During a weekly shiur, Rosh Yeshivat Kisei Rachamim HaGaon HaRav Meir Mazuz spoke strongly against WhatsApp, saying it “destroys the world”. He later explained how the app destroyed a Chareidi man and as a result, his family.
“One should accept things upon himself for Rosh Hashana; for example, to throw away the bad devices. There could be a simple phone that so to speak is fine, but it has WhatsApp, and this WhatsApp is destroying the world,” said the Rav, as quoted by Bechadrei Charedim.
The Rav spoke of a case where a man from Netivot divorced his wife for someone he met on the app. “Let him not think that the world is devoid of justice, the world is not devoid of justice. His children are miserable; one week here, one week there… he tore them up … So what have we gained from all these devices?”.
“Families and children are being destroyed forever. This is why one must walk away from this. Even one who requires it for Parnassa, he should do the minimum required. If one can make do without it, it is preferable. I gain nothing of all this. I have a telephone like my father’s father did, a phone where you say ‘hello?’, without ‘voicemail’, without all of these things,” the Rav concluded, visibly pained by the story of the man and his family.
(YWN Israel Desk – Jerusalem)
Join the official YWN WhatsApp status
40 Responses
I don’t understand, how did WhatsApp make him divorce his wife?
If so then ban the stuped phones and landline also?
Interesting. It seems the liberals line up with this way of thinking. Let’s ban all guns – they’re the ones that kill.
In my circles hashkafa, the app wouldn’t be at fault here – it would be this man who didn’t practice shmiras einayim etc. People sinned in this way before there were apps they just used other mediums.
But I guess there are many ways of serving Hashem. Shivim panim laTorah.
There is no doubt that these types of anecdotal events happen with some frequency BUT there are an order of magnitude more families destroyed by alcoholism than illicit affairs facilitated by social apps. I don’t find any evidence of the Rav having called for a ban on having alcohol in the home other than a minimal amount needed to be yotzeh for kiddush on shabbosim. The horse is out of the barn and there is NO way that this Rav alone, or dozens of rabbonim at an ant-internet asifah screaming gevalt about the internet will magically restore a more simple life as in the alte heim nearly a century ago. Focus on positive use of the internet, proper filtering and the underlying problems as to why men and women seek out new relationships on the internet rather than engaging in the misguided and unproductive calls to turn the clock back and ban new forms of technology and social interaction.
I think the issue here is the title of the article. ‘How WhatsApp Destroyed’. I don’t see the connection.
tell rav kanievsky’s grandson, always at his side. he is on WhatsApp.
As I guessed from the subject- more accurate title would be “How a man broke apart his family”
I’ll try to answer Rav Mazuz’s question of ” So what have we gained from all these devices?”.” To make the playing fields even the with subject in his story, I too am married with children.
Whatsapp has allowed me to help make last minute minyanim where they are short of 2-3 men. It also has kept me informed of community simchos and events. The “devices” allow me to listen to YUTorah and TorahAnytime at work and in the car home. I’m sorry to hear that Chareidi man destroyed his life and marriage, but, my friend, he chose to destroy his marriage- not the cellphone device. I’m pretty sure that one would be C’VS able to take the life of another by strangulation of tefillin straps- so should those be blamed and banned too?
It makes sense that none of you can chap why this is an issue, because the internet it one of the tools of gog and magog, the milchama that we are currently in, which is stemming from the tumah of gaavah. Something that comes from gaavah blinds a person to the truth, just like a baal gaavah cannot recognize their own faults.
The title should be “how an immoral person destroyed his own marriage”. The same thing has happened from people talking in person, on the phone, texting, or any other way humans interact. The fact that it happened to be Whatsapp this time is irrelevant.
To all those above: Ya, I’m sure this Rav is totally clueless, less knowledgeable in Torah hashkafa than you, and isn’t in a position to see how the internet/whatsapp destroys families. He probably has a lot, and I mean a lot, less Torah learning under his belt, and he’s a caveman who doesn’t associate with the outside world, so he surely can’t have a broader view of the issue than you do. It’s not like thousands of people unload their problems and issues to him, nor has he been engaged in helping others with shalom bayis for 50 years. Nah, none of that, he’s just clueless.
But hey, you’re totally entitled to your opinion, obviously more valid given your background and knowledge base.
aryeshoag
yes for you if you think its the same!
The idea is that people who normally wouldn’t start speaking to each other get connected through whatsapp, where it doesn’t feel like any tznius boundaries are being broken until it is too late. Even if it doesn’t effect the person himself, it can very easily effect his kids when they get it.
Almost every big Rav who deals with the klal says that they have seen many more cases of broken homes then they used to because of whatsapp and similar social media apps. (I am not sure if there is any Gadol who actually permits using Whatsapp lechatchila (not for pranasa, etc.). If there is, then I would like to know, I am not saying it sarcastically, I really want to know if we have somebody to rely on).
Toi, if this Rav really means what he said, then it’s really irrelevant several of the adjectives you used to describe him . I certainly wouldn’t call him clueless or “caveman” like you described, but I certainly think there is a mishap in his understanding of the advantages of technology in 2018. We must understand and respect the fact that each of us are come from a different backround, community, and personal Rav. Although I disagree with this Rav’s viewpoint, there are other reputable known Rabbonim whom I relate to. Those Rabbonim in my circles illustrate the dangers of media technology, but emphasize the enormous value one can gain from them (as I mentioned- texts about minyanim, simchos, online shiurim, downloading shul/yeshiva newsletters and parsha sheets, etc). As others have stated here, the cheater did an inappropriate and awful action (with or without a phone). Putting blame on other technology/people is the antithesis of Elul.
I don’t have whatsappap, twit, faceshmook, sinstagram or any of the other treif apps our gedolim have warned about….Hey guess what -I’m still alive and I don’t spend three hours a day looking at social media……So get a life everyone and chuck those die-phones in the bin before rosh hashonoh……
How is whatsapp worse than “old fashioned” texting?
Nobody is saying that WhatsApp is solely to blame. But it has definitely increased the nisayon of starting illicit relationships.
That nisayon is something we can definitely do without.
That, I beleive, was the Rosh Yeshiva’s point, that since it increases the nisayon, we would be in a better place if we could learn to live without it.
Wow, what a clear-headed, meaningful exchange…
1. The many wonderful things gained by modern technology are indisputable, but irrelevant to the conversation. IF – and I said IF – they should be considered a tool for aveiros and destructive behavior, they are forbidden – there is no Halachic basis to allow such devices because of the many positives.
2. OBVIOUSLY the man himself sinned. OBVIOUSLY the device did not “force” him to do anything. But it broke down otherwise strong barriers, and it brought nisyonos into the reach of a person who otherwise guards himself against the POSSIBILITY of sinning, which is what we are required to do.
3. I cannot fathom how otherwise intelligent people compare such devices to other modern inventions. CAN you use an ordinary phone for similar purposes? Yes, and for worse. IS that the basic use of a phone? No. IS it a real nisayon for someone to have a phone in his home? IS it likely that he will decide to initiate improper behavior BECAUSE he has access to a phone. No. And the same goes – good Lord, the absurdity of the comparison – for tefilin straps. You can sin with every part of your body too, but I hope you plan on keeping all your limbs attached. IT IS FORBIDDEN TO PUT YOURSELF IN A SITUATION THAT INHERENTLY INVITES SIN. It’s as simple as that. Ah – you don’t think it does lead to those situations? You don’t think it happens often enough to be categorized as a problem? You think you are immune? So here is where you speak to the professionals for the facts, and to the Rabbanim for guidance. You know, the ones who have thought about every one of your ridiculous objections, who are slightly more intelligent than the average YWN poster.
4. Turning back the clock? On what, ma’amad har sinai? IF IT FREQUENTLY CAUSES SIN, THEN IT’S FORBIDDEN. NEXT. The argument assumes that ‘keeping up with the times’ and ‘availing oneself with what’s out there’ (and convenient and helpful, yes) is an inherent value. And there are no inherent values except serving Hashem and everything needed for that.
How is pork any worse than old fashioned neveylah?
texting was forbidden by gedolim here in Israel long ago …..and I don’t have that either…..
“How is pork any worse than old fashioned neveylah?:…
Well, we are absolutely certain that there was no inyan of pritzus from z’man Matan Torah to the time that Al Gore invented the internet. I guess its different in the sense that with the internet, you don’t have to hide the stuff in your sock drawer and hope your parents/wife/cleaning lady will never discover your worn copy of some magazine. However, as several posters have noted, for most of us, these apps provide an incredible means of leveraging time and information for positive, torahdik outcomes. Sadly, those who scream gevalt the loudest, do so with little if any knowledge of how the internet is a vehicle for good
I am negatively impressed by these stories. The event described is of someone who has weak morals, and entered a nisayon he could not handle. The phone is not the culprit, nor is the app. As with anything else in life, it carries its benefits and risks. And there must be an honest balance to know whether it should be used or avoided. One of the risks of phone apps is that the device is small, and can be used anywhere, especially where one is not being observed by others. This secrecy is assumed to be solid, though it never is. And overriding all of this is that the person who misuses apps for wrong things is suffering from a practical deficit in emunoh. As we know from Pirkei Avos, דע מה למעלה ממך עין רואה ואוזן שומעת וכל מעשיך בספר נכתבים. There may not be other human eyes watching what we do on our device. But HKB”H sees all. If we are under the notion that our activity is going undetected, we are simply fooling ourselves. On Rosh Hashanah, our din will include these actions done in utter privacy.
Certainly, boundaries and restrictions are needed and should be followed. However, until we achieve the mandatory emunoh in HKB”H being ever present in our lives, our self-deception of secrecy is apt to continue. We thus lie to ourselves, and have a really critical issue that must be a focal point of teshuvah.
The man in this story was destroyed by entering a danger zone when he was spiritually weak, a double whammy. Whatsapp was that danger zone. I know hundreds of people who use that app with complete safety and manage the risks. I do not have the app, as it takes more time than I am willing to offer.
Honestly, it’s behind me how so many of you can have ZERO respect for Rav Mazuz!
I get it, a lot of us might not agree with what he says, but have some respect for the Rabbi.
Many of you clearly don’t know who Rav Mazuz is if you comment about his opinions the way that you do.
Whatsapp relies on GROUPS. We have a family one, a school one for staff members, a class one for each class so that parents know what home-work or if there is a siyum etc, a woman’s tehillim group for our community and a woman’s group to tell everyone who has had a baby (mazal tov) and needs meals, who has passed (BDHE) and who also needs meals, who has spare room because their family is coming in for a simcha(more mazal tovs) We also have a facebook page for us ladies and we always post something needs to be done- just a month ago in 2 hours we fully furnished a rented apartment had clothes, bedding and meals for a few weeks for a family who was arriving to our city and had NOTHING.
Each group requires you to be added by the admin- the school secretary, the head teacher for that class or the person who has taken achrius for tehillim or meals.
This man broke up his family. He had a choice to ‘chat’ to this person or not.
This is along the lines of GUNS DONT KILL, PEOPLE DO!!!!
If not thru whatsapp he would have found another way to get into trouble. If a man is not the type to cheat, he wont cheat.
This totally takes the blame off the guy for being a lowlife cheating scum!
It is his fault and his fault alone.
Sadly, those who scream gevalt the loudest, do so with little if any knowledge of how the internet is a vehicle for good”
False as usual
shows how much it became part of the 6 day week for many
It may be difficult to manage without it,
at least limit it to WhatsApp relatives
and friends
The Groups have all sort of inappropriate people joining and posting
You actually compared the internet to tefillin. Hilarious.
Tefillin is a mitzvah, it is kadosh, and called an OS.
The internet, is not intrinsically kadosh, and like I said before, is one of the tools of gog and magog, and therefore, it specifically goes against our OS, a concept which gog and magog try to do to us. They try to replace tefillin with their tumah. Its a gemara.
And here you are just proving my point.
People have said stupid things such as that everything Hashem does is for the good. That is a ridiculous application of the concept. A rasha is evil, and we dont hang out with one, regardless of ththe fact that Hashem does everything for the good. There are things in this world which are extremely hazardous. It doesn’t mean we need to get involved.
so many of you have missed the point. Of course the man chose to do what he did and sure it wasn’t whatsapp that made him do it, however we all have our spiritual ups and downs, the question is what choices have we made to to be less likely or more likely to fall, in a time that you find yourself in a spiritual down, many of us here have made the choice to keep the app however it is very possible that at a time when we find ourselves spiritually down, we are now at greater risk than someone that chose to distance himself from this app and the like, we may just be making the job a lot easier for our yetzer hora when hanging on to these things, but yes of course in the end it boils down to choice, so is building fences a choice.
And for those of you that ask why is different then regular phones or text messaging you either do not have a clue how the app works or are living in great denial to which I have got to tell you wake up its Elul stop kidding yourself and start being real
I don’t know about everyone else, but I certainly respect Rav Mazuz. The articles title and contents are lacking. The title implies that the App broke up the marriage. And the contents does not explain how the man winds up meeting this person that causes him to leave his wife. This is what causes the misunderstanding.
“And for those of you that ask why is different then regular phones or text messaging you either do not have a clue how the app works or are living in great denial“
I have it. I use it.
It’s main functionality that makes it better than regular texting is the simplicity of messaging groups which can be cumbersome with regular texting.
But any private i.e. one-to-one messages aren’t any different than standard texting.
You can send private messages to an individual in both. You can send website links in both. You can send audio recordings in both. You can send pictures in both. You can send video in both.
So my question remains.
How is whatsapp worse than regular texting?
And please don’t tell me how disrespectful I’m being, or how much the Rabbonim know and I have no right to question/discuss. I’m not questioning their knowledge or intentions. I am asking a simple question, in a respectful manner.
I am just pointing out again, everyone has given all of their svaros of why whatsapp is good or bad, but nobody has given the name of one adam gadol who permits whatsapp lechatchila. So basically everyone on the mutar side is saying since right now in the short run I see benefits and don’t see it effecting my life negatively, I am deciding that it is a good thing. No one is forcing you to listen to the Rav, but if you decide not to, the achrayus is on your head if down the line something negative comes from it. I don’t think anybody would disagree with the above statement. If someone does have a counter argument, I would like to hear it.
I would personally feel more comfortable listening to the Doctor when it comes to my health in the long run even if I don’t understand everything he is telling me right now.
adocs
on a dumb phone with text messaging do you see profile pics status pics/stories from you your entire contact list?
do you have the same ease to send picture messages as with whatsapp?
and do you have the possibility of sending a picture and then delete it from the chat?
all of these things were designed for you to be sucked in and tempt you to socialize with anyone with ease and without thinking much, unlike the traditional text message which is there simply as a short means of communication .
if you are going to insist in having whatsapp at least be educated to the choice you are making rather than follow the world.
avreichamshlomo- you completely missed my point. No one disagrees that teffilin is kadosh. But as ridiculous and far fetched as it sounds, you can G-D forbid strangle someone with the straps. Same with tzitsis strings, same with a young child choking on challah by kiddush and homotzei on shabbos kodesh. Should we not give tzedaka because there are a few situations where the organisation was fraudulent?
Just as I included the above mitzvos, which can be used for evil- Texting, phones, and the internet can be used for loshon hora, cheating on one’s spouse, nivel peh. Or it can be used sharing minyanim times, listening to shiurim, giving tzedaka to a shul on their website, providing oneself a parnasah etc.
We can all take any beautiful mitzvah and turn it into good or evil.
searchin345:
I’m no fan of Whatsapp or any other form of social media. I stay away from all of them. I think you are missing the point of some prior comments.
Everything in the world includes positive and negative aspects. And a balancing of risks versus benefits must contribute to every decision. There are those who cannot use common over-the-counter medications because the risk-benefit ration is not in their favor. Computers are not all bad, and neither are smartphones or many of their apps. They can be misused just as Palestinian terrorists used steak knives and kitchen knives to stab Jews. Should we ban kitchen knives? Hammers have also been used to commit crimes. Should we ban hammers?
The reality is that social media present a nisayon. We should not enter the zone of such nisyonos without the proper protections. In reality, many feel far more capable of handling these challenges than actually succeed, and words of caution are indicated. People need to be honest with themselves about how at-risk they might be. And such honesty might be a heavy demand for many. But Whatsapp is not a 100% danger. Someone weak in their connection to HKB”H is a 100% danger. It is tragic that we attend way too little to the personal danger, and too much to the externals. The yetzer horah who finds to opening through devices and technology will simply look elsewhere. It is a delusion to believe that the only battle we face is smartphones and apps. In fact, such an idea is purely dangerous, as we would be at serious risk by protecting ourselves from only technology.
Do you buy lottery tickets? That is a step into the world of gambling. And that involves a gigantic problem. Do you have young couples in your neighborhood, where women walk in the streets, wait for school buses, go shopping, etc. There’s a shmiras einayim issue without battery power needed. Are there liquor bottles on the tables at simchos and kiddushim? Maybe on a table in shul for those giving “tikun”? all of these present various forms and levels of risk. Ban everything?
Again, words of caution are in place, and people need to be safe in use of devices. Did Whatsapp destroy this marriage? I doubt that. The house of ill repute did not do that either for the folks who patronized it. They cheated. Whatsapp doesn’t cheat. Its users can, and it’s an easy tool to use. Address the problem, not the symptoms.
…but nobody has given the name of one adam gadol who permits whatsapp lechatchila…
Mistama the gadol that allows you to comment on YWN allows Whatsapp as well.
No, the problem is not with the rabbi nor his message. The problem is that the article was written at the fifth grade reading level, and therefore does not engender trust or confidence in the subject matter nor the message. Communicate with adults like an adult.
I am a WhatsApp user but I agree that whatsapp destroyed. It would have been much harder for that man to comit the irresponsible acts and bring to the end of gis marriage without whatsapp. Like a man that only started being unloyal when he moved to a very imoral country. Of course his wife asked forba divorce due to his imorality, but a fact is that the new imoral coutry he moved to gave him oportunities at his fingertips. And we have am inian to stay away from temptation. Even the 80 years kohen godol failed. It says dont believe (trust ) in yourself till the day of your death for a reason. It is wise to keep chat groups to a minimim. I left a cousins group because things were being joked and said there that my cousins would never say in person
Sorry for the spelling mistakes. I did not review before posting.
The little I know:
I fully agree with much of what you said. But nobody said that the only nisayon that we have is smartphones. R Mazuz gives his shiur every week and this is one of the only times he spoke about it. If it was the only problem of our generation then I am sure he would bring it up every week. It is A nisayon, and because there are other problems doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t pay attention to this one also, especially because it became something which is completely permitted in the eyes of many.
Another question really is if there is “darka achrina”, and if there is, then it makes whatsapp a clear aveirah even if the person feels like he can pass the nisayon.. The same way one who passes the area that isn’t tzanua and says he won’t look.
Emesleamito:
That is my point, I want to know if there is somebody that we are relying on. If there isn’t, I don’t care to say that this is wrong but enjoyable and hopefully one day I will stop.
orthodox jewish woman
a little chazir is just as treifa as alot of chazir