Question I don’t know the answer to :) 🤔

Hashem is doing this because he loves you and wants only food for you even though it may seem not good.

Good*

I think the Chofetz Chaim gives a moshol, which I don’t have time to write out now, but the short answer is: nahama d’kisufa.

We are not the ones to judge. Iyov said basically the same thing ארץ נתנה ביד… HaShem did not hold him accountable, (only בלא דעת). If one truly wants to be mekarev such a person, it must be with much Secel and patience. But for a Jewish Neshamah, there is ALWAYS hope. It can always me rekindled, anytime, sometimes without warning, at a seemingly insignificant occurrence, thought, circumstance.

Maybe you don’t really need to understand Hashem? As someone once said “I’m not interested in a G-d I can understand…”

People suffer to cleanse them of their sins. They have sinned because
they broke Hashem’s laws which Hashem put out in the beginning.

Children suffer, too. (So you’ll answer that they
must be a gilgul, but how do you know that?)
And we certainly see people who appear to us to have sinned
more seemingly suffering less than people who appear to have
sinned less do. It’s a hard answer for some people to accept.

Rand0m3x 🧠🕴️🎲 Yes gilgul. Bamidbar 14:18 ” but visiting the iniquity of fathers upon children, upon the third and fourth generations “.
Also, everything is hidden, so Hashem alone judges the measure of sin and the measure of punishment, whether in this life or the next life.

Chabadshlucha,

But he knows that Hashem set up Adam and Chava for chet etz hadaas so really He wanted the system to work this way.

Woah wait, stop the wagon. I cannot for one second believe that Hashem commanded Adam and Chava to not eat from the etz pri hadaas while secretly wanting them to, so that their sin somehow caused the world to function in the way He intended to. That is completely contrary to the plain meaning of the pesukim, and it implies, CV”S, that Hashem is deceptive. Yet, as we say every day at the end of Shema: Hashem Elokeichem Emes. It is clear that Hashem did not want Adam and Chava to eat from the tree, and that their doing so resulted in extremely negative consequences for the world, and required adjustments to Hashem’s plans for humanity, most notably the exile from Gan Eden.

Convenient answers to your question are that man, not G-d, causes suffering due to sinning. And that suffering is a kapara. And that suffering yields opportunities for a man to elevate himself, such as the testing of the Avos. These answers are all true, but probably feel distant and cold to someone who, G-d forbid, has a child who is suffering. Nobody knows the answer to your question, because we cannot understand even the tiniest fraction of Hashem’s perspective. All I know is we do not see the whole picture, and Hashem loves us more than we can know. And it’s ok to cry.

Quoting the Chafetz Chayim: To those who believe there are no questions; to those who don’t there are no answers.

Chabadshlucha,

There really was a plan a. However what I said still stands.

You said that the etz pri hadaas was essentially a set-up. By this do you mean that, despite the fact that Hashem told Adam to not eat from the tree, He meant for them to? Sorry, I have a hard time believing that our Creator, who commanded us not to put a stumbling block before the blind, and who said through His prophet, “choose life!” would desire a sin and the death it brought.

Sounds like you never heard of the concept before.

I have, but never from an Orthodox Jew.

So I guess it could be another discussion if you want. I may need hypo on up the sources though, so is this only foreign to avrammd? Abs others can fill in?

Go right ahead.

Bamidbar 14:18 ”but visiting the iniquity of fathers upon children, upon the third and fourth generations.“

That posuk refers to when those descendants repeat their forebears’ sins.

Quoting the Chafetz Chayim: To those who believe there are no questions;
to those who don’t there are no answers.

Great. All you have to do now is make him a believer.

Shlucha,

“But he knows that Hashem set up Adam and Chava for chet etz hadaas so really He wanted the system to work this way. So he’s wondering why He chose such a system?”

What do you mean “knows”? Huh how would he know that as a “fact”? Why in the world would anyone teach him that as the simple way to understand that. It sure is not – even the Kabalistic world like the Ramchal in Derech Hashem does not say that. He explains that as something that was derived and happened as a result as a human flaw, and Hashem waited until Avrhom Avinu that the human race should correct it…

Even the Chabd Seforim do not say so, at least the Alte Rebbe in Torah Ohr, he says the following in Parshas Breshis he explains the issue how the “Birur Ras” would have been without the Chet:

“. וע”ד שהיה בזמן שבהמ”ק היה קיים שהרי ארז”ל לא גלו ישראל אלא כדי שיתוספו עליהם גרים דהיינו להעלות נצוצות ומה היה נעשה אם לא חטאו ולא היו גולים. אלא ע”כ צ”ל שאז היו נכללים הנצוצות ממילא כנר בפני האבוקה כמו נעמה העמונית וכן כל העמים באו לשמוע חכמת שלמה וכמ”ש במלכת שבא כו’. והיינו לפי שאז היה אבוקה גדולה עד”מ ע”כ ממילא מתכללים בה הנצוצות ואם היה נמשך בהמ”ק כן יותר היו כולם מתבררים עד”ז וכמ”ש לע”ל (צפניה ג’) אז אהפוך אל עמים שפה ברורה כו’. והלכו גוים לאורך כו’. וכך היה ענין האדם כשלא היה חוטא שהיה כולו קדוש כי גם גופו נלקח ממקום המזבח וממנו נעשו רמ”ח אבריו בלול בשמן כו’ והיה עומד בג”ע ושם היה מוסיף אורות וממילא היו הקליפות כלים ע”י שהיו הנצוצי קדושה כלים מהם אבל הדבר היה שלא ע”י מלחמה כו’. משא”כ אחר שחטא אזי צ”ל הבירורים ע”י עבודה ומלחמה שעת צלותא שעת קרבא כנ”ל וצריך לירד אל מקום הקליפות ושם יבררם וזהו את האדמה אשר לקח משם.

The above indicates that the world was original meant to be without the Chet of the Etz haDaas…

In any case, can you please post where the source is?

Here the Ramchal explains clearly that even after the Chet – Hashem gave the world a chance to once again go back and return to its former status:

אדם הראשון קודם חטאו היה במצב עליון מאד ממה שהוא האדם עתה וכבר ביארנו ענין זה (בחלק א’ פרק ג’). ומדריגת האנושיות לפי המצב ההוא היתה מדריגה נכבדת מאד ראויה למעלה רמה נצחיית כמו”ש. ואלו לא היה חוטא היה משתלם ומתעלה עוד עילוי על עילוי. והנה באותו המצב הטוב היה לו להוליד תולדות מספר משוער מחכמתו ית’ על פי אמתת מה שראוי לשלימות הנהנים בטובו ית’ והיו כלם נהנים עמו בטוב ההוא. ואמנם התולדות האלה שהיה ראוי שיוליד נגזרו ושוערו מלפניו ית’ משוערים בהדרגות מיוחדות פירוש שיהיה בהם ראשיים ונטפלים שרשים וענפים נמשכים זה אחר זה בסדר מיוחד כאילנות וענפיהם ומספר האילנות ומספר הענפים הכל משוער בתכלית הדקדוק.

והנה בחטאו ירד מאד ממדריגתו ונכלל מן החשך והעכירות שיעור גדול וכמש”ל. וכלל המין האנושי ירד ממדריגתו ועמד במדרגה שפלה מאד בלתי ראויה למעלה הרמה הנצחיית שהתעתד לה בראשונה ולא נשאר מזומן ומוכן אלא למדריגה פחותה ממנה פחיתות רב ובבחינה זאת הוליד תולדות בעולם כלם במדרגה השפלה הזאת שזכרנו.

ואמנם אעפ”כ לא חדל מהמצא בכלל מדריגת המין האנושי מצד שרשו האמיתי בחינה עליונה מן הבחינה שהיה המין הזה אז בזמן קלקולו. ולא נדחה אדה”ר לגמרי שלא יוכל לשוב אל המדריגה העליונה אבל נמצא בפועל במדריגה השפלה ובבחינה כחניות אל המדריגה העליונה.

והנה נתן האדון ב”ה לפני התולדות ההם שנמצאו באותו הזמן את הבחירה שיתחזקו וישתדלו להתעלות מן המדריגה השפלה ולשים עצמם במדריגה העליונה. והניח להם זמן לדבר כמו ששיערה החכמה העליונה היותו נאות להשתדלות הזה ועל דרך מה שמנחת עתה לנו לשנהיה משיגים השלימות והמדריגה בקיבוץ בני העוה”ב כמש”ל.
– דרך ה’ חלק שני ד –
Later he explains how Hashem opted to correct the Chet through Avrohom and Klal Yisrael…

All this indicates not like the pshat above, the Chet was not intended/setup at all in any way.

Shlucha:

I highly suggest you (and him/her) should learn though the Sefer Derech Hashem it is basic Emunah that every Jew should know, and I’m sure it will answer many of his issues.
It is available with translations and on-line as well.
Just google “דרך ה”

Shlucha, I think you (or your friend) have it confused between what Adam thought Hashem wanted and what Hashem actually wanted.
Hashem created the world to do good, to give all HIs good to his creations. He did not create it so that people should suffer. But to avoid nehama d’chisufa, good that one does not earn and therefore becomes shameful, He set up the mitzvos so that we can earn that good. If one does not do the mitzvos, one does not get the good.
Adam had one mitzva. Adam believed that Hashem actually wanted him to eat from the Etz Hadaas, so that he could achieve an even higher spiritual level, by showing he was willing to sacrifice his life (this idea can be found in the Meshech Chochma) or by doing teshuva. Meaning, Adam thought it was a set-up, so to speak. But that is not what Hashem wanted, and terrible consequences and suffering resulted from his misunderstanding of Hashem’s mitzva. And to this very day we have to be metakein this chet. The suffering that we have today is a consequence of man’s actions, and rationalizations, and not Hashem’s purpose for the world.
Maybe in this lies the answer- as people, we try to rationalize and try to understand what Hashem wants and we fool ourselves to think we understand it all. We need to admit that we are mere mortals, fallible who cannot possibly comprehend Hashem’s plans, and we should not try to apply our logic to Hashem’s Logic, but live the maxim of “tamim tehiyu im Hashem Elokecha” without cheshbonos. Yes, it does boil down to emuna, I can’t see how you can separate it from the answer.

2 cents
or to rephrase what you said
If you only worship a G-d you can understand that really you are just worshiping yourself

The gemarrah paskens that bais shamai is correct “tov shelo nivra adam”

The Gemara actually says “noach lo l’adam shelo nivra”, and misquoting it is a grievous error.

It may indeed not be comfortable (noach) to have been created, and undergo the challenges we do, but ultimately, it is certainly for our best, and chas v’chalilah to say otherwise. Vayar Elokim ki tov.

Only problem is that Hashem isn’t limited – He can create a satisfying and just system of He wanted.

Not if “just” doesn’t fit with your definition of “satisfying”…

You know the famous question if Hashem can create a stone so heavy that He can’t lift it? How would you answer it?

I would answer that He can’t, but that isn’t a contradiction to the idea that He is “kol yochol” (unlimited), because the fact the He “can’t” do something which is inherently self contradictory isn’t a limitation in Him, it’s the nature of the paradox you are asking about.

Similarly, if your definition of “satisfying” doesn’t fit in with His (perfect) concept of justice, that’s not a limitation in Him ch”v, it’s a flaw in you.

Daas
I’m not sure how your definition of noach fits the Gemara. But even so it doesn’t change the philosophical question.
Let me ratchet it up a little. If we didn’t exist there would be no discomfort, no pain , no trials etc. both physical and spiritual . Our existence is supposedly because Hashem has a need to give. So Hashem s need to give creates the system . The system has pain and consequences involved. We didn’t ask to be created and part of the system. Had we not been created the loss of reward would not be felt. Therefore how can our creation be part of a selfless need to give? Since ultimately many will suffer?

DY raised an interesting point. How would this man in the OP have preferred the world to be created? What does it mean a world without suffering? Who defines what is suffering? Isn’t that subjective? To give a simple example- a woman suffers during childbirth (actually this is a consequence of Chava’s sin, world was not meant to be this way). Medical data says that labor and the accompanying hormones are good for the baby. So one person’s suffering is another’s good. Or perhaps he means a world where he does not suffer?

No death? well, the world was created without death, but Adam messed that one up.
No illness prior to death? Or old age? That too was part of the original nature of the world, but the avos requested that there should be warning before one dies, hence old age and illness.
No premature death/painful death/murder? Doesn’t that have to do with our actions?
Much of the suffering we go through is because of other people’s actions. That is a consequence of the fact that people have bechira, and Hashem allows them to act through that bechira. So perhaps the man’s problem is why there is bechira to do bad, but that is a different discussion.

His arguments are flawed. Suffering does not mean Hashem is cruel, Chas V’shalom, or that the world was supposed to have been created that way. so his conclusion that it must mean there is no G-d, chas v’shalom, is wrong. Methinks he left not for an intellectual reason, but out of emotional pain, and intellectual answers will not make him change his mind.

Men,
“Hashem has a need to give”
Chas Ml’hazkir – the very word and concept of “need” (as explained in all sforim) pertains only for mortals…

re: question Hashem can do anything, and could have created the world however He wanted. He chose to create it in a way that people suffer.

So in this mans mind, that leaves him two options : Hashem is bad or cruel cvs. Or there is no G-d. He goes with the latter.

My answer is really emuna based.

Anyone have a good intellectual answer, not emuna based?

Ask him- if everything was good then what would be the point in life?

are you saying people should suffer so I can feel good it’s not me!?

Where do you see that in GCL’s post?

Okay, but you made up a ridiculous explanation for what he/she meant.