11 Responses

1. It’s mind boggling, how the Govt could think of pulling Heimishe, innocent, Lechtige Bochurim into a dangerous battlefield. Thats why all the gedolim are so united; it’s their Taayere Kinder and our Kinderlech. HKB”H should have Rachmonus.

2. Eida Chareidis has its origins in the “old Yishuv.” They were there before the zionists, and would be quite comfortable being there after the zionists. They also aren’t dependent on the government for financing. If the government tries to arrest yeshiva students, the Eida Chareidis would have no qualms about complaining to international human rights groups.

   The more interesting question is whether the pro-zionist hareidim (Shas, Agudah, Degal ha-Torah) would give up their money to oppose the medinah.

3. Mashgiach min hachalonos, meitzis min hacharakim,
   der mensh dracht in go-t lacht, Hashem watches from above and at some point says its enough, don’t dream he won’t notice your destruction of klal yisroel.
   STOP BEFORE HE STOPS YOU.

4. #1 HELLO YIRA, there are the large segment of Yeshiva Bochurim who are NOT in Yeshivos that need to be addressed. As MK Porush said, ‘as soon as I stopped learning, I went to enlist in the IDF as instructed by Rav Shach”.

   Can we expect these Heimishe, Innocent, Lechtige Bochurim who are roaming the streets, working in stores, filling up the cafes & eateries, going on tiyuling & not engaged in full-time learning to perform some national service?

5. Yira – I’ll be Dan you l’kaf zechus and assume you don’t realize what you’re saying. What you obviously did not consider is, why are only those currently sitting in Yeshivos “our teir’e kinderlach”??? Is my son, who learns and davens as much as any Frum boy his age, any less “tei’er”? WHy should he have to go to that dangerous battlefield, and not somebody else? As the Gemara says, Man Leima – who says that the blood of one is redder than the other? Or, if you want to go back to Moshe Rabeinu, “Ha’acheichem Teitze’u Lamilchama, V’atem teishvu po”?

   We can discuss the merits of someone learning and what protection that grants to Eretz Yisra’el on the Ruchniusdike level, and there are arguements on both sides. Your comment about not risking “our” ti’er’e kinder is so self-centered it’s not even funny.

   an Israeli Yid

6. #4- But if you hold that the Medinah is not established on the basis of Torah, and is/was just a bunch of Europeans coming in to steal the land from the goyim – and remember that most Israelis reject the idea that Torah gives them any special rights or duties – then how is it halachically permissable to particpate in a war of agression against the goyim? While the Eidah Hareidis tries to present their views in less confrontational ways, that is the gravamen of their position. Their supporters would prefer to say “I’m busy learning, leave me alone” (even if not 100% true) than having to walk up to the zionists and tell them not only that they are apikoresim (which the zionists already know, and are proud of), but that they are thieves and murderers, and “no”, we don’t want to help you engage in theft and murder.

   The zionists could solve the problem by recognizing the principle of conscientious objection to military service, and rely on incentive to serve rather than punishments for refusing to serve. They could also switch to a professional army (which would probably want to offer inducements to recruit hareidim, rather than rely on coercion). However conscripting hard core anti-zionists is a recipe for disaster.

7. “It’s mind boggling, how the Govt could think of pulling Heimishe, innocent, Lechtige Bochurim into a dangerous battlefield.”

   I see. So, in your estimation,it is perfectly in order for “the Govt” to send people who are not “Heimishe, innocent, Lechtige Bochurim into a dangerous battlefield”, is it?

   And then people of all political and religious opinions and persuasions wonder why secular Israelis are totally disenchanted with their more observant neighbors.

   It is the all-too overt charedi feelings of superiority over the tax-paying, army-serving secular sector, coupled with the feeling of “Oh, the chilonim are mere untermenschen; let them do all the dirty work”, that is fueling the justifiable dislike of “Heimishe, innocent, Lechtige Bochurim”.

   +++++++++++++++++++

8. Israeli Yid, then the gov’t has to make sure that the Chareidi soldiers are in an enviroment that does not contradict their values.. Freedom of religion..

   I also would not want my sons to serve in an army that takes Jews out of their homes.. I am real zionist..

9. Chareidirbs – I agree that an appropriate environment must be created, but that is something that all but the most die-hard secularists are willing to live with in order to have Chareidim in the army. The flat-out refusal of Chareidi politicians to even start to talk about the issue of Chareidim in the army is what prevents this from being addressed.

   As to not wanting to be part of an army that takes Jews from their home – the Chareidi poiticians from UTJ have said that they have no issue with “evacuating” settlements, so that’s a red herring from a Chareidi viewpoint. That’s not my view, of course – I think it a terrible thing to expel Jews from their homes in Eretz Yisrael – but based on the recent pronouncements by UTJ, that reason holds no water in preventing Chareidim serving in the army.

   As I said in my original post – there are arguments on both sides about whether or not one who is truly learning should have to serve – at least while learning. What particularly upset me about the comment I responded to was the implication that “heilige, lichtige” boys – “our” boys, as the original poster put it, are somehow worth more than those, like my son, who are not cut out for full time learning and therefore go to the army.

   an Israeli Yid

10. #6 Any country that is surrounded by enemies, been attacked over 10 times since its inception is called a COUNTRY UNDER SIEGE. A defense system must be put into place for life to continue with somewhat of a peaceful existence. Aggresion is aggresion and defensive is defensive. This has zero connection to Medinah, Zionism, Anti/Pro.., Goyim.
    Jews have lived in Israel since the times of Rabbi Akiva and confrontation versus Goyim (Romans, Greeks, Arabs, Turks, Aremenians, etc.) have been the ongoing. In the Yishuv Hayashon and then in the early settlements of Meah Shearim, Mishkenos, etc.. there were Jewish guards of duty to protect the people. Check out stories of Bostoner Rebbe z”tl about life of his parents in Arab ridden Palestine….(b4 Medinah, etc.)

11. Israeli yid
    there are many readers of yeshiva world that think your son is way greater in the eyes of hashem than the boys that cower in their neighborhoods many of them just wasting time not learning and not contributing.
    To have a boy that learns, davens and protects the people of israel , is something we look up to, and we are proud of how you raised your children