4 – chareidim like akuperma don’t dare visit your son’s Hesder yeshiva in the way that HaBayit HaYehudi representatives foolishly visited Mir. They simply can’t handle the truth.
to no. 1.
Your conclusions are flawed, based on incorrect assumptions. If I had to use your logic, I could state, “A few crazy people throw dirty diapers on only a handful of 6 year old girls, from time to time & the entire Dati Leumi tzibur hate the Chareidi population because of this.” In reality you are undermining the intelligence of the same tzibur you are comming to vouch for”.
Gefet contradicts himself with point number 1.
The first half of the sentence implies a successful build of something that did not previously exist beside by the chareidim, while the second half implies that this new build is really a mesorah from Har Sinai that the chareidim have perverted.
And apparantly he thinks that R’ Shteinman and R’ Yosef are mere political opportunists.
The break is most probably a good thing. Chareidim are not Zionists and Right Wing ideology is not synonymous with religion. It is important for Chareidim to highlight the Chareidi ideology does not support settlement construction or confiscation of Arab lands and that Chareidi ideology does not espouse getting Arabs to emigrate out of the land of Israel. Shas voted for Oslo and Yahadut Hatorah has refused to vote in favor of blocking eviction of settlers from illegal outposts. It should remain this way. Tov Hashem Lakol Vrachamov Al Kol Masav.
#1 – gross generalisation…
Apikurma – how true
Gefet – look at ther statistics. How many of the originally true religious zionists have grandchildren who served in the army and don’t keep torah in comparison to the average chareidi who’s children live within the yeshiva walls?
sho888-in answer to your question: probably 95 % of that zibbur continues to be loyal to the torah and to israel. about the same as the number of chareidim ,who suffer quite a lot of defections from their ranks, due to the rigidity of the present chareidi world.
This is a case of bad deeds coming back to haunt you. After generations of Charedim dismissing the D”L community and showing absolutely no regard for them whatsoever, the threat of a ‘split’ is absolutely no threat at all.
#1 – “well, when the charedi community in Bet Shemesh repeatedly calls the dati leumi tzibur “chilonim” and throw dirty diapers at the dati leumi girls (aged 6-10)as they are walking to school”
That’s mild compared to Goldstein, Teitel, Amir, the bat ayin group, and the list goes on. Not to mention all the constant “minor” price tag attacks. So you say these are only a few individuals, but of course when its a few deranged nuts in beit shemesh, suddenly that reflects all charedim of all stripes across the country.
#4 akuperman, you must do teshuva for your loshon hara al haklal. You’re claiming: “Remember that the “Land” is to the Dati Leumi, what “Torah” is to the Hareidim”
Land & the “mitzva” of serving in the army.
#4 – akuperman, you must do teshuva for your loshon hara al haklal. You’re claiming: “Remember that the “Land” is to the Dati Leumi, what “Torah” is to the Hareidim”
Land & the “mitzva” of serving in the army.
(to clarify, I’m referring to bennet’s comments about serving in the army being a mitzva like limud hatorah. If bennet doesn’t speak for the DL community then 1. why was he chosen a chief of the DL from political perspective. 3. why is there no outcry about some of his more outrageous statements. That’s why I conclude that opinion is prevalent amongst the DLs”
MK Gafne is seriously concerned – as he should be – that the Chareidim will be cut out of the next government. The notion that the share-the-burden issue is a bluff is absurd – it rings true with secular Israelis of all political viewpoints, and the next government, whoever is in it, is surely going to reduce financial support for the Chareidim.
I note, also, that the factionalism in Israel is nothing compared to the factionalism among YWN commentators.