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A relative of mine who has a (somewhat tenuous) connection to the Kushner family (yes, that Kushner family) told an interesting scoop about Ivanka Trump. Or more accurately, about Ivanka’s mother, Ivana. The supposed story goes that Ivana is really Jewish, but ashamed to publicly admit it. Therefore, this relative told me, Ivanka’s whole geirus was really just a face-saving farce; she was born Jewish.
While I cannot vouch for the validity of this story, it would nicely answer how respected Rabbonim can vouch for her Jewishness despite the fact that she does not seem to lead a lifestyle that would traditionally be considered “kabbalos ohel mitzvos”.
This indicates that you, too, agree that in the absence of her being a born Jew, it is understood that she hasn’t had a true kabbalos ohel mitzvos to have had a valid geyrus.
If another Jew is interested in marrying a gentile woman, can he too have her convert by her accepting the same Jewish type lifestyle as Ivanka, and it be a valid conversion? Or is that option only available to high net worth individuals who can pay the appropriate fees to make that happen?
Once a geyrus is completed, we don’t “monitor” the compliance of the individual with their commitments to be shromrei torah umitzvos (aka “kabbalos ohel mitzvos”). They are a yid in the same way as any other yid born a yid and their behavior in olam hazeh is only accountable to the Ebeshter in olam haboh.
“Once a geyrus is completed…”
It isn’t completed if the kabbalos ohel mitzvos was lacking.
And who makes such a finding on an retroactive basis? Are you aware of cases where the rav who officiated over the geyrus years later “reversed” his decision based on failure to comply???
“And who makes such a finding on an retroactive basis?”
A beis din certainly can. It’s happened to thousands of purported geyrus’ in Eretz Yisroel alone within the past 10 years.
It is 100% true. Rav Hershel Schachter said so.
I was referring to cases where a Rav/beis din decided years after the geyrus of a particular (high profile) individual that the individual was not sufficiently living a torahdika lifestyle to withdraw the geyrus approval? I’m aware of cases where an entire class of geryim was rejected or where Rav A did not “accept” a geyrus approved earlier by Rav B. The case we are dealing with here is not something I’ve seen alleged previously where someone like Rav Lookstein or any other Rav would revoke his own geyrus approval.
At this point, the whole discussion about Ivanka is nothing but Lashon Hara because there is no purpose. She accepted the same restrictions on her behavior that other people who are part of the KJ/Ramaz/Haskell Lookstein/East Side world accept on themselves. Please leave her alone.
A far more relevant discussion is whether the State of Israel should decide to stop accepting the future conversions of anyone who converts in Chutz La’aretz regardless of which Beis din converted them. If you want the State of Israel to accept you, then you ought to be required to meet their standards of “accepting the yoke of Mitzvos”, and you should need to go to the Mikva there. It would create a minimum standard and a registry of who converted and when.
As far as Ivana’s mother goes, apparently she is alive and well and living in the Czech Republic. Here is a cut and paste:
“Ivana Trump was born Ivana Marie Zelnícková on February 20, 1949, in Gottwaldov (now Zlín), Czechoslovakia (now the Czech Republic), the daughter of Marie (née Francová–possibly of the town Francova Lhota) and Miloš Zelníček.”
If you really have nothing better to do, then please track down Marie Francova Zelnick (AKA Ivanka’s mother’s mother) and ask her if her mother was Jewish. She probably remembers her mother’s parents too. I always thought that Marie was the equivalent of Mary. There aren’t many Jewish girls named Mary, but she was born in the 1920’s, so perhaps her parents gave her that name on purpose to hide her Judaism.The source of this rumor is stormfront dot org May 5, 2016. It is based on Zelnick being a Jewish name which IMHO does not even qualify it as a rumor because Zelnick is not a uniquely Jewish name.
“The source of this rumor is stormfront dot org May 5, 2016. It is based on Zelnick being a Jewish name which IMHO does not even qualify it as a rumor because Zelnick is not a uniquely Jewish name.”
Ok, so Ivana is Jewish because maybe her father has a Jewish name? By that logic, her mother is also Jewish because after she got married she also had a last name that might be Jewish? You would think the rumor mongers would do better than this. Unless Marie Francova is Jewish, as TrueBT states, then the whole theory is debunked.
A quick web search reveals that her two brothers did not marry Jewish women- Vanessa Hayden, Donald Jr’s wife is not Jewish, although her father was (family was originally called Hochberg). And the rumors about Lara Yunaska, Eric’s wife, being Jewish seem just as tenuous- they are based on the fact that Jared officiated at their wedding, which made the press jump to the conclusion that it was Jewish wedding and that she is Jewish, which she denies.
Besides, would a beis din go thru the farce of pretending to do a geirus (and a controversial one, at that) and risk its reputation and make a mockery of all geirus as a result? Supposedly just because Ivana doesn’t want anyone to know she is Jewish?Joseph, why are you conducting an Internet war against Ivanka Trump? I am starting to suspect that you are an anti-Orthodox agent whose assignment is to make frum Jews look as bad as possible.
G, if a ger later went OTD he is like any other Jew who fell. That is halacha pesuka. In the Langer case Rav Goren invalidate a geirut that was coerced and where the person continued to eat pork and go to church. Rav Eliashiv resigned from the Rabbinut in protest and today thosewho claim to be his followers are doing reasons known only to themselves.
Mr. Goren purported to invalidate a completely kosher and valid conversion to fulfill his campaign promise to do exactly that. His ideologies today, hypocritically, get bent out of shape saying that it isn’t possible to declare a previously purported conversion invalid when a real beis din found that thousands of Russian purported converts, who were in fact unconverted pork eaters, as having been invalid. They today choose to ignore their Goren precedent. In the Goren case, the true convert was a shomer Torah u’Mitzvos who davened every day from when he become a ger tzedek until he was niftar, unlike the falsities of the Goren supporters claiming he didn’t know kriyas shma or went to church. That’s why Maran HaGaon HaRav Eliyashiv zt’l declared Goren’s farce a travesty and resigned.
Stormfront is a virulently anti semitic website.
Bringing any sort of “proof” from there is ludicrous.
Stormfront is a virulently anti semitic website.
Bringing any sort of “proof” from there is ludicrous.
So mw13 didn’t really hear it from a cousin?
Regarding Stormfront – a website by and for Nazis…. They (and other Anti-Semites) consider almost anyone in power is ((Jewish))) and believe there is a huge plot by Jews to control the world. They bring proof from some Gemaros and mostly falsely cited quotes (or completely made up) to prove their point. Apparently, the mostly secular Jews (many of whom are actually goyim) are knowledgeable enough to know these obscure facts and follow them to shake down the “goyim” for shekels and dominate the world.
1. Most Europeans have Jewish ancestry. Intermarriage and going off the derekh were not invented in the 21st century. It would not be a hiddush if Ivanka (or most Europeans) began life as a safek Jew. This is an argument against using a Shabbos goy (unless they are from an ethnic group with little contact with Jews).
2. If a ger is joining a modern orthodox community, one should assume they will act similar to that community.
Akuperma, please state the source for your argument about a Shabbat goy. Unless a person is descended from a continuous line of women he is not halachically Jewish. The probability of a given individual being so descended is minuscule. We do not take into account such worries. Adultery, whether deliberate or not (husband disappeared and was presumed dead but really wasn’t) were also not invented recently. Even a known mamzer could have moved to another community and lied about his lineage. However, a safek mamzer is kosher except for a shituki or asufi, which are special decrees of Chazal.
But everyone is descended from a continuous line of women.
You clearly know exactly why your post was deleted.
The rules are very clear. Don’t try to pin this on the moderators. – 25
It baffles me why anyone would risk violating the d’oiraisas of lashon hara and “you should love the Ger” concerning Ivanka Trump.
In addition, it is very rare that a Ger or a Baal Tshuva keeps all the mitzvos immediately. It is a lifetime work in progress as we know. We are all Gerim /Baalei Tshuva and we all struggle with our yetzer haras in observing all the laws of the Torah.
Improving our own levels of Torah observance will bring us closer to Hashem and please Hashem ; lashon hara however, will not help anyone.Anti-Semties do not follow halacha in the sense that they dont care of someone’s mother or father is jewish. Someone who has a jewish father is still a jew to them
RY, OK, OK. A continuous line of Jewish women. Would you like to be my editor and proofreader? I am willing to pay you half of what the YWN pays me for posting.
ZD, so what? Even fictional characters from other planets are Jewish to them. After an anti-Nazi story appeared in Action Comics Goebbels ym”s declared that Superman was a Jew. His Kryptonian name certainly sounds Jewish.
Cherrybim
“it is very rare , it is very rare that a Ger … keeps all the mitzvos immediately.”
I’m not sure what you mean by that. IF a Ger says he/she is able to be mekayem all mitzvos except “a kutzo shel yud” that he/she cant accept right away, there is no geirus
Avi
Superman really was a jew. The creators of Superman (Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster) WERE jewish and did give him many jewish qualities.
And dont forget Superman comes from the 1930’s the creators of Superman in those days had many stories related to them fighting fascism
ubiquitin –
You are correct, in fact, part of the long Geiros process is you need to be full fledged fluent and practiced all Mitzvos for a while. Some require you to live among fum Jews in the process…
“Most Europeans have Jewish ancestry” ” This is an argument against using a Shabbos goy”
Asides that I doubt that “most” are as above status (it could be “many” . The very argument is ignoramus as far as Halacha is concerned; “Jewish ancestry” does not render one as a Jew, as in any case there is certainly no majority of ‘Halachik’ Jews i.e. wherein the mother was always a Jew going back all generations.Gaon, If you pay the right convert-creator the requested hefty price, then you can be declared a convert without necessarily agreeing to following all 613.
Rabbosai, enough. This gerus happened via a chashuva beis din, major rabbanim by any standard. V’ahavtem es hager is a very serious mitzvah, Kal vchomer when it comes to motsi she rah.
I am not a posek, but I have spoken with many about these discussions. They are problematic. Stop.
If you say chashuv and rabbonim a bunch of more times, then it’ll actually become so.
The reality is there are many cases where it is later declared that the geirus was never valid in the first place.
Joseph, once again your reality is the Twilight Zone. What is your source for your claim of “many cases “
Joseph, I was referring to the previous comment stating that it’s rare” where a ger keeps all mitzvos in the beginning. However, regarding this particular case, she certainly is observant by her communities standards. And I don’t think any biblical commandments are in question, thus it should be a kosher gerus by all standards. I think she is sincere about her faith, and if anything it is Jared you should question.
Aside from the known episodes of the Russian Jews and some other large “block conversions” which were subsequently invalidated by a Beis Din for clear reasons of fraud and deception, Joseph just creates his own “alternative facts” and rants against those who disagree….. Rabbonim do NOT monitor those who have been megayer and withdraw their geyrus if the gerim go OTD.
LC, there were thousands of purported Russian converts in Israel within the past 10 years that a beis din ruled had been invalid geyrus’. (Due to the simple fact that they in reality had not been kabbalos ohel mitzvos despite their mouthing words that they accept the mitzvos but immediately going to eating treif and violating Shabbos after their mikva dunk.) In most of those cases it was years after the purported geyrus that the beis din declared them invalid.
If a potential convert is planning on joining a Jewish community that fails to fully adhere to all 613 mitzvos, such as some very modern ones where they might eat non-kosher (vegetables, non-meat, etc.) when away from home or dress immodestly or or not fully keep Shabbos (i.e. “half Shabbos”), she cannot join the Jewish people under those conditions where certain mitzvos are ignored or violated since that effectively means she isn’t fully being kabbalos ohel mitzvos, thus rendering the conversion invalid from the get-go.
This point is true even though, obviously, members of that same Jewish community she’s intending to join don’t either fully adhere to the 613, but are nevertheless full-fledged Jews regardless – since they have the advantage of being born Jews.
Rabbonim do NOT monitor those who have been megayer and withdraw their geyrus if the gerim go OTD.
If they did, the ger would never be able to participate in communal Jewish life.
How could you ask a ger to join you for a zimmun — perhaps ten years from now he’ll go off the derech and have his geirus revoked.
Any shtar he signs on? Invalidated years later after the fact (and if the convert is a woman, then it would apply to her children, grandchildren and so on…). Hataras nedarim he might have helped you with? Well, now you’re stuck with your neder again.
How you could count him for a minyan? Perhaps years from now, your minyan will be retroactively nullified.
How could you rely on him to be a witness to your kiddushin, or worse, a get? Can you imagine all the nightmares it would cause if twenty years later a geirus could be revoked and all the gitten on which he served as a witness were invalidated years after the fact?
Or how about if the ger’s daughter married a Kohen? Not only would a revocation of his geirus end his marriage, but also his daughters (and render any grandkids as challalim).
So, yeah, it’s a good thing we don’t monitor geirim after the fact.
The Wolf
“cannot join the Jewish people under those conditions where certain mitzvos are ignored or violated since that effectively means she isn’t fully being kabbalos ohel mitzvos, thus rendering the conversion invalid from the get-go.”
I don’t think this is precisely the halacha. Before recent times converts were just taught about a few mitzvos before completing their gerus. This is spelled out quite clearly in the S’A. So lack of knowledge of how to observe mitzvos can’t invalidate a conversion. Instead, what probably matters is the ger’s intention at the moment of intention — did they intend to accept the yoke of all the mitzvos? If so, they’re a valid ger, and if not, not, regardless of their state of knowledge at the time, and regardless of the details of the later behavior (though that behavior of course provides hints about what their intent may have been). In any case, if they join a more frum community later and have doubts about their intent at the time of gerus to accept the yoke of the mitzvos, then they can do a gerus l’chumrah if their rav thinks it’s necessary.
Gadol, no one at any time ever said here that “Rabbonim monitor those who have been megayer and withdraw their geyrus if the gerim go OTD.” Of course not. If a Ger c”v goes OTD he/she remains a full-fledged Jew forever. The issue here is if the statement accepting kabbalos ohel mitzvos during the conversion process was insincere, then the conversion was never valid and completed in the first place and the person never became a Jew.
As you yourself now conceded and acknowledged as possible in your most recent comment. Except that this principle doesn’t only apply to situations of “block conversions” , such as with the Russians, but rather the principle is true and applicable in any and all conversions, including individual ones, when the person was insincere regarding kabbalos ohel mitzvos.
Regardless of any opinions regarding her ‘kabbalas hamitzvos,’ it is not our position to judge the status of her gairus. Let’s face it: Almost no one on here has any real knowledge of her geirus process, and has little or no knowledge of her personal life. (While it can be argued that it is important, as Jews, for us to understand how a face of the Orthodox Jewish World represents us, it’s possible to do that without passing judgment on the status of her geirus.) It’s not our job to be the judges of her life.
“converts were just taught about a few mitzvos before completing their gerus.”
Right. But they fully accepted and committed to honor and carry out all mitzvos as they became aware of them.
“Instead, what probably matters is the ger’s intention at the moment of intention — did they intend to accept the yoke of all the mitzvos?”
Exactly. So if they’re joining a community that doesn’t adhere to certain mitzvos, with the expectation that she too needn’t adhere to those mitzvos, i.e. eating non-kosher, immodestly, only “half Shabbos”, etc., then her intention at the moment of immersion is to ignore and not keep the mitzvos that her Jewish fiance and the Jewish community she’s intending to join do not keep either. Thus her intentions cause the conversion to not able to be a valid one.
Joseph, does that mean that if the prospective convert is joining a community or engaged to a person who is a hater, says LH and HSR in an mass forum and is motzei dibbat ha’aretz in that forum the conversion is invalid?
Joseph;
“If a potential convert is planning on joining a Jewish community that fails to fully adhere to all 613 mitzvos”..
Whilst, there are issues within that community being fully observant , however, these are NOT absolute Biblical commandments you are referring to .
editedIf the Jewish groom eats in non-kosher restaurants and travels on Shabbos, and she’s converting so she can marry him and intends to also eat in non-kosher restaurants that he took her on dates before she became Jewish, and otherwise like her Jewish groom intends to not observe the same mitzvos he doesn’t, that isn’t a valid kabbalos ohel mitzvos. It is no different than a Conservative conversion. Even if the people she’s relying on call themselves Orthodox.
Are you arguing that if a potential convert relied on Conservative Jews her conversion is valid even though the Rabbis she is relying on are wrong for permitting some of the abovementioned? Or that it is LH/HSR to say a Conservative conversion isn’t valid? Or that to make it valid they just have to call themselves Orthodox instead of calling themselves Conservative?
Most of these posts speak of geirus in general, it is only those insisting that discussing the Kushners is l”h who are actually referencing them. Speaking about the credibility of certain Rabbi’s who have proven themselves non credible (incredible?) is not l”h, though it does appear so to those unaware of the details.
I, too, have wondered if the mods have contacted a halachic authority about these threads.
(Joseph, could you please spell “ohel” differently? It looks like “ohel Sarah” this way.)
Joseph, are you implying that Rabbi Lookstein is Conservative. If so you have shown yourself to be a baal hotzaat shem ra (@mod29, I also object strenuously to your comment) are pasul l’eidut and not Orthodox.
Tell me, do you then support Rav Goren’s cancellation of a gerut in the Langer case?
Joseph….how do you know what restaurants they are ate at before geirus, or after? And how do you know what she did when she converted, as opposed to now? Maybe she covered her hair and ate only at the right places, as she had been mekabel, and then after a while said well no one else in my shul is doing this so why should I?
RY, it was plastered all over the news, with pictures of them seated inside and names of restaurants, of where she and he dined. Both pre-conversion, when she was his girlfriend, and post. Fancy Manhattan restaurants famous for their non-kosher menu where they dated and went together for their birthdays. And this was years before Trump ever ran for President. They were both media celebrities in their own rights for many years (in addition to both of their fathers, for notorious reasons.) The wedding dress, which occurred shortly after the conversion she underwent at the behest of the mother in law who didn’t want a gentile daughter in law and was done for the express purpose of attaining marriage with a Jew (in contravention to prevailing geirus halacha) was immodest as well.
Avi, I’ve addressed all your points earlier. See above where I commented on the Langer/Goren case.
like I said before…totally obsessed
Joseph –
As I stated before, she was mekabel Ol Mitzvos in an Orthodox form and standard, i.e. ALL 613 biblical commandments as far as she is concerned. She might be ignorant in some aspects or even lenient , but the kabala was a fully conversion. We have no proof they ever ate non-kosher (being in a non-kosher restaurant is not “eating”) or nor was there any traveling on Shabbos prior to Gerus by Kushner. As far as Geros is concerned, we go according to when the process and Kabala was done.
Why are you comparing it to Conservative or Reform?? She certainly keeps much more than any reform Rabbi. The traveling was a “Heter” per se and was done through a Goy, though you may doubt the Heter, but it certainly does not render the Geros as retroactively invalid.
You are really going out of your way to try to invalidate them…
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