In a weekly shiur given by HaGaon HaRav Yaakov Yosef, the rav last week addressed the issue of mamzeirus and non-frum weddings.
The rav explained that he believes if a rav must be mesader kedushin for a non-frum couple he should adopt the position of HaGaon HaRav Eliyahu Bakshi Doron Shlita and use pasul witnesses. The rav spoke of the differences between frum and non-frum couples, and the understanding in the religious world that a husband and wife remain loyal to one another, the concept of kedushin.
The fear is that a kosher chupah may lead to mamzerim among non-frum couples, with the rav explaining the women in these marriages are not always faithful and then if children result from forbidden unions the result is mamzeirus. The rav feels there are solutions for most halachic issues but not mamzeirus, prompting him to recommend using pasul witnesses, like the fathers of the chosson and kallah.
By having an invalid chupah, then at least if the worst occurs the children are not mamzerim.
“If the couple does tshuva and becomes shomer mitzvos, they can always have a kosher chupah at that time and their children can come to the chupah and rejoice with them” he adds.
One of the questions posed to the rav are the brachos recited under the chupah since the chupah is invalid. The rav explains that the mesader kedushin tells the tzibur to recite Baruch Hu U’Varuch Shemo for each bracha, at which time the mesader kedushin says “למדני חוקיך”, thereby eliminating the bracha levatala.
The rav explained that many rabbonim do not use this method, admitting it is quite problematic but undoubtedly the lesser of the evils that must be addressed when marrying a non-frum couple.
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
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26 Responses
1. If one holds that marriages involving non-frum Jews are valid, one woujld have to assume at this point that most non-frum Jews are safek mamzerim. This obviously complicates matters.
2. Some opinions hold that if the parties never intended to be frum (e.g. eating treff, no mikva except if required by the government as is the case in Israel, etc.), one can argue that they never intended to have a valid marriage, and therefore if the woman has children by someone other than her husband (as is common outside the frum community, and based on DNA has been so throughout history) they will be perfectly kosher since the child of an unmarried woman is perfectly kosher (i.e. not a mamzer).
This has been a common practise for decades by many Rabbonim called out to be be Mesader Kiddushin at Chiloni Kibbutzim and the like.
“….the rav explaining the women in these marriages are not always faithful and then if children result from forbidden unions the result is mamzeirus…”
With all respect, the Rav seems to be making a rather mistaken assumption that women in secular marriages are more prone to have affairs then their husbands. Quite the contrary. All the studies done of patterns of adultery in jewish marriages suggest the husband in considerably more likely to stray. I’m not sure where he comes up with this perception but reality seems to contradict his view and the remedy he suggests.
Akuperma is wrong in #1 and in #2.
#3, He implied nothing about the husband. Who cares what the husband does? How is it relevant?
#1, רוב בעילות הולכות אחר הבעל, so there is no sofek mamzerus in a generic case of a non-frum mother. The problem only arises if we know that the child is not the husband’s.
” Quite the contrary. All the studies done of patterns of adultery in jewish marriages suggest the husband in considerably more likely to stray”
If the husband strays there is no problem of mamzerim , as opposed to the wife having an affair if that union produces a child he is a mamzer.
I’m not saying its okay for anyone to cheat I’m just saying that by woman it’s more strict then by a man
Please keep in mind that the Rav is not well as reported here on YWN in the past.
He may have forgotten that basic din that Rov beilos achar habaal and therefore children will always be considered to be the mother’s husband’s children.
In real life every woman knows that even when she has an affair and even when she is no longer living with her legal husband a pregnancy is something to avoid at all cost because of mamzeirus. Anyone working in a beis din knows that women will come running for a get when they want to have a child with a new man.
Isn’t it Gnevas da’as for the Rav to perform a fake wedding when the couple are paying him to perform a kosher wedding? If the Rabbanut will not perform real weddings for the non-frum, then why force them to go through the Rabbanut at all? Let them have civil weddings and the mamzerut problem is solved also.
#3 – it’s not about who is more likely to go astray – the fact is it’s only an eises ish (married woman) that can produce a mamzer – not a married man.
Mr. Gadol, so you are complaining that there is no solution for when the husband gives birth to a mamzer?
This kind of argument calls into question the point of having Jewish marriages for all. If a chiloni chuppa isn’t valid, then this encourages them to live in sin.
And besides, religious people cheat too I reckon.
#3, you may be right, but the husband doesn’t have the babies. (even in this politically correct world)
Under the solution that the Rav suggests, is the marriage valid?
If the children do tshuvah at some later point will they be accepted in the frum community as potential marriage candidates?
Savlanut,
Typically when a man strays he needs another party….
Statistically, married men will stray with other married women more often than with single women. Not always but enough times to create a concern for the potential children.
It’s a safeguard for the children, not the parents.
akuperma says:
It makes you feel good to make up stories
In response to #4 (mdd)
#1- Non-frum Jews frequently engage in marriage ceremonies that might, arguably, pass for “kosher”, but almost never get a valid “get”, and if you hold their marriages to be valid, the children from subsequent marriages are mazerim. Given their high divorce rate, this is obviously a problem. This is in addition to the problem of whether their premarital and nonmarital relationships might actually be considered valid halachic marriages, and the scientfic evidence of “cheating” that is common in the general population (and supported by genetic evidence). This is mitigaged by the fact that an increasing number of non-frum Jews are actually goyim due to their high rate of intermarriage.
2. In cases of putative mamzerim, there is a clear pattern of rabbanim being very makpid in looking at weddings (and any conversions involved) to avoid ruling that someone is a mazer.
Gadolhadorah- That is exactly what the Rav was thinking when he said “the women…are not ALWAYS faithful.” The implication is that they usually are. The men, on the other hand, are almost never faithful. However, the men, as you know, are irrelevant to the issue of Mamzeirus regarding their children.
The rav spoke of the differences between frum and non-frum couples, and the understanding in the religious world that a husband and wife remain loyal to one another, the concept of kedushin.
[I thought that was not true and one of the reasons for the asifa]
#3 – Gadolhadorah “mistaken assumption that women in secular marriages are more prone to have affairs then their husbands”
Where does he say “more prone?”
His point was that only married women create mazairim; therefore married men were not discussed.
Akuperma, speak to a Posek!
Yid613,
I’m sorry but I fail to understand what your response has to do with what I said. I was reporting what has been commmon practice amongst Rabbonim being called out to be Mesader Kidushin amongst totally secular Kibbutzim and the like. I.e. the actual situation on the ground.
While we are on the topic, I am also somewhat familiar with used to go on in several secular Kibbutzim at least in the 1970s and into the mid 1980s. I suspect things have not gotten any better. Suffice to say that the Rabbonim have every reason to fear Suffek Mumzerus.
This topic has nothing to do with whether men or women are more likely to have affairs or other extraneous matters. It has everything to do with a keen understanding of what is happening in at least many secular communities. Given the choice between bad (invalid weddings) nd possibly tragic (Mamzerus) many Rabbonim choose the former.
in all these discussions,whatever happened to “vadai mamzer omar rachmono velo sofek mamzer”-meaning that in mamzerus , there is no such thing as a ‘sofek mamzer’ because the Torah (as the gemoro explains) ONLY foribds someone that we know FOR USRE is a mamzer. Anynone else is not considered a mamzer. Waht happened to this “klal”?
#23, that’s de’Oraisa. De’Rabbonon — we are machmir.
#23, “rabbiofberlin”, are you sure you’re a rabbi? You sound more like an am ho’oretz. Sofek mamzer is mutar mid’oraisa, but it is ossur mid’rabonon. How do you not know this?
To akuperma:
This is talking in Israel where all divorce is with a kosher get through the rabbanut. There in Israel the issue of gittin is not an issue, only the issue of cheating would be.