Marriage?

The wife’s salary belongs to the husband.

The wife’s salary belongs to the husband.

And in exchange, the husband is obligated to support his wife.

Surely that’s what you meant, right Joseph?

First of all, I don’t know about the store you work in, but hearing someone say “store” sounds bummy. Unless it’s sefarim or suit store…most of the stores where I live are manned by bums, not the type of people looking for a marriage. Definitely not wearing black and white.

Let’s say he is a great guy, works in a store, wears black and white, learns every morning or evening, works in a good environment, has a rav, and a million other things I check out for everyone, than why not?

My question is if he is planning on making parnassah for 7-15 people, he needs a better job later on. So…why shouldn’t he spend the time now, when he is single and doesn’t desperately need the money to focus on excpanding his abilities and talents, so he could make more money in the future.

Don’t marry someone you aren’t attracted to. Getting married is a very important mitzvah. You have to do your best to find a girl. There are frum girls who want working guys. Maybe that is more common in out of town cities so it may be worth traveling for dates. It’s a hard situation and the shidduch crisis is also for boys not just girls.

Most threads have a mixture of comments, some nice and informative, others superficial, and even stupid. I see three comment son this thread, and I have not merited reading something rational and respectable.

Firstly, marriage is something that is dear and precious, a huge portion of the continuity of Klal Yisroel, and a truly holy mission. The Torah also tells us about the failed marriage, with the parsha of gittin. The surrounding issues of marriage, finances, the circumstances of the family, etc. are all potential sources of challenge and conflict, as well as potential sources of great joy, simcha, and nachas. Marriage creates the completion of the individual. All this stuff is plentiful in seforim, and I do not need to copy and paste anything here. We can all find the material.

As for the income, it is not an unimportant issue, but it is a secondary one. Many of us may know someone who was wealthy, but in an unhappy marriage. Gehinom on earth. We might also know someone who has a difficult financial situation, but has a happy family. Who would you rather socialize with? Who would you rather be?

Lastly, the wife’s salary belongs to the husband. There is some truth to this statement. But there is more myth to the way things are portrayed by that statement. This depends on much, it is a takonas Chachomim, but within a context of other takanos. When the “salary belongs to the husband” issue gets raised, there is a troublesome situation going on, and being small-minded enough to deal with that without addressing the need for a couple to live in peace, harmony, and affection, is a disservice. I have observed countless people who consult with non-professionals (such as the overwhelming majority of well-intentioned rabbonim) only to get piskei halacha thrown at them. This is a huge problem that contributes handsomely to the scourge of gittin. Once we enter the divisive approach of “this is mine, not yours”, we feed the barriers between a husband and wife. You cannot call this shalom bayis. It certainly defies the great virtue we speak of every morning when we list אלו דברים שאדם אוכל פירותיהם העולם הזה והקרו קיימת לו לעולם הבא, when we list הבאת שלום בין איש לאשתו. Getting into the mode of “You’re right”, is one of the ingredients of the problem. Am I the only one that recognizes the stupidity of just doing more of the conflict that divides them?

The place we need to be with the financial issues of a couple is, “We have financial burdens that we need to resolve,” not me against you.

TLIK, instead of being a cosmopolitan Jew, try living like a shtetl Yid.

Joseph:

“instead of being a cosmopolitan Jew, try living like a shtetl Yid.”

Not sure what you want. If I lived in the shtetl, and had ch”v a medical issue, I would not seek help from the rov, shammes, shneider, or vasser treiger. I would do as most would do, travel into the city, and consult with a professional.

What do you mean by cosmopolitan Jew?

@litvishechossid.

1. I made this account when I was 14. I haven’t the faintest memory or idea why I have this username. But people here know me as this, so I haven’t changed it.

2. I live in Israel, my own family and most people I know live month by month, with limited money, getting one outfit for pseach and one for sukkos. Please don’t throw accusations around me, all I did was say what I personally think when I hear a bochur works in a store.

3. Most of the people working in stores over here are etheopians, arabs, and people who aren’t frum. It may very well be different else where, besides sefarim, suit stores, telephone stores…and maybe in the supermarkets, most of the workers are what I said above, at least in the area I live in. This is not only what I see, but everyone else in my city. If you live in a place where they are bochurim stacking shelves in the local dollar store, than great!

4. Black and white is a separate topic, regardless of whatever the bochur is doing. That’s something I’d check out with anyone, a store working bochur is no different.

5. Wait, you can’t afford to stay in yeshiva? Is the tuition too high? All I want is someone who learns. Whether it’s a shuir, by himself, chavrusa, with his rabbi, in the amazon rainforest, I don’t care. I never said anything about yeshivah. But if someone is NOT in yeshivah, I would like to know why, that’s all. Not such an insane request…is it?

6. 7-15 people…Um, you, your wife, and 5 kids is 7. I believe 5 is the average frum family in Israel. I’m being realistic. My neighbor’s oldest child is 6, and they have 4, and they have 5 kids. Who is to say that will not happen to me? It’s not my cheshbon. Also, my family is going to be paying ZERO support. Nothing, zilch. So….rent, food, everything will be on my husband. I will definitely help out as much as I can, but once I have kids, I need to first be a mother.

I hope you understand me clearer now.

but a genuine good guy who does work and makes enough for the time being but doesn’t have an exclusive career, why is that so bad?

What happens after “the time being”?

This is where Bitachon comes in

So you’re saying girls should be willing to marry a guy with no forseeable way to support her long-term, and just have bitachon that it will work out? Who’s being the picky one now?

“First of all, I don’t know about the store you work in, but hearing someone say “store” sounds bummy”
I work in a store.

Question-obviously the cost of living and other expenses vary depending on location etc.

How much do you (the commenters) think a couple needs to start out with?
How much do you think one needs to make in 5 years? 10 years?

I know that it will vary greatly, but what are ballpark figures?

“…most of the stores where I live are manned by bums, not the type of people looking for a marriage. Definitely not wearing black and white.”

Cannot fathom how you can write a paragraph like this without realizing how judgemental and offensive it comes across.

“Now that i come to think of it, having a “degree” and a “plan” and being broke, is just so much better than having an actual job that brings in enough cash to support.”

Actually, it might be better to start with a degree and a plan over an actual job that brings in enough cash for now. The reason being that the right degree can help land a job that brings in enough cash now as well as in the future when living expenses are much higher. A non-professional job that doesn’t require a degree might not have the same earning potential.

As far as cost of living, it most certainly depends on where a family lives but $35K-$40K to start with seems like a good ball park figure. Five years down the road could mean three kids and by the time ten years passes there could be at least six. At that point tuition becomes a big budget item and you might need at least $100K in many communities.

I know of two guys personally that are in the construction business.
Both are pretty serious guys.
The first one got married not long after he started.
The same thing happened to the second one. (he’s currently engaged) He is Bucharian, and his kallah is related to him somehow. I suspect some would say that doesn’t count.

Is a serious guy in a brick-and-mortar store so different than these guys?
Both were in-towners in an OOT yeshiva.

Syag and Goq: I re-explained myself in my last post. It’s true I live in a large frum community and there’s many frum, respectable people working in stores. Perhaps I just immediately think of the stores I see often, like cofix, the local supermarket, baazar strauss, etc,

But yes, you guys are correct. It really depends what store, but if you do not give any details, where the store is, what the sell, what type of clients they have, my mind hears store and goes to the etheopian women stacking baby socks at baazar strauss, or the arabs stocking shelves at the supermarket, or the nonreligious young men manning the majority of cofizz and cofix stands.

Syag
Yes it’s judgemental. So what. Humans are judgmental. She is commenting on her opinion of who to spend the rest of her life with. She should reserve judgement??? She even went so far as to explain herself what I thought was pretty obvious. Most minimum wage menial jobs are filled by people that she would not want to spend the rest of her life in private company with.
She did not say she talks down to them when she goes shopping. She did not say she treats them with disdain.
Someone stocking grocery shelves, unless they are a friend or relative of the owner, In which case it’s usually getting paid to help out not a career, is usually not someone in the upper strata of society. That’s a fact. Does no good to deny it and nothing wrong with anonymously expressing your feelings that you would not want to marry them.

It is interesting how many posts here are from working guys who can’t get a shiduch. It supports my argument that the boys don’t all have lists. Only the learners and those who pretend to be do. And the girls who are on wait list are there because they insist on the learning boy. It’s not because there are more women than men and not because there are more good women than men. The working boys get lost in the fray and not enough people are looking after them.

I wouldn’t say that I can’t get a shidduch….
I haven’t started yet, as I’m currently in the middle of taking a course in computers.
Be”H I hope to get a job in IT, then start.

Although I am a little nervous about shidduchim, I have come a long way as to accepting that I’m not a full time learner.

Thank you klugeryid.

The little i know- i don’t agree, the learning boys i know simply see the importance of their learning and view it as their role in life, i believe the boys your talking about that “kvetchy a bonk” lack something in their middos and priorities in life, they are definitely not the majority.