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Not get married, I suppose.
What’s a boy to do if he’s is an am ha’aretz?
Daven. Things worked out just fine for rivka imenu. Rochel and Leah too.
Not everything is, or should be, about control.
I have heard in the name of Gedolim, (I forget who but perhaps someone can let us know) that any girl who studies in a seminary nowadays, has the status of of a bas Talmid Chochom of old. This is the great achievement of Sarah Schneirer
If you mean by this that there is a concern that a ben Torah needs to marry someone who is a “bas Talmid Chacham”, Reb Moshe z”l has a famous teshuva regarding this and similar issues and he states clearly that a girl can be a “bas Talmid Chacham” regardless of her father’s status! If she was raised not in a home of Torah but conducts herself with tznius and is machshiv Torah and really works on herself, she can be zocheh to this and to marry a proper ben Torah.
Bracha v’Hatzlacha!She can become a talmidat chacham. See Sanhedrin 96a regarding the children of ammei aratzot.
There is definition needed here, as there may be varied perceptions of what is meant by תלמיד חכם. Until that is established, no one here can understand the other.
Define please.
The girl should find a nice boy whose father is in business or the professions, who will value the girl for herself and not her father’s learning.
One marries the girl, not the shverCTL, the Torah tells us to judge the girl’s father and brothers, and insure they’re upstanding Torah Jews, before agreeing to marry her.
Seems “the famous teshuva of Reb Moshe z’l” (i’m not familiar with it or what it says, only what someone here claims it says) contradicts Reb Joseph Shlita.
joseph: I know the mekor in the Torah for the brothers, but where is the mekor for the father?
iac: The Gemorah about marrying a Bas Talmid Chochom.
@joseph
one can be an upstanding Torah Jew without being a Talmid Chacham…not everyone can be a scholarCTL, if one is capable of being a legal scholar it seems to me he’d also be capable of being a Torah scholar, would he have chosen to so apply himself to it.
joseph: I am asking for the passuk in the Torah like we have for the brother.
iac: When I say Torah I’m using it in the broad sense to include what Chazal teach us.
@Joseph yes it says you should check out the brothers….it does not say they need to be a talmud chochom….it is referring to their middos if that…and doesn’t make anything a requirement rather just saying if you want to know what your sons will be like look at her brothers….for the good the bad and the ugly
Most people, if not all, care about how their children’s middos will be. So it is prudent to research her brothers before marrying her, to insure they are baalei middos, so that your children will likely be too — as the Torah tells us.
Her punishment for murder is execution, so she is beheaded and will never have a shidduch.
(Is there, then, a pasuk about the brothers?)
And what’s a girl to do if her brothers aren’t baalei middos?
If her brothers aren’t baalei middos who is marrying her brothers? 😕
“If her brothers aren’t baalei middos who is marrying her brothers? 😕”
Girls with bad middos brothers.
Geordie: “I have heard in the name of Gedolim, (I forget who but perhaps someone can let us know) that any girl who studies in a seminary nowadays, has the status of of a bas Talmid Chochom of old. This is the great achievement of Sarah Schneirer”
I have heard this also, but I also don’t remember who said it. I didn’t think it specified “seminary” though – I think it was “Bais Yaakov”. My understanding was that it referred to high school. But I could be wrong.
On the one hand, it is due to the achievement of Sara Schnirer, but I had also thought that it had to do with the fact that nowadays the home is not the biggest influence on a girl.
This can either be a positive thing or a negative thing, depending on what her home is like and what her school is like. But it does seem to put more control in the girl’s own hands. Even if a bas – non-Talmid-Chacham was doomed in the olden days, it seems that this is less likely to be the case today.
In any case, the reason for not marrying a girl whose father is not a Talmid Chacham or whose brothers don’t measure up (in Middos), is because of the assumed effect on the girl.
If it in fact has that effect on her, then presumably she won’t be interested in the type of boy who doesn’t want a girl with that effect. And if she is an exception and it doesn’t have that effect on her, then presumably it would be okay for the type of boy who (normally) cares about these things to marry her.
Bottom line – people who are on a certain level generally prefer to marry people who are similar to them.
Although, there are exceptions – I don’t have good middos, but I want to marry someone with good middos. But my brother has good middos, so I guess it’s okay.
What ever happend to the quaint notion of judging a baas yisroel by her own knowledge of daas torah, her own midos and her own attributes rather than focusing on her father, her brothers, or her machatunim? It seems every other week there is another thread on some variation of this theme of shidduchim driven by the yichus of the choson or kallah rather than focusing on the individuals and their own merits.
here’s a thought:
if you go back several generations when the girl primarily stayed home, it may have been hard to “research” her and find out about her middos, etc. The best and most tzanua way would be to investigate the people closest to her, who were more out in the open and easier to get to know- i.e. her father, who obviously would be a big influence on her and how she was raised, and her brothers, who since they were raised in the same home that she was, would reflect her values and middos. Think of it as shidduch research by proxy. And since her father was probably the only male influence she had, whether he was or was not a talmid chachom would have a lot to do with whether she was prepared to/wanted to marry a talmid chachom.
Now that girls are educated outside the home, and spend more time with people outside their family, it is not a given that she will be the same as her brothers and fathers, or that they are her most important influence. But because of that, it is easier to investigate her directly.Thanks Winnie….very cogent and thoughtful analysis. However, your takeaway is the key point…today and going forward, more focus should be on the individual and less on the family’s pedigree….it may be relevant for purchasing a racehorse but less for a prospective spouse
it may be relevant for purchasing a racehorse but less for a prospective spouse
Funny. I would think exactly the opposite
A racehorse shadchan (aka “studfinder”) works almost entirely from computer based predictive models built around the pedigrees of the horse going back several generations to the alte heim (aka Kentucky)….they don’t do trial dates or need much if any personal interaction with their clients…
I once had to put up shelves in a closet but I didn’t have a studfinder so I just drilled a bunch of holes until I found a stud and then measured from there.
Personally, I have always been hesitant to date guys who are coming from cultural backgrounds that entail a different perspective than the one I grew up with regarding husband/wife roles because I think it would create big problems in my marriage.
I don’t make assumptions based on background and I do check out the individual, but so far, I have almost always (if not always) found that it does make a difference in terms of a person’s inherent mentality on these issues (which is the very reason why I have the mentality that I do and why I don’t think it’s something that would change).
No matter who you marry, there are tons of adjustments because each specific family within any “type” is different anyhow, but when you throw in a different “type of background”, it is likely to be even more difficult.
Of course, the extent to which this is likely to be a problem very much depends on the specific person, and everyone has to know himself.
I used to think that family was totally irrelevant and that people who looked at family were closed-minded, but over the years, I have come to realize that that was close-minded of me, and that family may matter to some extent.
The question is to what extent and in what ways. But even that is individual (and may depend on the family to some extent). I can see how it’s possible that for people who are coming from a different kind of background than I am, certain things might matter that are hard for me to understand.
I am not disagreeing withe the above comments at all – I actually very much agree – but I also believe that it’s important to try to see both sides and not be too judgmental of others who are coming from a different kind of background/mentality and may look at things differently.
And I think it is pretty obvious that when it comes to many things, people are highly influenced by their families. So while the individual is more important than the family, it may make sense to try to find someone who is match in both ways if possible.
…ASK MY DAUGHTERS!!!
So of course, I am a Talmud Chacham, but my wife isn’t the daughter of one. Neither did she go to seminary! It did not occur to me in my feeble daas at the time that this could be a potential issue. Our teenage son is now on the path to becoming Modern. I am thinking my wife may be the cause as her father and her upbringing are insufficient! I am klehring that it may be time to divorce her as it just doesn’t ‘past’ for us to be together, if our offspring will not be capable of handling the true Ol Torah. Considering the shidduch crisis, where there is a 20% surplus of single, worthy bnos yisroel waiting for their bashert, I am klehring if Hakadosh Boruch Hu is giving me the machshava to marry a more worthy woman and doing a lofty chesed of providing a young single woman the zechus to bear children from a Talmid chacham. Perhaps then, we can be zoche to bring true Talmidei Chacochim in this world?
Toi Meno:
And what is the shiduch analogy to drilling multiple holes until you find the stud in your closet?uh, so that’s the answer to your question, RY – she should marry someone who is into Kiruv and convince him that it’s kidai to marry her since he will have the opportunity to be mekarev her father and brothers.
GH,
No analogy. It was just a story relating to stud finders.
If a girl has a brother in yeshiva he can look around yeshiva and get her va shiduch with a good learner even if her father isn’t a talmid chochom. That’s what I did!
Now, if the girl has a good job like being an accountant, pt, ot (you know the drill) then she’s upping her odds of getting a guy who wants to learn in kollel too since she can support him.
I’m not saying she needs to do this. There are many fine working guys. But it can be done.What if she doesn’t have a brother in Yeshiva and she’s not an accountant, ot or pt? Is she doomed?
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