- This topic has 9 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
I can’t seem to find them. Many domesticated birds are discussed but not chickens. I then checked some non-Jewish sources, which based on archeology suggest that chickens were introduced into Eretz Yisrael shortly after the time we believe was Matan Torah (i.e.during the period from the conquest through Bayits Rishon). This has two implications:
1. It is a “proof” we can bring when arguing with frei Jews that Humash is not a later forgery attributed to an earlier period, since if that were so it would certainly contain references to what became the most common domestic fowl among Jews. Chickens were common by the end of Bayis Rishon (when the apikoresim say Humash was written), but not prior to the period of the shoftim (i.e. not during the time of us being in the midbar).
2. It suggests that the concept of a “mesorah” (tradition) as to which birds are kosher has always been flexible (bad news for turkeys and braekel/heirloom chickens hoping for long lives). Usually when we talk about halacha based on a mesorah, we mean a tradition going back to Sinai, but for birds it suggests a tradition reflecting the consensus of earlier generations of Bnei Torah (turkeys to the early achronim, chickens to the period of the Shoftim and Bayis Rishon).We need a mesorah for birds because the Torah doesn’t list the kosher species, it lists the non kosher species, and the ones not listed are kosher. Since we can no longer identify the non kosher ones, we need a mesorah to ensure that whichever bird we are looking at is not in fact listed by the Torah as non kosher.
No
akuperma,
1. It is a “proof” we can bring when arguing with frei Jews that Humash is not a later forgery attributed to an earlier period, since if that were so it would certainly contain references to what became the most common domestic fowl among Jews. Chickens were common by the end of Bayis Rishon (when the apikoresim say Humash was written), but not prior to the period of the shoftim (i.e. not during the time of us being in the midbar).
I think you mean secular biblical scholars and not frei Jews. If you ask a typical frei Jew when the Torah was written, he’d say, “beats me!” It’s an interesting point, but I don’t think it would make any difference in a debate.
2. It suggests that the concept of a “mesorah” (tradition) as to which birds are kosher has always been flexible (bad news for turkeys and braekel/heirloom chickens hoping for long lives). Usually when we talk about halacha based on a mesorah, we mean a tradition going back to Sinai, but for birds it suggests a tradition reflecting the consensus of earlier generations of Bnei Torah (turkeys to the early achronim, chickens to the period of the Shoftim and Bayis Rishon).
We have to rely on a mesora of kashrus for bird species now because we can no longer definitely identify the non-kosher bird species that the Torah lists. I think it’s safe to assume that Jews living in the Bayis Rishon period knew the non-kosher bird species definitively, and therefore could eat chickens because they knew they weren’t on the list.
So it seems that “mesorah” in the case of birds does NOT mean from Sinai, but means only “a well established custom among the frum Jews”, which leaves open the question of how such a “mesorah” comes into being.
There is no Mesora from Sinai on all Kosher birds. There is only a Mesora on which are the NON kosher birds listed in the Torah. Being that today we no longer know which birds are non Kosher we, therefore, need a mesora on which birds are kosher. Once we know they were always eaten we also know that they aren’t from the non kosher birds the Torah lists
The most incontrovertible evidence that chickens were not explicitly mentioned in the Torah is that you will not find a single chicken (or parts thereof) exhibited in the Living Torah Museum on 41st Street in Brooklyn curated by the noted expert Rav Shaul Shimon Deutsch, shlita. Rav Deutsch’s exhibit shows the 24 types of birds specifically mentioned in the Torah and not a single chicken is to be found. That should settle the matter.
What is a chicken?
A in MD:
I’d make an exception with some of the OTD folks that try to discredit the Torah and this is one of their “tactics”.I believe Reform and Conservative also don’t believe Torah is is from Hashem which further validates Akuperma’s point.
Biblical scholars or not, they consider themselves knowledgeable enough to “hock”…
which leaves open the question of how such a “mesorah” comes into being.
As Avram pointed out, it presumably dates back to a time when they still recognized all of the non kosher species mentioned in the Torah.
Chicken is mentioned in Talmud Bavli, regarding a homicidal chicken in Jerusalem.
Rooster is mentioned in davening every day
Whose chickens?
What about the concept of Psik reisha?- that involved a chicken/rooster.
According to dina di’Gmara, there are simanim of which birds are kosher and which only aren’t. The acaharonim were afraid that we can no longer recognize which birds are kosher based on these simanim alone, so they instituted a chumra not to eat birds without a mesorah. The Jews of Bayis Rishon didn’t need a mesorah on chickens since they could use simanim. So would Ravina and Rav Ashi, and probably most rishonim.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.