Three Hesder Yeshiva students, currently training in the IDF have reportedly been incarcerated, Ynet reports. They soldiers apparently arrived at a training session only to find out that the class was to be delivered by female soldiers.
The three Hesder Yeshiva students adamantly refused to enter the classroom. They were warned by the course’s commander not to leave the course, explaining that the conditions in class fell in line with the “proper integration” rules agreed upon by rabbis and the army.
However, the soldiers insisted not to attend the course, and were consequently put on trial and sentenced to 21 days in military prison.
Officials at the Hesder Yeshiva backed up their decision, but IDF officers claimed that the troops had “crossed the line.”
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56 Responses
good for them!!!!!
Rediculous! Next thing you know, if they were to be trained by females it would lead to mixed dancing.
It has been a well-known “secret” for many years that the IDF is rife with immorality, from the top to the bottom. The idea that you can have a mixed-gender army without rampant immorality would be funny, if it were not so tragic.
That is one of the reasons that the Chazon Ish, ZT”L, made his famous decree that Jewish girls are forbidden to have any connection at all with the IDF or National Service, even on pain of death–“YeHeRag VeAl YaaVor!”
Until now, the Mizrachi Dati-LeUmi groups ignored the Chazon Ish’s ban, because of their super-Zionist orientation. Now, they are begining to realize that they were nothing more than “useful idiots” in the hands of the secular leaders.
The secularists have tired of the game, and now, the brass nuckles are coming out and the secularists are showing their true colors. They will no longer tolerate special treatment for the religious.
The Mizrachi group must make a fateful choice: join the Hareidi community or go secular, all the way.
Bravo to these courageous boys. They made the right choice!
And for all those who wana give some hakaros hatov to the zionists! this is complete proof how wrong you were and still are! i give my utmost credit to them!
Here is the whole story:
In the past, males and females were, for the most part, separated in the army. About ten years ago, however, the Supreme Court ruled that girls must be integrated into various units – and since then this has been done in almost all of the army’s units, leading to a clearly secular environment throughout the army.
Guidelines were made for religious soldiers, called the “Suitable Integration” guidelines, which were supposed to be for our benefit, but in actuality create a sort of religious ghetto for the soldiers. Now, however, we see that even this ghetto is not being preserved.”
The soldiers in question were sent to a three-week course involving balloon-based observation. Though the course is taught solely by females, and involves the active participation of female soldiers, the yeshiva student soldiers were not asked in advance whether they agreed to participate. Even when they ultimately found out the nature of the course and registered their complaints, they were told that they must either take part or face jail time. They chose, by default, the latter.
Raphael Cohen , Montreal, Canada (02.06.08)
YW- I’m curious as to your source for this. So much for all the whiners who claim that Hesder yeshivos and the Nachal Chareidi unit leave no excuse for not doing “tzava”.
#3
Right on!!!
ashrechem shenitfastem al divrei torah
Can someone explain what’s the problem here? It doesn’t sound like there would be an issue of negiah or even yichud. I don’t want to pass judgment too soon.
what a kiddush hashem these boys have made. everyone knows the best soldiers are the hesder boys. if the army wants them to feel welcomed, then let the army come towards them.
May others be inspired and encouraged, and follow their example.
B”H
The A7 story explains a lot more:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125168
So what is the difference here then there is with having a female teacher in Turo College on only boys night?
Exactly what were the women teaching? Did it involve physical contact with the instructor? Did it involce discussions about subjects more appropriately disucssed among men? Are these soldiers taking the position that they are unwilling to be taught anything by women?
Ya gotta know the whole story, not just the parts you wanan know.
and then, theres way to deal with it to.
I just read the Arutz 7 article. It only presents one side, that of the soldiers. But the article makes clear the level of mutual contempt that adibes between religious and secular Israelis. Religious Israelis don’t consider the chilonim to be really Jewish and the Chilonom don’t consider the religious to be really Israeli. There is more than enough blame for this travesty to go around to both sides of the divide.
What’s the big kidush Hashem here? What’s wrong with a woman instructor? Do all of you at work never deal with women? If any of you went to college (chas v’shalom) are you not allowed to have a female professor? Nareshkite!
To theyenta–no. 13
The Chazon Ish, ZT”L, made a clear distinction between a voluntary environment–where you can leave anytime things begin to deteriorate in inappropriateness–and a coerced environment, where you get jailed if you leave.
In the IDF class, these frum boys would have been compelled to sit in a coerced mixed-gender class, taught by women.
If the secular teachers had decided to taunt the boys, they would have had to endure the “treatment,” on pain of punishment in jail.
They did the intelligent thing. They left and took the jail time, without enduring the “treatment.”
Those of you who have judged them w/o knowing all the facts, good for you. I particularly love the comment from moshiachnow who indicates he doesn’t “want to pass judgment too soon”. Seriously people, what gives you the right to judge anyone at all?
Their Rosh Yeshivah has the facts and concluded they did right. That should be the final word and no need for any busy-bodies from Boro Park to pipe up with their opinions.
As for the larger issue of female instructors. I served in a combat unit through Hesder 1990- 1995. Admittedly things could and probably have changed since then. However, back then it was standard for female soldiers to serve in instructor roles. Since they wanted to feel part of the combat units (i.e. feel they were a step above the other desk-jockey soldiers) and since they could not actually serve on the front lines, the army encouraged them to teach the other soldiers. I had at least half a dozen female instructors over the years. It was never one-on-one and never with actual physical contact between us and them. Subjects always focused on a professional level (history of battles, rifle range, ABC warfare, radio use, etc). They served well and on a personal level I never saw anything wrong with having them teach us. One can argue against having a personal instructor in a closed room. But standing before 20 yeshiva bochurs as she reviews the proper method of donning a protective suit in the event of a chemical attack is, IMHO, not exactly a ‘distraction’. Believe me, we were more concerned with learning to fire a gun while encumbered with those masks, the gender of the instructor was just incidental.
So what is the difference here then there is with having a female teacher in Turo College on only boys night?
I agree 100% no difference. Lets got our priorities in life straight.
My experience is the same as IMHO’s (comment # 19) and I agree with him 100%.
Come on. It is ridiculous to compare having a female instructor in the army and a female professor teaching an all-male course in Touro College.
In a college setting, the professor speaks and teaches academic subjects in a very public setting.
In an army setting, the instructor speaks with emotion, may need her students to watch her body movements, and MAY need physical contact with her
students. In addition, one-on-one instruction, in close quarters, with all of the above, is also a possibility.
Still don’t see a difference between the two?
Maybe you should never eat a shabbos meal by a friend because his mother is there serving the food and sitting at the table with you (not to mention sisters, which may be a different issue).
#19
As you have indicated, the reason the females want to become instructors is to make themselves more physically involved in the service, to be a step above their desk-jockey soldiers. Basically, that means they want to be more “with the boys” and intermingled. That is the beginning of the hashchasa to evolve. There must be a geder, and that’s what these boys are stating.
Dear IMHO–no 19:
I guess you would have no objection to having women teachers in Yeshiva high schools–maybe even giving a Gemara Shiur!
#24, what’s the problem with it?
I am not giving my opinion as far as serving in the IDF.
If these guys are serving there, it is because their Rabbanim have instructed them to do so. Now, they should be following whatever P’sak they are given to this shaiylah.
If their Rabbanim told them that this is ossur, then they are doing the correct thing.
TO CANTORESQ NO. 25:
NOTHING WRONG AT ALL, IF YOU ARE REFORM OR CONSERVATIVE JEW OR A GENTILE!
Frum kids should not be in the army to begin with.
To those that will take issue with my comment, it is my personal opinion. Take it or leave it.
The difference between this and female instructors in boys’ Touro? There is no difference – they’re both equally disgusting. I didn’t know about that & I’m shocked. The thought of my daughter standing up in front of a room full of men and having them all facing her is repulsive.
deepthinker:
Do you honestly believe that there isn’t a woman in the world who has anything of value to teach men?
I’m not sure that I fully understand this discussion; is there any negiah or yichud involved? Otherwise, what’s the big deal?
Rav Mechel: Why not?
crgo: What exactly repulses you about the scenario that you portrayed? Unless you think your daughter is not knowledgeable enough to teach a “room full of men,” I don’t see what your disgust is based upon?
There is such a startling disconnect between the mission of this blog- to be a kosher source of news for the Yeshiva World, and the viewpoints of the commenters themselves.
So interesting, that it needs to be explained on “Yeshiva World” just why it would be revolting for me or another woman to be standing in front of a room full of males, expounding on military or academic subject matter.
Most amusing was the transparent attempt to cast this breach of a woman’s dignity and modesty (I laugh as I anticipate the expected comments- just HOW is teaching a breach of dignity and modesty? How funny and sad at the same time) as an affront to her intellectual capacity to teach- “is your daughter not knowledgeable enough to teach men?”.
Are there really so few Yeshivah people who read this blog, that the vast majority on this thread has difficulty appreciating the Psak that was apparently given to these Hesder soldiers? Or does the intended audience of this blog refrain from frequent posting, due to the inanity so often found therein? A number of aquaintances have said as much, but the sample size is too small to have significance.
I should take this opportunity to thank Yeshiva World News, for in fact fulfilling its mission of delivering clean, kosher news in an appropriate format. Bloggers or not, YWN serves an excellent purpose.
#29
You are correct. Frum children should be in the yeshiva from dawn to dusk . They have heilege blood. Chlonim were created to protect and die if necessary so that the frum can sit safely in the beit medrash. I guess it was ok for myself and my children to have served since we only pretend to be frum and do not spend all of our time learning.
YW gets at least 300,000 vists a month from over 25,000 different people. Like many News sites (lehavdil) Commenters are a very small but loyal percentage.
to all you ignramuses out there comparing to turo..and whats the heter of turo!!..what about “histaklous b’noshim” also about turo one has choice not to go to turo on the other hand in army one does not want (as if there is choice in this issur) to be oiver on “histcklous” is still forced to go. so what are you comparing to turo
from tone of language of cantoresq, eg. #14 ,#25, we feel he is not ben torah not even observant .your hashkofes are anti..so what are you doing on this shomer torah website?
Sarah i truely feel soory for you for apparently having fully internalized nowadays “modern” chumrahs, who would like to relegate women to live in ghettos of their if that were possible.
Women in your circles are lucky for the equally “modern” invention to have women breadwinners for kollel husbands, that way you retain the right to a certain education en social contact in the work place…
Your equally lucky not to live in the beautiful world israeli chareidim are busy creating for themselves, with seperate working places, buses, sidewalks etc!
Here we go again. Aleph Bais
Woman are not supposed to serve in the army, that is not a personal choice, it is a posuk in the torah, losihiye kli gever al ha’eesha. For the Mizrachiztoniyos that think they are doing a wonderful thing by transgressing a prohibition that the Chazon ish and others said was Yeharog v’al ya’over, I’m sorry you do not value what the Torah says. For others, once someone else transgresses, giving them kavod is just lifnai evar. You must tell them they are transgressing a serious issur. By doing so you are fulfilling the mitzvah of hochai’ach tochiach es amisecha, even if they do not listen. We only say Mutav she’yiehyeh shogagim vlo yihiyeh mazidim, by a davar she’aino mifurash batorah. Which is not the case here where there is a posuk. As far as even teaching a torah class, Reb Moishe Z”L writes that if a woman is giving a lecture to men, she must do so while being seated. In that case I’m sure Reb Moshe was talking about a woman who was dressed according to the norms of tznius. in this case the instructor can wear a tight T shirt, a short skirt, no stockings, perfume, etc. That, aside from the issur of histaclus banashim in general, that modern orthodox and a good part of the yeshiva velt have flushed down the toilet. I salute these boys for standing up to their convictions to what TORAH REQUIRES of them instead of relying on heterim that no G-d fearing Rav would let his own children rely upon. Kol Hakavod Chazak vamatz!
#38, don’t be so quick to assume anything about anyone here. For all you know, I sit next to you in schul, or our children are in the same class in school.
Judy,
May you continue to grow in understanding the nobility of the Jewish woman, and soon realize the true dignity and beauty of a daughter of Hashem.
Your words are understandable, as they are but one more example of the confusion of today’s woman. I hope that one day, you will overcome the urge to react with the “modern chumrah” response, and truly appreciate the regal internality that is your birthright.
All the best.
to #39 judy..you also sound like those who think halocho is an opinion..there’s no such thing as “modern” chumros. “kol kevidoh bas melech penima” is not a “modern chumra” even though it doesn’t mean literally to hide in home all times see “soteh” 22a, but one should sit all day and and stare at opposite …from your tone of writing you dont even know the issur of “histacklus b’noshim”(not a modern” chumreh)
Now if don’t belive that the “shulchun urech” is part of our torah (not “modern”chumres)and you are guided by what is morally rihgt or wrong from the immorality on the street or the morally right magazines you read which is put out by the shmutz,low lifes from press that everything goes you dont belong on the “TORAH” world site, theres plenty conservative, reform sites and dont use those maningles “trully feel sorry for you” “so sad” cliches’. When you mention “your circles” ,what “circles” do YOU belong? we dont have to guess…your “circles” are not the ones guided by OUR shulchun urach…but what the latest immoral, shmuts prpogated in, lets say, good housekeeping, readers digest, or worse.
to #20 stam yid..and what are those priorities in life that we have to get straight…what are you guided by to consider “this is the right priorities” we are guided with torah which includes “5 books of moses” and shulchen urech one and inseperable (torah s’beksav and bal peh) and according to those “prioities” these hesder men came to thier “PROPER priorities”. Now what laws are your guide for proper priorites,
New York Times, Post (UGH” immoral shmuts etc.) then you dont belong on a ben torah site and preach YOUR priorities elsewhere…
to #42 sarah…when one is shomrei torah u’mitavos and is guided by shulchen urech, not by the shmutz from the street,or shmutz, immoral magazines or newspapers, they are not “CONFUSED” as what is right al pitorah
attn #2 coachred613 ….what we wrote at #43 and #44 goes to you to. Halacha is not what everyones opinion that is shaped accordiing how much shmutz and immorality one absorbed from the immoral street, !!!!
to #41 cantoresq…whether you sit next to me or my children go with your children to school does not change an iota of what we wrote in #38..also from tone of your writing and “YOUR” hashkofes.. you and me live on 2 different spiritual planets and you would not be sending your children to such yeshivas i sent to to save your life, and also not daven in such “gehtto” jew shuls i daven in
# 47 how do you know? Can you make your statements with absolute certainty? Aside from that, what I find amazing is the seeming ease with which certain people who post here declare others to be non-observant- krum- kofrim etc. It’s much easier to call someone a koifer and ignore what s/he says than to engage in real conversation. After all real conversation may actually lead to someone learning from their “koifer” interloquetor. That is way too scary a proposition.
to #47 cantoresq…how do we know.. ,with your comments one can see your haskofes..also nobody mentioned the word “koifer”,”krum”… at your #14 and #25 post you dont see anything wrong with “eisho” teaching men…so you dont know of the issur of “histaklus b’noshim” and “herhurim” (probably dont know the term) which doesnt fit description of shomer torah (and yes ,this halucha is not chassidus. At post #16…where did you take this statement “religious dont consider chiloni jewish”, if mother is jewish there is no such thing child not jewish.
Pashuteh Yid – a breath of fresh air
P.S.to #49 cantoresg… we didn’t ignore what you said, we explicitly pointed out that what you “don’t see what is wrong with..” (#14 & #25) is against OUR “shulchen urech”. so what “engage in real conversation” are you refering to, maybe we should go out in restaurant, will that be more “real conversation”? another clue of what you stand for in post #49 you say “S/HE” this thing of always l’man hashem to mention “she/he” is mekor from femminist movement which is, yes, anti torah hashkofa the yesod of “kol k’vidah bas malech pnima” etc.,etc our holy gedoloim could distern from reading a sefer what level yias shomaim the mechaber 9author” was same with writing, we pointed out a few littele bittele snippets that gives you away….hope this “real conversation” will put things to rest…
#50, I really have little interest in establishing my learning credentials. But suffice it to say that my command of Hebrew and Aramaic far outpaces your command of English. Also, please be advised that Hebrew term for fantasies or licentious thoughts is more accurately transliterated as “hirhurim” A chirik is best demonstrated with a long i. Your reference to the segol seemed to imply the verb lehair, to display. Thus far no one described the instructors in this case as displaying anything. Please don’t create issues where none exist.
matzahlocaol101 :
I see a couple flaws in your argument here. First, do you fail to see the difference between a woman serving in combat and teaching a class? Let’s assume they asked her to sit ahead of time. Shaila finished as far as R’ Moshe zt”l is concerned. If the halacha is women cannot serve in the army in any fashion whatsoever, even as instructors, then I concede. But I doubt that is the case.
As far as tznius goes, do you also never leave your house so as to avoid c”v seeing a women in pants? Not all of us have the luxury to sit in kollel all day. I am not knocking those that do; kol hakavod as long as they are not a burden on the community. But the reality is the world does not for the most part dress modestly. Life must go on and it’s no aveirah to be exposed to that if you can’t avoid it. Odds are even if a male would teach this course, on these soldiers’ bus ride back they would be exposed to some frei Israelis and see things much worse than a soldier in a uniform.
Finally, and please correct me if I’m wrong here, but doesn’t histaclus bnashim depend on the boys themselves? Are you suggesting they shouldn’t be exposed to girls b’chlal?
If I am not mistaken, “histaklus” means gazing. The fact that a woman is teaching a class of men does not necessarily mean that anyone is being mistakayl. No?
“Shenishmor Chukecha Ba’Olam Hazeh…”
BOTTOM LINE: FEMALES SHOULD NOT BE IN THE MILITARY.
I need to correct myself. The segol used by #50 might imply the very “lheiraot” and not lehair. Sorry for the confusion.
Such a breath of fresh air from #48 Poshete yid.
There is a real need for the frum and secular to find a way of communicating and understanding one another. Don’t you realize the way the frum community behave, refusing to help serve in the army, letting the frei go and risk their lives to defend us, and then saying everything about the state is trayf, is a terrible chilul Hasem and is merachek millions of yidden to Yidishkeit? The two sides have become polarized each side making the other MORE extreme.
People say if it wasn’t for the Arab threat to Israel, then the society itself would have destroyed each other by now. Why is it that the only thing that unites all Jews is the common threat from enemies? Why can’t the Yeshivah world and frum world show respect to other yidden even though they aren’t frum yet? This tit for tat; “you don’t show respect for my religion so I won’t show respect for your medinah” has to stop somewhere.
I’m not saying we have to lower our standards but still we still have a mitzvah of Ahavas Yisroel. And it applies to ALL yiden. Even to secular yiden. Half of them are secular to spite the frum who show hatred to any good the “State” has done. (I’m not saying everything the secular yiden have done is kosher. But I do think a lot of the pritzus is a direct REACTION to the extremism of the frum. BOTH sides are causing the other side to become more extream and spiteful. This vicious cycle has to stop. And sometimes you have to admit your own faults if you want the other side to admit to their’s.)
Wake up yidden. We are the Am Hanivchar. We have the responsibility to try to find a way to reach out to ALL yiden with Ahavas yisroel , Ahavas Chinam. Ahavas chinam will be the antidote to Sinas chinam.