Dear YW,
I want to point out to your readers, both from my perspective as well as from my spouse’s, that more and more we are getting nudged, bumped, and flat out pushed, from the opposite gender during our shopping experiences.
Yes, I am talking about when we are in Frum stores (usually selling food), that have Frum, Yeshivishe customers. I try not to take up space, and I wait in an orderly fashion, and after my turn I try to get out of the way, but no matter what preventive measures I take, it seems that someone ultimately bumps into me.
Obviously this is all unintentional; which is exactly my point.
I want to bring it to your readers attention that they should be more careful, no, much more careful in these “tight squeezes.”
If we tell it to non-Jews that we can’t shake hands etc.., then surely would should take good care to be Shomer Negeya amongst ourselves!
Maybe I (and others who notice this) should hand out little card size pieces of paper to politely remind people who bump, brush, and nudge into me, that what they are doing is Asur, and definitely avoidable.
Thank you YW for your excellent website,
Squished in the Bagel Store.
Join the official YWN WhatsApp status
38 Responses
I’m surprised this person even noticed! Most people don’t seem to care at all. Tziyus is the name of the game and it is pretty watered down now-a-days. Perhaps some added awareness will help with this issue. Hashem should have mercy on us even due to our aveiros!
As you noted, it’s obviously unintentional. Shaking hands with someone (putting aside my personal opinion of kavod habrios) is intentional and you can therefore prevent it etc. Bumping into people in a store is like riding a bus or train, everyone is “squished in the bagel store” and it’s probably an issue (for those that it’s an issue for) that won’t get resolved – unless they make seperate shopping hours (nothing is off the table)
I too have seen an ever increasing number of “gender benders” in our local stores. Coupled with the all-too-often missing “excuse me” or “I am sorry” adds to the disappointment and shock.
However, calling this lack of midos and common courtesy assur is perhaps misplaced and a bit false. Rude, perhaps. Careless and selfish, maybe. Issur of negi’ah, I am not sure.
HOWEVER, what is even ruder, selfish, but FAR from careless, is the lack of dignity and self-respect to with we are exposed in these same stores. Ever sinking necklines, and ever rising hemlines and sleeve lengths are clear breeches in very basic laws of modesty. There is no question as to the provocative nature of these styles. Many men wishing to help their wives who selflessly do so much to help them keep their learning, davenning, and work schedules, venture out to do the shopping and various errands only to be surrounded by the very same obstacles they are working so hard to avoid. The advertisements we fight to have taken off our busses and the pictures we don’t allow in our houses through various forms of printed and electronic media, are right there in front of our eyes in our very own places of business.
The issurim both genders transgress are numerous. The effect is long lasting.
Perhaps both the rudeness described by the writer and the lack of dignity described above are related. In both cases we are screaming for attention, to be noticed. But the more attention received, the greater the feeling of not being fulfilled.
We, the Jewish people, the people who sit “betach badad,” can feel fulfilled only when carry ourselves in the quiet, dignified manner of the tzelem E-lokim – men and women alike. HaShem’s existence does not depend on ANYTHING. So too the Jew’s existence. Our essence is our neshamos not our finite, mortal bodies. The way we dress, and yes the way we behave in our stores and behind the wheels of our car should protect our essence.
One of the great educators of the last generation commented that the greatest test this generation will face will be recognizing the fact that atah b’chartanu m’kol ha’amim.
The idea of handing out little cards is one I have thought about for many years. Perhaps they should contain a summary of the laws of dignity. BUT EVEN MORE IMPORTANT. Perhaps before we leave our houses to go to work or to go shopping, pick up our children, whatever, we should HAND OURSELVES A CARD that says ATAH B’CHARTANU M’KOL HA’AMIM.
first b4 commenting here i showed your article to a local posek and my rosh yeshiva; ybl”c harav chaim stein shlit”a. it seems that this brushing or umping, being that it is unintentional and 90 percent of people dont even register in their mind that someone brushed them would not be assur due to shomer negia. however it should still be avoided as it is rude and immoral to push people around.
in my long experience, almost anymore men and women gather there has been squishing. The more crowded the place (and more commonly in New York CItyand/or in more modern places), the more it has happened to me despite excuse me’s and uncomfortably squeezed to a side. The women, even married, become “like family”.
Interestingly, it is much less likely in formal business situations with Yidden or Gentiles where people have acted more constrained.
There should be separate lines for men and women.
There is no issur involved if one has absolutely no intention. But it IS an issue of midos to be more careful not to bump others and to be more patient and say excuse me even to the opposite gender rather than push through.
Maybe it needs to be stressed that Tzniyus is not just wearing clothes that happen to cover this and that…. it’s a way of life— a way of acting, speaking, dressing and even thinking.
Unfortunately, our modern day pressures cause many of us to lose sight of the real important things and concentrate on “details” instead. All too often, our “heart” is left out and we are just being like robots.
May Hashem be with us and help us overcome all of our modern-day issues, speedily, Amen.
….or we can issue a Kol Koreh prohibiting women from leaving their homes, riding on a bus, driving a car, wearing anything but a burka in public and make the Five Towns into another Saudi Arabia.
Unfortunately, such is the mindset of a person desperate for food that they don’t pay attention to the people around them. I’m surprised no one has brought up the usual rugby scrum that takes place at smorgasboards and kiddushim.
Years ago I used to go shopping in a “more frum” neighborhood for groceries, because the prices were so much cheaper. In this neighborhood I was pushed and shoved all through the grocery store. I laugh at the fact that this guy behind me kept on pushing me from behind with his shopping cart!
Now I shop locally in the Five Towns. Maybe the Olem thinks we are not so “znius, and or frum” here. But no one pushes and shoves here. I see people are courteous and respectful. We don’t seem to need cards with instructions how to behave, and or separate shopping hours, we have menchlikite.
… or we can promote general good manners, the “i’m sorrys” and “excuse me’s” and that it isn’t nice to push and shove when you are shopping for food or for anything else (even if the other people on line are the same gender as you)!
TO coachred613
Sorry to tell u you sound like a real nut case,
Torah is Torah & Halacha is Halach, even though u feel pressured. of course its much easier to be a goy (i don’t really think so(.
May u all stop to compare to Taliban & iran! Want it or not OUR HOLY TORAH GAVE US SOME RESTRICTIONS.
I seem to recall something about “derech chiba” which does not include an unintended jostle. So what’s the issue here?
I live in a town that doesn’t have this problem because we don’t have any small pizza shops that get filled with starving customers, so when I went to a city where this problem DOES exist I was very shocked and disturbed. We don’t need a kol kereh to fix this issue, i think there are ways we can figure out ourselves how to order food without bumping into the opposite gender. The first step is to be aware that you are not the only one in line………. be patient and wait your turn on line. There should still be food left for you… Baruch hashem we are not in Auschwitz!!!!!!
I have a problem with bagel squisher use of words, and I quote
“Yes, I am talking about when we are in Frum stores (usually selling food), that have Frum, Yeshivishe customers.”
It sounds like to me that its only a problem for the yeshivishe people bumoing into each other, its also a problem even if they are not yeshivesh.
I think the issue is common courtesy.
This includes cutting ahead of the line at the register AND pushing.
dear writer , could you please tell us the name of the shop you were in? if its so crowded the food must be great!!!
That’s why I have no food in my fridge… for this exact reason…. There should be a mechitza in the supermarkets… one side for men and the other for nashim !
Here is an idea: Why don’t some of you move out of the tri-state area to the rest of the United States where 1. it is less crowded and 2. people are more polite.
If you are going to insist on living in crowded city conditions, you get crowded city conditions.
My children love visiting your communities (although mostly because you have more kosher junk food available), but they can’t wait to get to the “real world” where people treat each other more politely and give each other more personal space.
Stop complaining if you are only willing to live in such space-constrained areas.
here is what my issue is…i work on one of the busiest avenues in flatbush (without spelling it out u can figure it out) there are schools and yeshivas and tons of stores all over….. there are many times i have gone into food stores on my lunch break have waited inline for my turn ..waiting for my food and as im watching i noticed something amazing…….the way some people talk to the help behind the counter is such a chillul hashem its unbeleivable, there are times i have been standing there and got so embarassed, i wanted to turn to this frum person and say were u ever taught please and thank you? 1 incident in particular i happened to have been in a bagel store where a frum man came in charged up to the counter and said i placed an ordere i want my food now who is dealing with it, the man behind the counter rolled his eyes and gave the guy a look……where was his menschlichkeit? where was his opportunity to show thiss goy behind the counter that jews are fine people and we know how to respect others and say please thank you etc yes i know not everyone is like this but still…… before anyone jumps on me this was not the first time i witnessed such rude behvior, by men and woman….
this is slightly off topic, but its regarding tzniyus:
One shabbos afternoon i was walking with a couple of friends down a busy street. Walking towards me was a girl who attended a local Bais Yakkov high school. Im sure shes a great girl but something didn’t sit with me, HER SKIRT! Its not that it was 1inch below her knees, no, it was atleast one inch above her knees!! and thats standing!
now if it was only women in the world, than maybe i can look at her with a little less pity.but no, the street was filled with bochurim and men!
tzniyus is not a joke! it’s serious! and yes the yezter hara is really strong and will try to get us wherever we’re weak, that’s why we have to fight back that much stronger!
look around the world how many tzaros there are; sickness, shidduch ‘crisis’, enemy threats… the list is endless!
but we have a way to help stop it! we have to work on our tzniyus, but not byichidus rather brabim, each girl/woman should take a skirt that just doesn’t pas for a bas yisrael to wear and give as a karbon to Hashem! can you imagine how happy Hashem will be when each skirt is thrown away all for leshaim shomayim!!!
im not asking of you to please take this apon yourselves-im practically begging! it doesn’t look pretty, no, it looks so disgusting-thats how you should look at it-the skirt thats not covering your knees at all times is a the most ugliest skirt!
and to the fathers and husbands, please don’t think you have no part in tzniyus, you do,and we need your help; please tell and make sure your wives/daughters are wearing skirts bederech halacha.
thank you,and with the zechus of overcoming this nesayon, may we all see the bais hamikdash built in our days
Here we have it folks, the next thing to be banned…mixed stores. I am sure that we will be seeing a Kol Koreh on this very soon. People realy need to find better things to do with their time than worry about these things.
If your’e so concerned about these types of issurim, what are you doing on the internet? How’s that, Bubble Boy.
I really think that this problem starts at the Chinuch level.
We should teach our children in Yeshivas or Bais Yaakovs to be careful about how to behave in stores in general and about “negiya” specifically. I go to stores and sometimes a teenage Bais Yaakov girl would actually push between the men. I wish I had more time to elaborate I must go.
#17-
I think he meant a kal ve’choimer to “yeshivishe” people who are supposedly very makpid on all sorts of chumros
This is my first time commenting on this website, but I just couldn’t stand these mishagasin anymore. People, Whatever happened to saychel! Must everything be legislated, even the yeitzer hora? If the store is too crowded, if you don’t want to go to a concert, if you don’t think the internet is a good idea, if you don’t want a t.v. in your house,etc. don’t have or do those things!! Can’t we make any saicheldik decisions on our own anymore?? Must we be spoonfed everything? If someone handed me a card telling me to be more tznius I would probably slap them. How’s that for negiya. What chutzpah. Just be a mentsh. Separate store hours? What is going on with you people? Don’t push, don’t shove, just be normal. If someone is rude to you, tell them. B”H I generally have low blood pressure, because reading these petty things makes my blood pressure rise!!
Go to Gateshaed in england .there they have times for men and ladies and the rabbi inforce it
This is the best letter written to YW yet! I have been screaming about this crisis for years! Why can’t I order & pay for my bagels without getting knocked around by some overzealous ladies with their lattes, etc.? Also, why is it more in bagel stores & pizza shops than groceries???
Hopfully, this crisis will soon be resolved because it is really serious!!!
I just BUMPED into LIPA in BAGEL NOSH, we decided this should be the next Kol Koreh intuitive – separate bagel stores!
Pleassshhe miss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get your halacha straight,before you go off on your religious crusade.In addition,get out of the big city,if you can’t live crowded!!!!!!!!!!
Firstly, you say that there is no negia issue as the bumping into each other was totally unintended. That may be the case for the woman who got pushed to the side but the man who pushing her away in order to cut the line definitly intended to push his way into line, which means that the intention was there. Also, sometimes there guys are so aggressive that people get hurt in the shuffle. It is time for people to realize all the problems that happen when they do something that seems as inncent as cuttingin line. Remember, you are also giving Bnei Torah a bad name when you do this as people say ‘look what Bnei Torah do”
lgbg. execellent article on modesty enough with the bagelnosh stories let’s roll out lipa hold on did someone say move out of town were we have bigger parking lots or stores yikes I just moved to lkwd very disappointed oy omg this guy just side swiped my car. alright I thought it was a car its a carriage or wagon
To guard against such chance enocunters, I only enter stores that don’t look crowded. The train is another issue. I only travel none rush hours.
I totally agree. It’s not assur to be shoved!
We need our community to be better educated in halacha so they don’t start more crazy crusades against things that are halachically kosher.
Chevra,
Why is this even an issue? Pushing? Shoving? Bagel stores? Pizza shops? Grocery stores?
After paying what I can of the ever-increasing yeshiva tuition, marrying-off a couple of kids (B”H), having the price of mitzvah items (such as shmura matzoh) and home-heating energy increase astronomically (I consider none of the above to be luxury items), having savings decimated due to the economic downturn, etc., who has any money left over for food (be it from a bagel store, pizza shop, or grocery store)? Where are all of these Yeshivishe people who have money for food coming from?
—
As for the comment of “Proud Jew” (#14), “Sorry to tell u you sound like a real nut case… Want it or not OUR HOLY TORAH GAVE US SOME RESTRICTIONS,” I humbly suggest that calling another Jew “a real nut case” and screaming by using all caps in a semi-public forum – where some may actually know the person’s true identity – may be more frowned upon by the Torah than accidentally bumping into another person while on a shopping excursion; especially if one harbors ill will towards the other just for having a different opinion of the situation.
—
Finally, I wholeheartedly agree with those out-of-towners who correctly (in my estimation) discern that many frummies in the NYC area are not really part of the “real world,” but, rather, live in a world unto itself replete with its own sets of rules, values, and priorities. Fortunately, many of them – but not all – do tend to coincide with what Torah hashkofo prescribes.
-MK
I refuse to believe that a frum person, man or woman, can think that it’s OK or “not assur” to bump and squish people from the opposite gender in a public place. Men and women should be shopping in different stores. The comment that they should have separate lines is a compromise in tzniyus. Do you have separate lines at a chasane? In shul chas v’shalom? Tzniyus is more important than convenience. Lack of tzniyus is the number one problem today.
@#29 If someone handed me a card telling me to be more tznius I would probably slap them. How’s that for negiya.
Now that is one of the most Torahdik reactions possible in your case. In fact, Chazal even have a special term for it. It’s called… oh yeah, Aveirah Gorreres Aveirah.