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I have attendet a get together of many frum yidden. ashkenazim, sfardim, chasidim of all groups chabad satmar belz bobov gur etc., litvish, very frum, frum, modern, etc. etc. and there such achdus and love amongs everyone. so much acceptence of each other, no judging anyone at all. it was so beautiful and uplifting.
I think we can do this all year round if we focuse on what we have in common. and we have alot in common, much more then our diferences.What was the meeting about?
Agreed
I would comment here if I only knew how…
Knaidlach, since you accused everyone of “feeling guilty”, I’ll just go ahead and not spare your feelings. People didn’t reply because your post is incoherent.
Chabadshlucha:
This topic reminds of a question I have. If a local member of the community and a regular visitor to the Chabad House, who happens to be a non-observant Jew, invites a Chabad Rabbi and his wife to dinner at the community member’s house, what does the Rabbi do?
A related quesiion would concern inviting the Chabad Rabbi to attend a Shabbos service at a local Reform temple, at which the non-observant Jew’s son is celebrating becoming a Bar Mitzvah. How would the Chabad Rabbi respond?
Yevamos daf 13 explains this beautifully. Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel both kept to their respective rulings about tzaras erva but respected the families of the other side and trusted them. Of course there’s no such gemara about Beis Shammai and the tzeddukim who weren’t in the geder of eilu va’eilu.
knaidlach:
So specifically how would the Rabbi respond to the invitation(s)? Would he say, “No!!! Your food does not meet my standards!”? And, “No, I cannot attend a religious service at your fake synagogue!!!”?
Knaidlach,
1. What about someone who does not want to be called a Yid, either because he wants to leave knows that the word is often a pejorative, wants to Jargon to philologists or is a proud non-Ashkenazi?
2. See Pitchei Teshuva YD 116:10 that there is an opinion that someone who does not accept an observant Jew’s word that his food is kosher is a heretic as he opposes Chazal, who said that a single witness is believed regarding prohibitions. As for his kashrut not being up to “your standard”, what about one’s standard in ben adam l’chaveiro, avoiding mechzi k’yuheira, etc.?
Whew, OK good. It looks like people have finally started fighting. I was worried this thread about achdus would actually stay cordial…
Knaidlach, it’s just a couple of typos and periods as commas, but to those who are used to reading properly punctuated writings, it can be very disconcerting. It’s like hearing someone speak with the wrong intonation.
If the meeting about chasidus, it is great that they can have unity. So unity about what?
If the unity comes about an agreement that Torah comes from Hashem no big deal they have unity. Also if there is one G-d unity is ensured.
If unity is that knaidlach are good, I agree.
We can create unity among the different groups according the writing of Rav Eliyohu Dessler in Mchtav Eliyohu saying that every group serves Hashem with their nature, some are cold and some are warm. There are different ways of serving Him. The importance is to serve Him and not how we serve Him.
Avi K,
“1. What about someone who does not want to be called a Yid, either because he wants to leave knows that the word is often a pejorative, wants to Jargon to philologists or is a proud non-Ashkenazi?”
That’s fine. You certainly don’t have to use the word, and you can politely request people to not use the word when referring to you. At the end of the day, however, reasonable people acknowledge that there is a diversity of cultures within the Jewish people, and have the ability to respect those cultural differences, which include language.
I find it sad that you define your identity as being “non” something. It’s better to be “for” something. Being proud of your own culture is wonderful. But do you think Hashem wants you to distance yourself from your brethren and sow discord among them? Over things like “Yidden” and “Gut Shabbos”?
“2. See Pitchei Teshuva YD 116:10 that there is an opinion that someone who does not accept an observant Jew’s word that his food is kosher is a heretic as he opposes Chazal, who said that a single witness is believed regarding prohibitions.”
Hold your heretic hurling horses there. DovidBT and knaidlach were very clearly talking about non-observant Jews.
“As for his kashrut not being up to “your standard”, what about one’s standard in ben adam l’chaveiro, avoiding mechzi k’yuheira, etc.?”
Knaidlach wrote: “achdus means that you show that any yid is special to you and you love him and you are friendly.” What more do you want? Should I eat bacon at a Reform Jew’s house to satisfy bein adam l’chaveiro? Also, doesn’t bein adam l’chaveiro include things like not making a fellow Jew feel bad for saving ‘sav’ instead of ‘tav’, or wishing someone a freilechen Purim?
I don’t know every shliach – they each have to deal with each situation according to halacha and with tact- and they are trusted to do so on their own – there is no shliach manual that goes through every conceivable situation –
That being said, I know shluchim who for that reason don’t eat at anyone’s houses as a policy so they don’t get into sticky situations. Others will eat by mekuravim / completely frum ones, and in the case above, some will accept but make it very clear whats acceptable such as eating in Plastics, foods that would work like bagels and lox with acceptably hashgacha that are opened only after the Rabbi arrives
We invited an intermarried couple for Shabbos and they wanted to invite us back, but we explained the kashrus issues would be too complicated for a shabbos meal. They still wanted to host back so they ended up paying for a catered shabbos from a caterer I chose and they brought wine and pastries from a local acceptable bakery…
As to your second situation, the Rabbi would be unable to attend, and would convey that in a nice polite way. Would depend on the person to see where it goes from there, whether he takes it as accepted because the Rabbi is frum so it makes sense, or they get into a discussion about loving every Jew doesn’t mean condoning wrong philosophies.
And sometimes people will be upset but that’s life.
I remember a story of a lady whose husband had paid a major amount towards building the Chabad house and she walked in on shabbos and told the Rabbi that the mechitza was too high and he needs to lower it. He said he wouldn’t and she said her husband wouldn’t donate anymore and walked out in a huff.
The amazing thing about being a shliach is that although it’s really difficult building a donor base in the beginning and fundraising, at the end of the day, the Rabbi doesn’t need to answer to any board so he can stick to his principles with allot less pressure than someone who stands to be fired although he may lose donors.
One last story that really impressed me in this area is this: a Rabbi once wrote to the Rebbe and asked him if he could compromise on the mechitza, because his congregation really wasn’t going for it and they were threatening him that if he refused to compromise on mechitza, then they will just replace him with a conservative Rabbi, so he thought maybe it’s worth compromising to avoid a greater loss for them.
The Rebbe responded that if he compromises on the mechitza than he will be the Conservative Rabbi…
@ Avi K
“See Pitchei Teshuva YD 116:10 that there is an opinion that someone who does not accept an observant Jew’s word that his food is kosher is a heretic as he opposes Chazal, who said that a single witness is believed regarding prohibitions. As for his kashrut not being up to “your standard”, what about one’s standard in ben adam l’chaveiro, avoiding mechzi k’yuheira, etc.”What exactly is it about upholding your community’s or family’s custom in Kashrus would make you heretical, machzi k’yuhara, and lacking love of another Jew?
@ Avram in MD
“Hold your heretic hurling horses there. DovidBT and knaidlach were very clearly talking about non-observant Jews”And if they where talking about Observant Jews would you agree with Ai K’s statement?
Thanks for answering my question. 🙂
Avram, respecting diversity includes respecting my right to object to a word, make fun of Jargon, etc.
NP, a custom against Chazal has no status. What if someone’s family custom were to drive to shul on Shabbat? In any case, as I wrote, there are other mitzvot involved and, IMHO, they push off some family chumra. If he wants to be a big machmir let him do a hattarat nedarim and then keep it b”n except in extenuating circumstances. Rav David (HaNazir) Cohen’s son Rav Shaar Yishuv did this regarding nezirut and then abandoned it at age sixteen.
Pirkey Avos says: Al Tischabeir L’Rosho! There is no such thing as achdus with people who deny the Ikkarim such as reform and conservative ‘rabbi’s’ etc. since they have removed themselves from klal Yisroel. Of course it is a Mitzvah to bring back the members of these comgregations to Judaism but their leaders are machti es horabim and off limits.
Yanky, which definition of rasha do we use? According to Rambam (Hilchot Teshuva 3:1) he is someone whose aveirot outweigh his mitzvot. According to the Mechaber (SA CM 34:2-3) he is someone who has knowingly violated any halacha and not done teshuva . The Baal haTanya (Likutei Amarim c. 11) has a more general definition that we cannot know: someone whose animal soul is more powerful than his divine soul. It would seem that many frum Jews at least fit the Mechaber’s definition: those who cheat on their taxes, run scams, say lashon hara for starters.
As for members of other movements and their leaders, the former are all tinokkot shenishbu. Even most of the leaders are in that category. I once heard a Conservative (if I remember correctly she was clergy) ask why it matters how many melachot one does with one action being that one can only be killed once. Apparently she never even heard of a chattat.
Avi K well the Baal Hatanya says that the tzaddik and the beinoni look the same from the outside, both appear to be frum Yidden only the tzaddik has no yeitzer hora anymore (since his nefesh habahamis takes pleasure in serving the nefesh haelokis). So according to every single one of your opinion you brought down, they are reshoyim. Sure some other ‘frum’ Yidden can also fall into the category of a rosho but this does not mean it’s ok. The leaders of this movement are NOT tinokei shenishba. They looked at the chumash and read what’s there. Moreover there are several poskim in who say there are no tinokei shenishba in EY. But in America there are obviously many, however reform and especially conservative rabbi’s are NOT tinokei shenishba and we have to stop using that term to (in a naive way) cover up for these reshoyim, as R’ Chaim Brisker said: a nebech apikoros is still an apikoros.
Non Political,
“And if they where talking about Observant Jews would you agree with Ai K’s statement?”
That would depend on your definition of observant. Additionally, there are situations where I can simultaneously accept an observant Jew’s word that his food is kosher and not be able to eat it due to my minhagim. An obvious example of this would be rice during Pesach.
Avi K,
“Avram, respecting diversity includes respecting my right to object to a word, make fun of Jargon, etc.”
There is no legitimate Jewish culture predicated on making fun of other Jews. Sorry. What is hateful to you, do not do to others.
And that is the difference between those you call everyone a Rasha and those who use the term “Not yet Frum”
“Pirkey Avos says: Al Tischabeir L’Rosho! There is no such thing as achdus with people who deny the Ikkarim such as reform and conservative ‘rabbi’s’ etc. since they have removed themselves from klal Yisroel. Of course it is a Mitzvah to bring back the members of these comgregations to Judaism but their leaders are machti es horabim and off limits.”
Thought you may find it interesting to know the Rebbe made a clear distinction between the reform ‘Rabbi’ as a clergy member, and as a person.
The Rebbe simultaneously encouraged shluchim to mekarev then as individual yidden when they talk to them, or invite them over,because theyre Hashem’s child who deserves to be brought back.
However, simultaneously, we are never to give legitimacy to the false ideologies by sitting with them on a panel of clergymen, entering their temples etc.
@dovidbt @knaidlach you’re most welcome. And hatzlocha in your holy work as well – were all here as Hashem’s shluchim to the planet. Ksiva Vachasima Toiva lshana toiva umesuka.
Avi, so you’re proudly not Ashkenaz, but you would call someone a rashah if he refused to eat Ashkenaz meat because he only eats Beit Yosef?
I don’t know why I’m dignifying your ramblings with a response. Just wanted to point out that inconsistency.
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