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As a longtime kiruv professional with many many success stories over many years, I know that despite the loud naysayers insisting otherwise, being mekarev Yidden by letting them know the full truth and nothing but the truth about Yiddishkeit, including issues that the 21st century Western world vehemently disagrees with Torah Judaism on — such as women’s roles in life, the harsh punishments the Torah mandates for various sins, the capital offense of toeiva, etcetera — does work. And these choshove baalei teshuva who accept the Torah and its many obligations and required beliefs b’ahava, are much much more likely to remain Torah True in good times as well as in difficult times. Unlike those who become outwardly frum after being sold a bill of goods by a so-called kiruv professional who falsely tells them that the Torah is almost fully compatible with Western values and belief system.
The question here today is whether a “half kiruv” is worse than no kiruv. That is, teaching a non-frum Yid about the laws of the Torah, even knowing he’s highly unlikely to accept a Torah based life but hoping and sometimes succeeding in bringing him “closer to Jewish tradition”. Meanwhile, whereas before his half kiruv he was a tinok shenishba, now after knowing the obligations to keep Shabbos, etc., he’s no longer a tinok shenishba but rather a wilful mechallel Shabbos (and mechallel the other mitzvos he became familiar with but doesn’t observe).
The anti kiruv people agree with most of what you just said.
🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😆
Is there still such a thing as a tinok shenishba? I think the kiruv movement destroyed them all already.
You’ve set up a straw man. Kiruv professionals and volunteers who are not of the same approach as you don’t lie, or say that which is incompatible is compatible. In my 25 years experience as both a volunteer and professional in kiruv and in other areas of Jewish professional work, What I have seen is that these professionals and volunteers, from Chabad to Aish to NCSY, see a process, not an abrupt black and white moment. They encourage Jews to take on one mitzvah at a time, and focus on what they ARE doing, rather than on what they are not doing, and the process brings those mitzvos that are most challenging in to discussion and then observance as well, in time. I know of several baalei tshuva who are very successful, who support mosdos from Kiryas Yoel to Yerushalayim to Los Angeles who have been mekarev in exactly this manner, and have grown in their frumkeit to the greatest heights; what’s more, because of their journey, they understand the need to keep striving, and have an incredible anivus about their yiddishkeit and their success . But hey, if you feel empowered to contradict the approaches of the Lubavitcher Rebbe and Rav Noach Weinberg, zichronom livrocho, be my guest.
Here’s what the Lubavitcher Rebbe said in 5751, according to the Chabad.org discussion on tinok shenishba
“However when one stresses and emphasizes the disadvantage of those who are non-observant, also adding warnings of punishment and retribution, Heaven forbid, not only is this not the way to strengthen the keeping of Torah and mitzvos, rather it weakens observance and distances the non-observant from doing teshuvah.”
I heard in the name of the Chazon Ish that since the truth is hard to behold, even living in a Frum neighborhood one can be a Tinok Shenishba. He was never really exposed to be able to ‘know’ the truth to the degree that you’d consider him one who recognizes his Creator and chose to turn away.
The success rate for full Kiruv is very low, Many people are interested in Judaism, but interested in going all in. Kiruv organizations depend on fundraising and “success stories” to get that fundraising. If they do not show some success they will not get the money.
Better to show donors 100 people who learn once a week at lunch than 1 person who becmes a yeshiva Bocher
Even within organizations, its not a settled question. For example, from personal experience, NCSY had a debate and open forum at a staff conference six-seven years ago, with one side making the case for focusing on a few who will make a complete and quick change in their life to frumkeit, vs reaching exponentially more people and giving them the tools to make appropriate Jewish choices in ther lives, and guiding and moving them towards frumkeit if they are inclined to do so. Both sides were represented by some of the leading kiruv rabbis in the OU/NCSY orbit, and both made a good case for their side.
Zahavasdad, why are you implying that learning less than a Yeshiva Bochur is less of a Baal Teshuva?
You misunderstood
Some of the “successes” claimed by KIruv groups are people who go to a Lunch and Learn once or twice a week and maybe go to shul once a week or so
I thought Zahavasdad’s point was pretty clear.
I think what he’s saying is true. Those 100 college kids who learn once a week with their local Chabad, and will probably stay frie forever all have parents with wallets. That’s 99 more wallets than the 1 full success.
That being said, the thread is supposed to be about the halachic merit. To me, the bigger problem is that kiruv ends up building a kind of PC culture where a lot more is presented as acceptable than really is. Eg. “Yeah, of course you can be a totally good Jewish woman and wear short shorts! There’s NOTHING wrong with it!” They assume they’ll get a chance to tell them the truth later, but that chance doesn’t always come.
For the record, I love this thread. 2017 and Joseph’s still got it. And, here we are giving serious responses to a post that’s obviously at least 60% troll.
My impression is that most Rabbanim and mechanchim say that one is supposed to grow slowly and take small steps. The main thing is that you are going in the right direction.
As such, it wouldn’t make sense to say that you are now creating a situation in which these people are sinning b’maized as opposed to before when they did not know better. They are doing what they are supposed to be doing and taking small steps.
By the way, you can also ask the same question about your own children. Since most people do lots of aveiros and are oiver on many halachos, isn’t it better to make sure not to educate your children so that they will be tinok shenishba?
The reason why it’s not (even though it might seem like it is) is because you are doing someone the biggest favor when you teach them about Yiddishkeit! In one of Rav Matisyahu Salomon’s sefarim, he raises the question: “Why should we do kiruv?” He brings several possible answers which he rejects. I believe he mentions the fact that they are tinok shenishba, so the reason for teaching them can’t be that they are obligated in the Mitzvos.
The answer that he ends up with is that teaching someone about Torah and Mitzvos is the biggest favor you can do for them.
I suppose for most non-relgious people looking into orhtodox judaism, at some point there will be a brick wall that cannot be crossed, ive seen it in other discussion areas,
Lilmods approach sounds reasonable, who says that Hashem expects all or nothing? Perhaps only a marginal movement in the right direction fulfills this persons tachlis.
That said, Joseph, I do find the question intriguing. But conventional wisdom from the gedolim indicates the chiyuv to do kiruv, which of course means it is the right thing to do.There are two questions here. 1. Is it right to mislead people about Judaism to do kiruv? The answer I think would be no. But those doing kiruv probably think they are pitching the whole true story of what being frum is about. 2. If you know someone isn’t going to listen you shouldn’t tell them. At the same time 80-90% of Jews in America aren’t frum. So you can’t just abandon all those people. There are kids going to college who never saw teffilin! Sticking your head in the sand isn’t a solution. I can’t just not learn halacha and claim i didn’t keep it bc I didn’t know it.
It depends what is meant by “half kiruv.” If it means “half observance,” well, most BTs don’t keep everything all at once. Could be they’re not required to “take the plunge” and as of tomorrow morning to behave like 100% frum Jews. All the experts recommend taking things slowly . So, in that sense, the “all or nothing approach” is not a good idea.
But, if we’re talking about “half commitment” in terms of what the potential BT should be taught, this is where the question arises. Teach them “halfway,” but teenage boys and girls mingling socially is not a problem, well, I’d say that the “mekarever” himself needs “kiruv.” Here we are getting back to the old saw about “one man’s extremist is the other man’s ehrlicher Yid.”
It’s one thing to teach total commitment even if observance is presently only at half or quarter-throttle. It’s quite another to teach someone from the outset that certain halachos, customs and behavior is just for “those fanatics or extremists.” The former is OK, The latter is a reprehensible distortion of Torah.Rabbi Reisman often quotes Beshem R’ Moshe “Nur ah Ger miz mekabel zayn Kol Hatorah bevas Achas” (Only a convert is required to accept upon himself the entire Torah at one shot)
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