Jewish Groups had protested the Catholic Church decision this past July that the parts of the Catholic service – which were found to be offensive – would remain part of their service. But today, Pope Benedict XVI said that the Catholic Church would remove anti-Semitic sections of the traditional Good Friday mass.
The removal of references to the “darkness” and “blindness” of the Jews for their refusal to recognize “J” as the messiah was a sign the pope was “deeply committed to advancing the relationship with the Jewish Community,” Rabbi David Rosen, chairman of the International Jewish Committee for Interreligious Consultations, told The Jerusalem Post.
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23 Responses
ah groise glik
Why do we care? Does changing the text of their prayers mean that they believe Jews are going to heaven? I doubt it.
This kind of lip service does no actual service to anybody.
We changed alot of gemoras and selichos with references to the church
First, I think I read that the official position of the Catholic Church is that Jews DO have their own path to heaven without needing to accept the Christian savior as their messiah, and I believe it was the previous Catholic Pope, John Paul II, who came up with this doctrine.
Second, we didn’t change our gemaras; the censors did, because, as far as I understand, they took offense over what, in essence, amounted to an intramural dispute that, according to commonly accepted historical dates, could not have been referring to their savior.
Third, if I am not mistaken, the Catholic Church did not even come into existence until after the gemara was already completed, so the gemara certainly could not have made any references about them.
#4, because the Church threatened us with death otherwise.
Baruch H-shem!!!! Now I can sleep at night knowing that my Christian neighbors will love me as a brother.
I think in return for this great sacrifice on behalf of the church, it would only be right that we change our doctrine (l’havdil elef alfay havdolos) & start believing that they also have a place in oilum haboh (CHAS V’SHOLOM) for their belief in the mamzer?????
In other words (for those who are a bit slow) GET A LIFE!! Have confidence in your yiddishkeit & who cares what they believe. Their belief can change as often as you get a new hat. Remember Halocho hu sh’aisav soneh l’yaacov no matter what the pope says.
There are Gemoras that possibly reference yushke pundrik. The “commonly accepted historical dates” from historians are at least as often incorrect as correct.
The church has a very bloody history with Jews.
to #5 HaKatan.. there was plenty reference in the gemmorrah to “oiso eish” that had to be taken out…
Who are we to tell the Catholic church how to pray? We surely didn’t like it when they did it to us. What will people here say if the Pope asks that the sentance “Sh’heim mishtachavim l’hevel varik umitpallellim el el velo yoshia” be removed from Aleinu (again) since it is offensive to Christians? Will we do it? Persoanlly I would never allow any outsider to tell me how to daven. I therefore would never presume to dictate to anyone how s/he should either.
To #5: Unfortunately (or, rather more accurately, “Who Cares”) the Catholic Church has it as a permanent tenet that if you were ever given a chance to become Catholic and you remain non-Catholic, then you don’t “go to heaven,” period; you end up being consigned by them to hell. It’s in their catechism. Any claim to the contrary is just eyewash. Of course, it’s another question whether anyone would ever want to be in a Catholic heaven or fret about a Catholic hell in the first place : – )
Joseph (#2)-
You took the words right out of my mouth!
Rabbi Pope Who?? It sounds like we care what he does, Chas M’lahaskir!!
Joseph ah groiseh glick? yes it not bad, anything we can do to minimize the hate we are suppose to try our histadudlus to do so, if they took out that text and it might drop a little the antisemitism maybe but we have to try
who cares what their prayers say? it doesn’t and shouldn’t concern us. let foxman make a press conference about it.
#4 According to Christian theology, Jews are technically able to merit salvation through the ‘Mosaic Law’ though they believe that practically this is beyond the capability of any human being to observe properly. And therefore, of course, they say one must embrace J which obviously solves all problems.
However some Christian groups argue that no salvation exists outside their religion whatsoever, and they quote a verse in a book called ‘Mark’ (16:16) “If you believeth and be baptized then you are saved, and if you believeth not then you are doomed!” Doesn’t it sound so convincing….
Yoma
‘its not bad’
Christians were responsible for a few thousand years of Jewish PERSECUTION AND antisemitism all in the name of J.
Should we really be impressed with their sudden attack of good conscience for acknowledging the fact that we didnt want to Embrace him??
again, why do we care? discussing it won’t change anything!
Sorry, #17, you’re about to “swallow their soap.” As far as the catholic church goes, it’s hardwired into their theology that non-catholics go to hell if they refuse to convert. They can soft-pedal it all they want in their sales pitch, just like the j-fer-j’s do on street corners; but, chas v’shalom, it would be a big mistake to think this is a fringe belief of theirs. It’s permanently ensconced in their doctrine, as we have so painfully discovered through both distant and recent history. They even try to silence any of their theologians who claim otherwise (see several cases in recent months); and, when convenient, they exercise it even against their protestant “brethren.”
By the way #7, we believe that Goyim do have a place in Olam Haba if they do the right thing and especially the Chasidei Umot HaOlam.
But let’s remember that the Church and the Pope were at least silent during the Holocaust and at most accomplises (either by supporting the atrocities or helping Nazis i”sv escape to south america and the us). They have a lot more to be ashamed about besides their prayers.
Read: Unholy Trinity: The Vatican, The Nazis, and The Swiss Banks
g’d bless you all my holy brothers-)
Sorry #20 but it is an argument. Yes, there are those who believe that there is no alternative period. However, many maintain that on a theoretical level if one could keep the 5 books and the prophets perfectly then one does indeed merit salvation. And that’s how they explain how those who existed before his time were able to be called righteous, even though they didn’t believe in what didn’t yet exist. They argue that those were stronger generations than ours. Obviously the pesukim in Nitzovim are a DIRECT contradiction to this (Ki Hamitzvoh etc) so they are conveniently reprinted in Paul, distorted and contorted, specially modified for a brand new meaning. Catholics are generally more lenient on there matters, whereas it is the evangelists that are the ones yelling about the eternal lake of fire bla bla bla…
To #20; go read up on it. For them, it’s doctrine: “Refuse conversion? Then burn!” Auto da fe, etc. etc. Better yet, read the transcript of the Ramban’s victory-in-debate regarding the stark difference between Catholicism and Judaism on this issue.
In further response to the errors-in-fact made by #20 & 24 above: for those wondering whether xianity does or does not “allow” Jews in “heaven,” please go to the following online class on the subject:
– go to the aish.com site
– click on the “pathways” button along the left side of the screen
– within Pathways, go to the class entitled “Deed and Creed”
– within Deed and Creed go to class number 4, “Prayer and Repentance: The Mechanics of Change
– within class 4, fast-forward to roughly minute 10 out of the total 22 minute class
– Rabbi Benjamin Blech there lays out in contrast the approaches of xianity and Judaism regarding the ultimate spiritual fate of those not of their religion.
Suffice it to say, Judaism recognizes that the righteous of all nations have a place in olam ha ba, in stark contrast to xianity (including Catholicism), which consigns unwilling non-converts to hell. And not just our purifyiong gehinnom but, rather, their vision of a never-ending torture chamber.
A final note on the pope’s “changing” their prayers: he is backing off from an earlier change of a few months ago which had RE-introduced scurrilous text into their prayers. All he did in this latest action was to return to “zero point.” Some “improvement”!