12 Responses

1. Either Israel will suddenly become a Jewish state in which the hilonim will have to adopt a policy of (being a Jew in public, while being a goy in private – the reverse of the approach of many frum Jews striving to work among the goyim) — or you’ll end up with a third to a half of the Jewish population of Eretz Yisrael supporting Neturei Karta and favoring a peace that will give up the trappings of western nationhood in return for the freedom to be frum.

   The hilonim think this is their last chance to defeat the demographic trap Israel is in, and save their community from a frum future – but they are probably too late by at least a generation. Their dream of a nation where Jews can live openly as Jews, while also being free from the yoke of Torah, is an idea whose time came, and has gone. Even if they manage to defeat the hareidim, the spectacle of people who are clearly Jewish asking goyim for assylum and assistance will totally undermine the zionist. With us, they are just European colonists conquering the indigenous peoples — with us, they are indigenous peoples retaking our homeland from those who conquered it previously but still in historical times.

2. This indeed would be a one-time opportunity to break down the barriers between frum and secular components of Israeli society and make everyone feel they have a common and share burden to defend the medinah. There should be no draft deferrals for either side. Those who object to serving in the IDF can serve in some alternative role including hospitals, et. al. There is no excuse to hide behind religious belief to shift the burden of service to others.

3. akuperma – You’re ramblings are beyond wrong, they’re weird. What on earth are you talking about? You think that this whole army / national service topic would make people want to become part of the Neturei Karta?? In fact, you’re saying that a third to a half of chareidim would do so!?!?!?!? So, you’re saying that a third to a half of chareidim are going to start kissing the Iranian president (terrorist)? I assume you’re basing this on your vast experience in speaking to members of the NK. I assume your statistics are based on your many hours of canvassing the streets of the chareidi cities of Israel.

   Personally, I think quite the opposite – I think that most chareidim recognize that the NK are quite mentally ill. I also think chareidim in Israel distance themselves from the NK, who don’t even get along with other anti-zionist chareidim! (I refer to the Ger Chasidim as an example)

   In any event, it’s time for everyone to settle down – There’s no huge conspiracy. The big bad Zionist empire is not out to get you. They are not looking to wipe religious Jews off the face of the earth. They don’t have this burning desire to draft you to the army just so they can remove religion. They are simply asking for help in protecting the Land and People of Israel. Of course there are anti-religious people out there but they are a miniscule group just like the Neturei Karta. The trick is to be active in the society and remove the influence of both extremes – the anti-relig. and NK.

4. I don’t understand why the frum crowd is fighting so much against the most logical thing? I’m a ball tshuva and I must tell you I feel ashamed that people who call themselves religious are so selfish and only worry about their benefits. After all the soldiers in Israel are protecting everyone religious and not religious, and arab enemies are killing all Jews religious and not religious, and instead of a unity here, haredim decide to cause such Hilul Hashem ( i can not call it anything else). There is no army in the world that is accommodating religious Jews as much as in Israel, and the real reason is not risk for Yidishkeit. It’s clear even if everyone going to the army would be guaranteed to daven 3 times a day with minyan, eat only mehadrin, not to interfere with femailes, the number of frum Jews willing to defend the country would not be greater. You worry about the risk of becoming non frum while you are in army, so for the same reason people should not work anywhere outside of Jewish places. If religious people stayed religious after nazis & communists wanted to destroy us, I’m sure you can easily remain religious in Israeli Army, if you really want it. So let’s be honest, and talk about real reasons who frum Jews are afraid to go to army. And it’s nothing wrong to be afraid to go to the army, so they have a choice of some other community work and we frum Jews are good for that. Just think if all frum Jews will do their part with smile on their faces, and volunteer in Hospitals, safety patrols, hatzolah, Zaka, and others services. Would a Kidush hashem will it make for not religious Israelis, and bring back many our brothers and sisters to do tshuvah. And right now all it does creates more hate hate hate.

5. #2 — Your comments reflect a complete ignorance as to what this argument is about. The deferrals and exemptions for yeshiva students are not primarily because of an objection to serving in the IDF per se (although there are many practical problems with the current system regarding tznius, kashrus, etc.) The point is that Chareidim believe that learning Torah is just as critical to the survival of our nation as the army. Stopping learning in order to volunteer in a hospital is just as much a problem as stopping learning in order to serve in the IDF — both involve giving up the learning that is keeping our country safe.

6. mully says:
   July 9, 2012 at 4:20 pm

   you are making a big assumtion that all of them are learning whicjh of course is not the case why cannot the non learners go

7. peakman

   In theory you are correct however everyone will claim they are a serious learner, theres no system in place to weed out the people who are faking it.

8. To Mully…Who is going to decide who is a “real learner” and those who are faking it just to evade the draft…Oh, I understand, those who decide will be rabbonim chosen from among the prior generation of kollel yungerleit/draft evaders. No one has yet explained why these bochurim cannot serve for a year or two. Based on demographics and simple arithmetic, taking a small percentage of the Chareidi population out of yeshivos for a year or two for IDF or public service, will still leave 90+ percent of the Chareidim to sit and learn. If you don’t thats enough to provide whatever protection to EY that learning torah provides than the problem is your emnuah not the government’s policies.

9. #6, Who said the non-learners shouldn’t go? There is no law exempting charedim from the draft. The law allows those who are learning Torah full time to defer the draft until they are no longer doing so. That’s all. So non-learners do go.

   But the law as it stands is flawed, because someone who learns full time for three years should be free to go work afterwards, just like someone who has done three years in the army. The main problem is those who would like to leave the yeshivah, but under current law would immediately have to go to the army, so they stay learning longer than they would want to, and their heart is no longer in it. These people have already done their share to defend the nation, and should be free to go work.

10. Peakman —

    I am making no assumptions about who is or is not learning — I am addressing the law as was until now, which is that exemptions were given ONLY for those who were learning. There is no exemption simply for being Chareidi (unless you are a woman, in which case all frum women are eligible for an exemption) Someone who applies for an exemption claiming to be learning and is not learning is the same draft dodger as all the elite Tel Aviv youth who lie to get out of service. But when discussing the law should be we are not talking about those who are breaking the law — that is a separate issue of enforcement. The LEGAL exemption has always been for those who are learning — and that is what the Chareidi community is fighting to maintain.

11. RBS.Jew, I have very little idea what Akuperma is talking about, but one thing he CANNOT be saying is “that a third to a half of chareidim are going to start kissing the Iranian president (terrorist)”. Those wierdo’s who went to ahmadinejad are not mainstream NK, and even if they are they do not represent even the mainsteam old yishuv (meah shearim type) person.
    What he means is that even the frum who today DO vote and support the chareidi MK’s, will be forced to stop doing so, if the Plesner recommendations are approved and become law, Hasem yishmereinu.

12. I’ve heard it all the reasons and nuances. The bottom line is that people sometimes take extreme positions because they are afraid to sit down and talk about how they could create a process that takes into account the needs of different communities. It’s all pretty rational. The yeshivas are probably worried how they could possibly choose who would stay and learn and who would serve, the army is not sure how they can accomodate so many frum people etc. People need to sit down and speak to one another, acknowledge the belief systems and treat each other with respect. There can be a way to resolve this constructively.