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Please explain kosher electricity in layman’s terms.
Would having *kosher electricity* change electricity usage on Shabbat?
Thank you ☺
How about you start of by explaining what you think it is, and then we’ll explain why that’s ridiculous.
Please explain kosher electricity in layman’s terms.
It’s electricity without wires or current. For example, a piece of challah, or gefilte fish, or a sefer.
It is muttar to eat challah and gefilte fish on Shabbos, or to look at a sefer.
Some use the term in EY to refer to power that has generated without any yidden working at the powerplant on Shabbos or in any way indirectly resulting in chilul Shabbos for power consumed. Some areas of Meah Shearim etc. have their own “Shabbos generators”…
I’m sure there may be other meanings but this is one possibility.LB, if indeed you are referring to what GH wrote, the issue is that some refrain from benefitting from electricity powered devices, even if turned on before Shabbos, where there’s a concern that a Jew did melacha on Shabbos to maintain the power supply.
“Kosher” electricity would be, as GH described, electricity free of this concern.
Dor, that is not kosher, it is possibly mehadrin (if the generator makes noise or is smelly it is not even kosher). Rav Shlomo Zalman ruled that because electrical system repairs are needed for sick and elderly people all may benefit (ner l’echad, ner l’mea).
Many Charedi Jews in Israel do not use electricity from the Israeli Electric Company on Shabbos.
There are generators in pretty much all Charedi cities these days…the problem mentioned of being smelly, noisy etc is not an issue because they are not individual, people are “hooked up” to a central generator.
Some people also choose to use Rechargeable Batteries (big ones) to power their homes; although this wont cover air conditioners so they are often not used.
A lot of Charedi people use from the regular Hashmal but many here are concerned about this issue, although to be part of a generator can sometimes double a monthly electric bill.
There is a lot of uncertainty about what goes on in the electric company on Shabbos and people have all different versions of events.
My understanding is that the Psak from Rav Shlomo Zalman works for when there is a problem with the electricity but not when things are being done manually by Jews during normal function of electricity ie. when they dont need to.It is an issue where the electric utilities are owned by non-frum Jews and hire Jewish workers to run them. That is an issue in Eretz Yisrael since if you make use of the government’s electric supplier, you are in effect hiring Jews to do malacha for you on Shabbos.
An alternative is not to use electricity on Shabbos (note that no gedolim used electricity on Shabbos prior to the late 19th century or early 20th century), or to use only batteries and one’s own generator (if it can run safely without human involvement), or to have one’s own generator and hire a non-Jew to run it.
The biggest sakanah with so called “personal” Shabbos generators in frum neighborhoods is that many (not all) are hooked up illegally without the required protective equipment that would prevent backfeed into the grid and this puts the lives of chevrat chashmal workers at risk. They are also fueled by propane or diesel which must be stored on site which creates even greater fire hazards. There have been deaths and injuries reported as a direct result of these illegal generators.
Binyomint, the “regular” work is also needed to keep the power flowing (although today much of it is computerized). BTW, Rav Ovadia noted (Chazon Ovadia-Shabbat, volume 6 page 158) that this work is also needed for security reasons and is also lenient. On the other hand, if someone wants to be a big machmir he should not use electricity at all on Shabbat because of marit ayin. This, of course. also means using a gas or kerosene heater in the winter with all of the attendant dangers (or bundling up). He thus would not be able to live in the newer buildings in Yerushalayim as they have central heating which is not controlled by the individual residents.
Avi K – can you explain what you mean about central heating not controlled by individual residents? Don’t newer buildings use either central or split units to heat and cool, which run on electricity, each apartment having their own unit(s)? The really old buildings have furnaces for the whole building with radiators in each apartment, and the tenants had to decide together when to heat- but those ran on oil. then the more modern buildings started putting in mini furnaces (Yunkers) into each apartment, also oil or gas based. But now I think people realize that electricity is the cheapest option, and they use the “mazgan” to both heat and cool.
which reminds me of a “cool” story told about Rav Shach (I think). Someone offered to buy him an A/C for his house, but he turned down the offer because he would not have been able to run it on the generator on shabbos, and he did not want to be more comfortable during the week than on shabbos.Winnie, it could be that the very new buildings have individually- controlled units. When I lived in Gilo 25 years ago the apartment did not have such a unit. The vaad habayit (building committee) decided when to give heat (pretty good – baruch Hashem I thawed out very quickly after a big snowstorm) and charged a (substantial) addition to the maintenance fee. The really old buildings do not have anything. Each tenant must heat for himself. Electric radiators and blow heaters are very common (charitable organizations give them out to the poor).
Mazganim are not that necessary in Yerushalayim in the summer but in other parts of the country they are common. I heard that in Eilat they have (or at least had at one time) “desert coolers” which work better and cheaper in dry climates.
As for your acquaintance, how does he heat his apartment? As I pointed out, gas and kerosene heaters are not so safe so he is sacrificing a Torah prohibition for the sake of a chumra (which may be the same prohibition and worse as per Dor.
25+ year old is not considered a “newer” building, not for a country that is only 70 years old, with most people probably living in neighborhoods built post-statehood, or post 6 day war. I’ve lived in those types of buildings too; the “central heating” found in them ran on oil, not electricity.
By the way, Rav Shach was obviously not my acquaintance, I wrote that I heard a story about him. And he lived in Bnei Brak, where heating is not so necessary. I trust Rav Shach would have known whether it was halachically ok to use alternative sources of heating when it was necessary, and the difference between chumra and halacha.I’ve been so many cities here that have central air. In beit shemesh, Yerushalayim, beitar etc. Almosy all new apartments have it.
AviK, I think it has been a long time since you were in EY. Ever since the Gulf War, which was just before you were living in Gilo, according to your post, apartments have been built with sealed rooms and individual heating units. Ramat Shlomo, which was started around that time is the prime example. There is no longer any building since that time, at least here in Y-m area, that is built according to the technical details that you mention. They lay water pipes through the whole apartment before they put in the floors and hook them up to heating devices in each room, which connects to the main unit that is controlled ONLY by the person living in the apartment.
As far as air conditioning, again, it has been a long time since you were here. Back in those days (I’m here for 24+ years now), Y-m was a much cooler city and yes, you did not need air conditioning back then. Now it is just as hot as many other places, though not as humid. For example, we have days and weeks of 30+ weather, when 33 is not uncommon. That translates to around 90 degrees for people who speak in Fahrenheit. I would not want to just have a fan in 90-degree weather. Maybe it depends on how many batteries you have or how much you get allowed from your local generator, but perhaps you could have one room unit on that kind of electrical supply on Shabbos so that you do not melt.
Generators in use today must be more powerful than the ones used in the past; I know many people using them in places that can get very hot in the summer, I can’t believe that they are all melting every shabbos for months on end. also generators are used in some shuls that for sure have the A/C on all day.
Nechama- strange, I remember Yerushalayim as being very bearable in the summer, maybe with just 1 week of really hot weather that you would need an A/C – That’s when people went to visit their friends and relatives in hotter places like Bet Shemesh that did have A/C. Now, everyone I know in Yerushalayim has it and can’t seem to survive without it. It seems that Yerushalayim during the day time can get as hot as Bet Shemesh, difference is the nights/evenings are cooler. And it seems we have not seen below 30 degree weather since early June.
Boy, things must be very tame in the CR if we are talking about the weather!Could someone kindly explain to me what is the difference using a personal, private generator or the main Israeli one? Do you think that the main Israeli generator is TURNED / powered by humans (and Yidden no less)?
Could someone here enlighten (pun intended) me?
LF
The main generators must be on at all times and someone must watch the dashboards and fix any problems immediately , causing a shabbos problem
The portable generators if they shut down, they shut down and use just wait until after shabbos to fix
The chevrat chashmal public affairs officers have repeatedly said that they staff their dispatch centers on Shabbos with non-Jewish engineers etc. and only call in their Jewish employees in emergency conditions. Some take them at their word…some prefer to have their own personal generators, notwithstanding the risk that improperly located and installed units pose major safety concerns.
ZD, I’m still in the dark (intended). Is that the way a generator has to be run, with someone constantly looking to see if it’s turning. Do you think maybe Israel should buy a better generator for their company, one that doesn’t need constant tinkering…
LF, Although I have no idea how these things work, I doubt that operating/maintaining the electric grid is totally automated and does not need humans at all. Someone has to fly the kite, no? Do ConEd, PSE&G et al. shut down on weekends and holidays and have no staff working?
Froggie…not sure If you are joking or serious about “buying better generators”……IEA operates several large coal-fired baseload plants using relatively modern steam boilers and turbine generators….they’ve also added a number of new natural gas-fired combustion turbines. ( I think they’ve shut down most of the old oil-fired steam units but may keep them on standby for emergency use). By definition, these generating units are cycled to follow load (less so for the baseload coal, more so for the gas fired units and peakers). All of these units have AGC dispatch via computer telemetry but still require a small team in the dispatch center 24×7. No utility in the world is completely automated. IEA also buys power from about a dozen independent generators with varying size units, some which may not require 24×7 staffing if they are linked via AGC and have the appropriate telemetry. In addition to the Staffing at the plants who monitor boiler feed and turbine performance, IEA also has several hundred line crews available 24×7 in case of any wire outages.
No, I was not joking. I just didn’t (and still can’t) understand that someone has to be turning dials 24/7 to keep electricity going. Aren’t we somewhere in the 20th century? And if so, will such a minute (safek) intervention not invalidate the regular electricity use as being from a chilul shabbos?
Avi K: You wrote “if the generator makes noise or is smelly it is not even kosher”. It seems that the Chazon Ish is of the opinion that a generator is not assur because of the noise.
Hilchos Shabbos B’Shabbos Perek Beis Ois Chaf Daled and footnote 38.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46211&st=&pgnum=81&hilite=
.לענין הפעלת גנרטור, שאלו למרן החזו”א ז”ל למה אין בו משום
השמעת הקול, והשיב דהגנרטור צועק “שבת”. וכונתו נראה דכשם שכ’ הפו’
שדבר שהדרך להעריכו מאתמול אין בו משום השמעת הקול דליכא זילותא
בזה, ה”ה בגנרטור שכל שמושו הוא רק ע”מ שלא יהנו מחשמל המופעל
בשבת וכל מגמתו רק כדי להעריכו מבעו”י דאל”כ אין בו שום תועלת בודאי
לא גרע משעון הנ”ל דשרי.
וכמו כן לענין מקרר אע”פ שמשמיע קול הואיל ודרכו להעריכו ביום
א’ לזמן רב בודאי לא יבואו לומר שהדליקוהו בשבת.“I just didn’t (and still can’t) understand that someone has to be turning dials 24/7 to keep electricity going.”
Many problems can occur in a generating plant. Electrical circuits can overheat. Mechanical bearings can break. Steam lines can rupture. Even with 100% automation, there have to be human beings around to deal with unexpected issues.
Exactly. That’s what I’m getting at. So my question is, is that occurrence(s) enough to render the ENTIRE usage as being derived from Chilul Shabbos. Would you say that maybe gas pipes can break, so maybe there’ll be chilul Shabbos there and we can’t use gas? What is the criteria? Is an electric plant a definite need of human intervention (today) so as to render the whole as a product of chilul Shabbos?
LF
Its a Machlokes, because certainly some people need that power like hospitals and you can be mechalel shabbos for them
Froggie….
Again, not sure what the relevance of a natural gas pipeline system is to an electric power network. Whereas gas is effectively “stored” in a pipeline under pressure and can be released as necessary with variations in demand, electricity is unlike any other utility service since it must be supplied real time and generation must be balanced with load on 24×7 basis. Further, the IEA grid is has few interconnections with Jordan or Egypt unlike other countries that can import power when shortages arise. As noted earlier, AGC telemetry and advanced control algorithms have substantially reduced the need for human intervention but some amount of real time human intervention will be needed for the indefinite future. Computers cannot perform certain tasks which are needed for real time monitoring of system thermal stability and voltage support. If you still don’t understand, try reading some background material on electric systems on Wikopedia or other non-technical sites and it may become more intuitive. While individual homes can go “off the grid” and there are some “micro-grids” in Tel Aviv and Haifa, those account for less than 2 or 3 percent of total end-user demand. Individuals who worry about chilul Shabbos and illegally install their own generators in densely populated urban areas are endangering large numbers of people and their mindless behavior is beyond understanding. Fortunately, these individuals are being tracked down and prosecuted by the authorities and several have been sentenced to prison. If you don’t like the IEA services or don’t trust their assurances in reference to Shabbos, simply open the circuit breaker on your electric panel and have a guten Shabbos by candelight with the windows open.
Thank you for taking your time to explain it to me
Froggie..your welcome…there is nothing that the management of the IEA (aka chevrat chashmal would like better than to be able to automate the entire system. For many years, it was the most bloated government-owned business with the Histadrut insisting on many unnecessary employees. Its gotten a lot more streamlined in recent years.
Nechomah, actually baruch Hashem I have been living in EY for almost 30 years. However, Hashem has not seen fit to give me such an apartment. I do have friends in RBS who have an individually-controlled unit but I did not ask everyone has it or if they put it in special.
Iiacisrmma, I was not just referring to השמעת קול. There are also issues of בן אדם לחבירו such as disturbing people’s peace, גזל שינה and impinging on their right to live normally in their homes (the smell). As I posted on another thread, if people want to be big machmirs they should do so in their interpersonal relations.
Avi K: I don’t know what thread you are referring to. I do not know about the Ben Adam L’chaveiro issues in dealing with the generators but it seems that we can be medayek from the Chazon Ish that it may not be a problem since he states that the “kol” of the generator screams Shabbos. You have practical experience that I cannot relate to so I will defer to you that other pokim address this issue.
As to generators that emit a smell I would have to agree with you. We know that one cannot use fuel (oils and the like) to light neiros shabbos if they emit a bad odor.
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