- This topic has 8 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 3 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
There is a heter (under very specific circumstances; see CC 2.1-3) to speak Loshon Hora which was said b’apei t’loso – in front of three people. If it was publicly declared, it is considered ‘soifo l’gluyei’ (something that will eventually be revealed) and there is no issur to retell the information.
If someone tells me a story that he heard in front of three people, the Chofetz Chaim (2.4) rules that I am not allowed to retell it. Although if I would know that it was said in front of three I would be allowed to, he classifies this as עד אחד נגד איתחזק – this is something you were not allowed to say, and you may not believe an עד אחד who comes to מתיר something that was until now forbidden.
I have numerous problems with this psak:
1) When it is בידו, the עד אחד is believed. This is explicitly paskened in Gittin 54. The Chofetz Chaim explains that here בידו won’t help, because it is בידו באיסור – there is no legitimate way for him to create the hetter. The problem is, the Gemara there talks about cases where it is בידו באיסור and says you are נאמן, like a Kohen Godol testifying that his Korbon is Piggul, or someone testifying that wine is Yayin Nesech. And it is mefurash that in both cases, he is believed.
2) If the listener is not allowed to believe the informer that he [the informer] heard it in front of three, he should not be allowed to listen. By extension, the informer should not be allowed to tell him, because of לפני עור. So to say that it is muttar to repeat a story heard in front of three but it is assur for one who hears it from him to repeat it is paradoxical.
3) The Chofetz Chaim in Klal 4.11 writes that when asking for information which l’toieles, you must inform the person you are speaking to that it is l’toieles. It is pretty clear that the person you are asking is allowed to believe you that it is l’toieles and therefore impart the necessary information to you. Why is this not subject to the same problem? Why isn’t this עד אחד נגד איתחזק, and you should not be allowed to ever say loshon horo unless you know the toieles first hand?! (This doesn’t even have the advantage of בידו; this would prove that this isn’t considered איתחזק at all – I can think of at least two reasons why this should be so). I can think of a distinction between the l’toieles case and the apei t’losah case, but I wonder if anyone can help me answer this.
Your thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.
Regarding issue #2: the examples given of biyado are not b’chezkas issur, unlike your case which is b’chezkas issur.
To answer 2 (and by extension 3), In Hachi Nami. It’s a combination of Chumros that creates a Stirah. We do that sometimes. Better safe than sorry. Similarly, to answer 3, we created a situation that breaks a Halachic rule via Chumra. The CC didn’t seem to extend the Chumra even further, so as not to wipe out the Gemara’s Heter entirely.
2) If the listener is not allowed to believe the informer that he [the informer] heard it in front of three, he should not be allowed to listen. By extension, the informer should not be allowed to tell him, because of לפני עור. So to say that it is muttar to repeat a story heard in front of three but it is assur for one who hears it from him to repeat it is paradoxical.
It’s not lifnei iver, because although the listener has to be choshesh that it wasn’t actually said b’apei t’lasa, the informer knows that it in fact was, and that the listener was not actually oiver on anything.
Where in hilchos loshon hora?
1. Where there is a תועלת not stating the facts would be a violation of
אל תעמוד על דם רעך. However, the listener must inform the person as to how he came by the info.2. Being מכשיל someone is not necessarily לפני עיוור. If someone else can tell him it is מסעיה לדבר עבירה. As this is a rabbinic prohibition the rules are easier.
He’s talking about where the person is saying lashon hora (because you asked him) thinking he’s just gossiping about him.
We’re talking about telling him lashon hora, where he doesn’t know what you are going to say until he says it.
Do you have a case of listening where there’s lifnei iver without any actual issur?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.