Project Makom

See: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/should-the-frum-world-create-an-alternative-to-footsteps-for-otd-support#post-1330575

ftresi: Sadigur is correct:

Modern Orthodox Judaism

Gaon, your comment doesn’t conflict with Sadigur’s comment. It’s complimentary to his comment; and I agree with both your comment (which augments his) and his.

Maybe I read Sadigur’s post wrong but he seemed to be comparing MO to not religious at all. That smacks of sinas chinam. Maybe they don’t wear the yeshivish uniform but it doesn’t make them any less “frum” than the guy in the hat that’s wearing black and white.

If the only difference were the mode of dress, you might be correct. But it isn’t.

Read the thread I linked to above.

Did anyone say Modern Orthodox is as bad as being not frum?

I don’t see that…

A Woman,

“To all of you who’d rather see people become frei then be Modern Orthodox”

No one here suggested anything like it — Not even Joseph!

AWOB
“Obviously, Mod, we’re interpreting some of the comments different”
you are likely misinterpreting .

If any comment in particular bothers you. Quote it and Im sure someone would be happy to explain

for example:
ftresei
“but my read of SadiguraRebbe’s post was a comparison of MO to frei, AKA not frum”
You read wrong. In fact he says the exact opposite “… modox. which is not as bad as frei.”

AWOB
” If a Hassidish man or woman has suffered in their own community, shouldn’t they be welcome in another?”
Of course they should! Though that isnt a criticism of anyone here. That is a critiscm of (some) modern orthodox communities among whom some ex- Chassisim sometimes feel like outsiders given they usually lack higehr education, they may speak English with a an accent, they oftne never grew up immersed in general pop culture so they oftne feel left out. Obviously this isnt solved by abandoning Yidishkeit comepltly but iit isnt like joining a modox community automatically allows them to be complelty ingrained. You my or may not be familiar with the term “tuna beigel” but I assure you it isnt a term goyim are familiar with
Though this is a more minor reason why Footsteps is more successful than Project Makom. The main reasons are outlined on the other thread

ftresi: Nobody is questioning the fact that there are people who would be willing to be MO or not religious at all. The issue is, What is MO and is it the preferable mode of Judaism? The fact that it is, to some, the only version, or the maximum, that they are willing to accept does not address the issue at hand. If Modern Orthodoxy would be a Kiruv stage for people who aren’t yet ready for real Torah life, that would be fine. The problem is that they consider themselves not a b’dieved, but a l’chatchilah – a full fledged legitimate lifestyle. They often even make claims of being superior to Torah Judaism. That is the problem – compromises sometimes have to be made for individuals who are on their way up. But to take those compromises and make believe they are not compromises at all, thereby fooling people who WOULD be able to go higher that they need not, or worse, that they are already the highest, is a terrible crime. While it is true that on an individual, private, level, we are allowed to even proactively cause someone to sin if by doing so we will have prevented him form committing a greater sin, nevertheless, we may never, ever institutionalize those sins, making a b’dieved into a l’chatchilah, making the exception into the rule.

Someone just alerted me that this conversation is taking place. This is Allison Josephs. To clarify – our goal at Project Makom is not to make ex-hasidim “Modern Orthodox.” There is a RANGE of communities in between ultra-chasidishe and modern Orthodox. The truth is that really what we are helping people do is go from *unhealthy* Judaism to a healthier one. For a bunch, they stay within the Charedi world. They are not interested in Modern Orthodoxy. We are presenting healthy, halachic drachim and rabbanim and friends and communities and letting people choose what feels right to them. I went to a seminary which presented us a range of drachim and encouraged us baalei teshuva to find the one that resonated with our neshama. We are operating with a similar model here. Not for people who are happy and doing well. We are catching people as they fall out or after they feel out.

That would buy them maybe a generation or two before the kids are back to being frei, so yes, it’s better than being frei.

I’d assume footsteps is “more successful” than Project Makom (who measures success in this area and how?) Is because it’s been around longer and simply has more press coverage…

Footsteps is a boondoggle that has been a huge failure in its goals, in terms of the small numbers of people they’ve actually converted to freikeit/secularism from frumkeit/religion.

The Chasidish and Yeshivish attrition rate is very small, compared to other Jewish groups. (I saw this in some study a few years back.)

ZD: “The reality is Chassidism is not for everyone, even if you were born into it. It would be alot better if people were given better choices before the situation is almost hopeless before offering Project Makom because at that point, footsteps is offering a better solution”

1. I don’t think we’re only talking about Chassidim. I think we’re talking about anyone Chareidi.

2. You’re right in theory, except for a few things:

a) The parents’ obligation is to try to bring up their kids the best way possible. And if they consider a certain derech to be emes AND most people who bring up their kids this way are successful, then their obligation is to first try to bring up their kids this way.

b) The vast majority of the time it does work. In the minority of cases in which it doesn’t work, there is usually something else going on here. The normal thing is for kids to want to be like their parents.

LU

“Ftresi is correct. The statement: “It helps them become modox. which is not as bad as frei” does imply that it’s bad to be modox although not as bad as frei.”

no he isnt correct.
This was explained above.
“ITs saying that for a chassid to abandon his roots, being modox is not as bad as becoming frei.”

Everyone’s obligated to continue following the minhagim and mesorah from their father.

ZDad: I think it’s more like 1 or 2 percent. And the Modern Orthodox attrition rate is a LOT higher.

Tuna bagels or whatever you call them, as bad an influence as they can sometimes be, have a major advantage that their kids will continue in Frum mosdos and hopefully remain Frum. And very often when these people themselves reach middle age or so, they turn back to practicing Yiddishkeit.

Whereas when someone literally leaves, it’s much harder to come back and they’ve most likely messed up their families.

While it’s not easy being a kid in the former family, and kids can definitely sniff the truth and smell hypocrisy, if they have a solid Torah education with the right hashkafah kids can decide they want to be frummer than the parent. If it’s both parents that disregard some of the Torah, of course the child will usually end up a lot “worse for the wear”.

The bottom line is usually how bad of “tuna bagel” one is, is it insidious in lack of belief, or more of “I can’t be bothered with all this minutiae” so I’ll cut some corners. And where one chooses to live and what kind of Yidden they surround themselves with greatly effects their chances of Teshuva, as well as their children’s success in Yiddishkeit.

ZD: I agree that Chassidus is not for everyone. I hope you also realize that the MO is also not for everyone. For some, too much structure is bad, for others, too little is bad. I think what people are pointing out is that statistically, the lesser structure option (MO) is more likely to lead to freing out.

Obviously in practice it has to go person to person. If this were just a matter of “not deviating from your father’s derech,” then that would mean it’s also a bad thing for a MO person to become Chareidi, which I doubt those posters believe.

Personally I think the reason more MO’s leave (As a percentage wise) is because the mo community is more accepting of people “less than MO” meaning you will get people who are more on the margins and a greater chance of leaving, Not everyone who belongs to a Young Israel is really orthodox. In the charedi world you are either all in or you are out. If the MO’s were more ironclad on who they let in like the charedim its likely the retention rate would be higher

The Chareidi attrition rate is possibly under 1%. The high end of the estimate is just below 2%, but it is closer to the lower end of 1%. The so-called alternative lifestyle is a minute fraction of a percent -well below a quarter of a percent.

The MO attrition rate is about 25%, according to preeminent MO Rabbi Steven Pruzansky. Clearly far more people don’t fit into a MO lifestyle than a Chareidi one.

If you want my observation on the MO commumnity, It seems its going 4 ways. Zionism is a big part of MO and many of the younger people decide to stop being arm-chair zionists and become real zionists and move to Israel and become Dati-Leumi. Another percentage is becomong more Charedi a third is staying and the rest is leaving, I do not belive that 40% number as it doesnt seem to count those who became Charedi or move to israel (Although its possible the 40% lumps those who leave altogether and those who become charedi)

Joseph, the chareidi mesorah of prioritizing sitting and learning all day only dates to the establishment of Israel. In the centuries leading up to ww2, only the best and brightest learned all day as the social state didn’t exist. If you wanted to eat, you had to work. There was no Meficaid etc

DY

When you accept a broader group of people you will get more a broader religious variance , even going into young Israels, the young Israel of Far Rockaway is very different than a young israel in Suffolk County, NY (Suffolk County NY has the lowest jewish religous observance rate of any of the NYC Suburban areas)