Reply To: Spin-off topic: Religion and Moral and/or Law & ordered society

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Spin-off topic: Religion and Moral and/or Law & ordered society Reply To: Spin-off topic: Religion and Moral and/or Law & ordered society

#1491776
ubiquitin
Participant

“The bottom line is, in reality, without recognition of an Absolute Authority, you have no right to impose your view of morality on me. ”

Except that your nice shtickel leads to the exact opposite conclusion. You correctly identify chazal:

““Ilmalei Moreh Malchus, Ish Es Rei-aihu Chayim B’lo’o.”
“If not for fear of The King, Men would completely swallow up their neighbors alive”.”

Yes a leadership is necessary to create law and order. Note Chazal do NOT say “if not for religion men would completely swallow their neighbor alive” Because that just isnt true.

“Observant Jews recognize that the Torah is objectively TRUE.”
Yes , though that isnt the discussion.

“The Torah view is that we only know that one is not allowed to kill, because Hashem says so in His Torah”
No that is YOUR view. The Torah view is the exact opposite. chazal Divide Mitzvos into categories: Eidos, chukim and Mishpatim. Mishpatim are those rules that we would determine on our own were reasonable, the classic example is murder (Yoma 67:. Thus Chazal explicitly tell us that there can (and should be) a measure of morality independent of the Torah ).