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Is there a Shidduch crisis by Chasidim? More frum girls?
I don’t know if I’d call it a crisis, but there are more frum boys, if anything.
Chasidim generally get married young, at age 17 or 18, and generally marry a spouse of the same age as themselves. So the Chosen and Kallah are both 17 or 18.
The Chasidish disparity in numbers between the number of available boys compared to girls is proportionally much smaller than that in the Litvish world. The small disparity that does exist among Chasidim is generally one of more boys than girls.
Which is why especially among the less intense Chasidim you’ll find a lot of Chasidish boys marrying non-Chasidish girls. One of the good things about this phenomenon is that it alleviates the shidduch crisis among both Chasidim and Litvaks. It’s like a double-headed victory.
Joseph: In the US, very rarely do Chasidim marry at 17. Perhaps the “Rebbishe”, but definitely not the norm.
Most Chasidim don’t listen to shidduch suggestions until 18, with some waiting till later (mostly 18 1/2 or sometimes 19). Engagements do occasionally happen at 17, when one is l almost 18. And since many Chasidic engagements span about 8 months, whatever the age then, they’re usually married closer to 19-20. Of course many marry later, as “Der mentsch tracht & G-t lacht”.
A big part of the shidich crisis in general is that many boys and girls dress in a very ultra yeshivish way when in essence they arent so, , giving people and shadchonim the wrong impression of themselves. The reason they do this is usually because of parents pressures or because of social pressures.
I have a 2 cousins who refuse to show thier friends and shadchonim thier tru colors for fear of social pressures. Both dress literally black and white when they really aremt black and white . Both are in thier 30’s
Hopefully they will wake sooner then laterPlot twist: there’s no actual crisis
In Israel Chassidim generally marry at 17/18.
With the way the shiddich system is set up today , especially among yeshivish should not come as as a surprise where it caused a crissis.
Aside from Chasidim, the Yeshivish have the smallest shidduch crisis. Other demographics that use different shidduch systems wish they had it as good as the Yeshivish.
These generalizations only feed idle chatter. Anyone have a broad enough experience for an impression that has any validity? How about some formal study to determine whether there actually is a problem.
The original post and most of the comments are tragically primitive. First present me with facts, then we will have a discussion.
And if a scientific or formal survey is impractical to conduct, the problem should be ignored, allowed to fester and assumed non-existing in the absence of proof?
“And if a scientific or formal survey is impractical to conduct, the problem should be ignored, allowed to fester and assumed non-existing in the absence of proof?”
sounds like a plan
Joseph:
Before trying to understand or address a problem, we must first ascertain there is one. To dream one up, then open a thread in the CR, and create a castle in the sky, is an exercise in fiction creation. As in a library, it has its location, and may even have its popularity. But that doesn’t create a reality.
Maybe this ounce of metaphor helps explain what I commented earlier.
Joseph,
Speaking of letting things fester.
You guys are the kings of festering.You guys are the kings of festering.
What would be the Hebrew word or phrase for “king of festering”?
TLIK: You didn’t address the question. If a scientific or formal survey is virtually impossible or cost prohibitive to conduct, and the problem or potential problem has horrible ramifications, do we ignore it since we cannot provide scientific proof of the problem?
you are aware, I assume, that just because you believe there is a problem, that doesn’t mean that there is a problem. So if there isn’t one, it won’t fester.
If you contend that there isn’t a problem of a disparity between males and females in shidduchim, simply state your position please. (And provide the same proof you insist upon, if any, for those with the opposite opinion.) If you agree there may be such a disparity, but are uncertain, so state.
If there is a disparity then the ramifications are bad, all will likely agree. As such, if you are uncertain, why would you knock down those trying to alleviate what you’ll agree may be a big problem? Should those potentially suffering continue to suffer due to your uncertainty? Should the issue be swept under the rug and those pointing it out shouted down because of a lack of (cost prohibitive and likely impractical) formal studies?
There are also no scientific or formal studies of any alleged domestic or child abuse problem in the Orthodox community. Should we, too, be dismissive of it?
Joseph:
There isn’t even anecdotal data from normal observers that there is a problem. You’re getting ridiculous. Frankly, carrying on a conversation with a toddler is more productive than this back and forth here.
I don’t expect scientific data. There isn’t a valid hypothesis to launch any such project. Let’s start with a research model. You ask a question, and provide some background (literature, previous studies, etc.) to support the position. You then create the design to obtain the data to either prove or disprove the hypothesis. Nothing acceptable has happened for step one. I can create many scenarios that might have their place in fiction novels. Just what do you think sci-fi is?
TLIK: All your same points can be made regarding the claim made by some that there’s more than a nominal problem with domestic, child or sex abuse. There’s less evidence of such issues than evidence of a shidduch crisis. I challenge you to provide evidence the former is a more pervasive issue than the latter, since I know such proof doesn’t exist and at most you’ll come up with an excuse to avoid answering this request.
Do you and others derive some pleasure in constantly invoking the notion of a “shidduch crisis” which is not only untrue but only increases the stress on unmarried young men and women who either haven’t yet found their beschert or have chosen to delay kiddushin to pursue graduate study or professional advancement. Just lighten up and stop this constant drumbeat of a “crisis”.
Joseph:
A little intellect, please.
A problem exists when it is observed, not put together by a pile of words on a page. I live within a chassidic community, and associate with chassidim of various groups, locally and elsewhere. As with any community, there will be individuals with a variety of problems, some involving mental health, medical, OTD, shalom bayis, shidduchim, machlokes, and many more. We are not addressing individual problems that require specific solutions. The insinuation was that there is something at the tzibbur level, and that this needs to be understood and addressed. I have not had any reason to believe that there is anything at all relevant to a community, not formal scientific study, nor even any accumulation of anecdotal information. So before I entertain the hypothesis that there is a problem to examine, first show me something convincing that there is an issue to study. I do not set a standard of scientific study. But just something.
This reminds me of an old witticism about a Brisker talmid that asked a serious question about a Rambam? His chavrusah pointed out to him that the Rambam actually does not say what was being used to create the question. His retort was, “That’s no way to say a teretz on a shverrer Rambam”. It is ridiculous to fabricate a problem, and then challenge those who cannot find reason to justify it because of the serious implications.
Let’s try this in really simple words. There is no such shidduch crisis in the chasidisshe community. Case closed. Now, המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה.
Joseph:
We know there is a problem with the child abuse issue. That has been demonstrated in accumulated anecdotal data, and there is even more formal data from surveys among mental health professionals. It may not be enough to give reliable statistics of exactly how prevalent it is. I strongly believe the pronouncement by the “activists” that it is dangerous for a Jewish child to attend yeshiva is baseless, and even destructive. No, I don’t get impressed with the media coverage of the incidents that do get reported. So it is important to give the issue its day, because there are system issues at play that must be fixed. If a rebbe bullies my kid, that may be an individual issue for me, but it places the entire class at risk, and needs to be solved at the system level.
You effort to compare the real to the fabrication is not accepted.
TLIK – so well said.
Josephs insertion of the child abuse topic was verification that he is in this for the cheppering and not any genuine interest in the topic. Thefe is no legitamate excuse to compare a group of children who were physically violated, to a group of singles all over the globe not yet being married. I think ill throw in global warming as proof we have a molestation problem because people arent taking that seriously either so they must both be the same.TLIK:
1. The issue with a shidduch crisis is notably more pronounced in the Yeshivish/Litvish community than in the Chasidish community. I should have been clearer about this point. Most of my points above relate to the non-Chasidish community much more.
2. In that context, the shidduch crisis is notably more pronounced than any child abuse crisis. The shidduch crisis, to borrow your language, has been demonstrated in accumulated anecdotal data. If you want to assert that there’s any notable community child abuse crisis, something that’s never been demonstrated other than individual, sporadic cases, not at the tzibbur level. So before we entertain the hypothesis that there is an abuse problem to examine, first show us something convincing that there is an issue to study.
Syag: Being an older single is a pain that continues everyday. Therapy can at most reduce but not eliminate such pain. The cure is marriage. A survivor, survived. He probably needs therapy but the hardest part is generally behind him. He can hope to look forward with the past being a bygone and the future one of potential bliss.
It is presumptuous to claim a survivor looking forward having already survived his ordeal has it worse than an older single who suffers every day.
That has been demonstrated in accumulated anecdotal data, and there is even more formal data from surveys among mental health professionals.
The same assertion can be made regarding shidduchim, just substitute the word “shadchanim” for “mental health professionals”.
Joseph, it’s silly to compare the two subjects and opine which is worse.
Stick to pointing out that the threshold for accepting anecdotal evidence is being applied unevenly. There’s nothing to be gained, though, by comparing the pain people must endure. When you say A is worse than B, it only comes across as unfairly and ignorantly minimizing the pain of B.
Joseph, it’s silly to compare the two subjects and opine which is worse.
Stick to pointing out that the threshold for accepting anecdotal evidence is being applied unevenly. There’s nothing to be gained, though, by comparing the pain people must endure. When you say A is worse than B, it only comes across as unfairly and ignorantly minimizing the pain of B.
I agree with you completely, DY. My goal in my last comment was to make the same point you just made, in response to comments that implied one was worse than the other. By making the reverse argument paradoxically, even though I don’t subscribe to it, I wanted to point out it is equally silly.
Being an older single is a pain that continues everyday. Therapy can at most reduce but not eliminate such pain. The cure is marriage. A survivor, survived. He probably needs therapy but the hardest part is generally behind him. He can hope to look forward with the past being a bygone and the future one of potential bliss.
That is, hands down, the dumbest, stupidest, most ignorant, heartless, clueless comment you have ever trolled in all your years. Mamesh brainless!
My goal in my last comment was to make the same point you just made
no, your goal in that last comment was to be a jerk. And even knowing that, I still couldn’t let it go because of the damage you can and do do to countless readers. You got your way buddy, as pathetic as it is, you won this time.
You know what? I used to think you were just ignorant of the suffering of these victims. That last comment makes me wonder if perhaps you might be a contributor!
My goal in my last comment was to make the same point you just made, in response to comments that implied one was worse than the other.
Baloney. Had you meant to agree with me, you would have ignored the analogy regarding the severity of suffering, or just said it’s irrelevant to the point you were making.
Instead, you decided to minimize the tremendous suffering of victims of abuse.
I think Joseph is trying to say that there’s a difference between a problem and a crisis.
Joseph once again is showing his true colors. This shouldn’t surprise anyone. Its just another day for joseph to spew his insane and dangerous comments into Cyber space
“A survivor, survived. He probably needs therapy but the hardest part is generally behind him. He can hope to look forward with the past being a bygone and the future one of potential bliss.”
Joseph,
Anyone who can troll such an insensitive and inane comment should not count on being forgiven by those who are hurt by it. Even if said troll is the first person to bump the CR’s “forgiveness” thread every year in a sad and futile attempt to check that box.
Without the Coffee Room there is no Joseph. Without Joseph there is no Coffee Room.
An exerpt from a letter written by a survivor posted on jewish community watch:
Posted on August 23, 2018
Dear Rabbonim,
[…]
While I agree that smart phones without a filter can be a potential danger, it doesn’t come close to the physical, emotional and religious danger of abusing a vulnerable minor. At worst, the victim will either commit suicide or go off the derech and at best they would live their life as a frum Jew but everyday would be a struggle to get through the day. Every day would be a new battle necessitating new gear to plow through yet another day of the devastating effects of abuse. Another day of triggers and flashbacks that have such extreme power.I know this battle because I’m a soldier fighting in its war every single day. No, I didn’t end my life. No, I didn’t go off the derech. No, I didn’t get into drugs or other pain numbing behaviors. Instead I chose to fight the battles head on. They don’t stop and don’t get easier. It takes years and years until there is a slightly noticeable difference in the severity of the battles. Yes, every day is a battle as there is not a day that goes by that I don’t struggle from my childhood abuse.
[……]When was the last time you had a nightmare and woke up sweating and had a migraine all day from the nightmare? When was the last time you had a trigger experience while driving and needed to pull over to cry it out? When was the last time you felt so overwhelmed with grief and sadness that you wanted to just end your life? This and so much more is what we go through each and every day.
This has nothing to do with the “shidduch crisis”.
What’s there to talk about?
Litvaks marry at an age gap. That means, assuming a growing population, there will be a surplus of the younger gender. No need for a survey; it’s very easily mathematically provable.If Chassidim don’t do it, they won’t have the same surplus.
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