Prime Minister Netanyahu announced this week that a committee is being formed with representatives from coalition parties to draft the new law which will replace the Tal Law. While the committee is expected to include MKs from all the coalition members, it appears that Yahadut HaTorah is not planning to cooperate or accept a place on the committee.
Both Deputy Minister of Health (Agudas Yisrael) Avraham Litzman and MK (Degel HaTorah) Moshe Gafne, comprising the factions of Yahadut HaTorah, have announced they do not plan to sit in on the committee or send representatives.
The committee will be headed by Kadima as was stipulated in the coalition agreement when the party entered the government. MK Yonatan Plesner will serve as the committee chair. Some of the other members will include Prof. Yedidya Stern, Prof, Yafeh Zilbershatz (Bar Ilan University) and Major-General Avi Zamir (former IDF chief of personnel). One of the formulas that seems to be gaining popularity is that 1/3 of the chareidim will be permitted to remain in yeshivos, 1/3 in the IDF and the remaining 1/3 in national service.
The Yahadut HaTorah leaders explain they cannot be part of a committee which is formed exclusively for taking talmidim out of a beis medrash. Gafne and Litzman explain this contradicts their ideology and therefore, they are not taking part. Alternatively some feel their absence will result in a harsher reality for they are the voices of the chareidi tzibur.
Shas also announced it would be boycotting the committee, with party leader Deputy Prime Minister Eli Yishai announcing “Shas will find its own solution to the problem”.
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
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18 Responses
They would be better to sit and demand that learning Torah be considered “national service”, as well as that the army agree to conduct itself in a way so that frum Jews would join without being subject to segregation and discrimiation. Given that the powers that be seem to have already decided on their anti-Torah course of action, joining such a committee would be like sending a representative to the Wannsee conference. However if the zionists decide to go through with their plan, it would mean the end of Medinat Yisrael, so attempting to talk them out of it might be worth a try, no matter how futile. A generation from now, when Jeruslem is the capital of the Islamic Republic of Palestine, we’ll “kick ourselves” for not having tried (though we’ll be in Jerusalem “kicking ourselves” whereas the zionist will be in Europe and America.
How long has Shas been around? After all these years, suddenly they will find a solution? If the chareidi parties don’t join the committee, then they lose their chance to have a say in the final results.
I do not believe the army really wants those who do not wish to serve. the real issue is how the israeli economy will continue to grow if such a disproportionate number of people subsist on government aid. The real solution is to restrict subsidies like in any field to the very qualified, curtail any funding to schools who do not teach the core curriculum, and work as the IDF/government has to integrate chareidim already damaged by their lack of education as productive members of society by training them for various umanot. fortunately, in a high-tech society, that requires only logic, mathematics and engineering and reasonable social skills.
I believe the Gedolim of the First Knesset era strongly felt that we have to vote and participate in the Knesset for precisely the same reason; it is better to fight from within. Obviously the Neturei Karta (as well as most Yerushalaimeh Yidden) felt otherwise. And for that reason, even though most do not actively support Neturei Karta, they nevertheless do not vote in national elections (as opposed to Municipal elections).
In an over-simplification, the difference of opinion is whether an anti-Torah vote is somehow a reflection of ALL the Knesset members including the opposition (who by simply being members are giving their stamp of approval to all of the Knesset’s activitities), or whether each member stands on his/her principles.
Perhaps one can liken it to a ‘Bais Din’ of 5, where 3 Dayanim paskin 1 way and the remaining 2 strongly feel otherwise. The final p’sak is of the majority in Bais Din and the Dayanim are not permitted afterwoods to say who said what.
What has changed in the above ‘committee’ scenario? Shouldn’t the same reasoning apply here as well?
Akuperma, if there is no state of Israel(c^v, unless Moshiach comes), who will support all those people in kollel?!? Plus, what about the security situation?!?
Please add ‘l’havdil’ in paragraph #3.
I think the chareidim in Israel have a very good opportunity to revise the tal law that will allow chareidim to enter the work force without going to the army that will encourage the charidim to work and they should create educational programs that train the chareidm to become professionals to enable them to earn a respectable livelihood
Very good strategy. By sitting on the committee, they would legitimize its anti-chareidi decisions.
By refusing to sit, they make it clear that any declarations by this committee are illegitimate.
most of us who are readers of this website realize the current situation is untenable
we all want the best and the brightest to continue learning
We however want the majority to combine work and learning and to be productive citizens of the country they live in.
Kudos and in agreement as most are with #9
#9 we all agree with u 100%
deepthinker writes: ‘By refusing to sit, they make it clear that any declarations by this committee are illegitimate.’
Illegitimate means not authorized by the law. If the Knesset passes a law, even if it’s not agreeable to the Charedi segment of the population, such a law becomes legitimate and those who ignore or fight it become illegitimate. deepthinker, you’ve got to think a touch deeper.
The Charedim should have anticipated that their special status will not be tolarated for ever and come up with solutions that are both in the spirit of our Torah and appear more equitable to the rest of the population. By procrastinating, they allowed the issue to be hijacked by the Baraks, the Liebermans, and the Lapids of the world who are soneh Torah and Mitzvos.
Any suggestions for how to convince the hiloni elites who run Israel not to cause the yishuv to self-destruct? As we’ve it very clear before (to the Romans, the Spanish, the Russians, etc.), us giving up Torah and Mitsvos is not on the agenda. If they insist on breaking up the yeshivos as part of an effort to destroy yiddishkeit, we have no choice but to oppose them, even though it should be obvious from Jewish history that the result will be the destruction of the yishuv as we know it.
So what do you plan to tell Netanyahu and Barak and Mofaz?
“us giving up Torah and Mitsvos is not on the agenda”.
You are officially invited to leave the Spanish Inquisition and join the 21st Century.
#14 (zionflag):
““us giving up Torah and Mitsvos is not on the agenda”.
You are officially invited to leave the Spanish Inquisition and join the 21st Century.”
Precisely my point. Those Jews who in Spain would have become conversos have already become less-than-frum zionists. The Spanish Inquisition (after 1492) only concerned itself with persons who had given up on Torah and Mitsvos. The “hareidim” of the era left. No amount of bribery or coercion would make them give up Torah and Mitsvos (their descendants are what have built up Shas – they might look “modern” but underneath they are from very fanatical stock).
In Israel, and elsewhere (including the USA), the secularists see the marginalization of religion as a sign of progress. In many ways, we are just one front of a worldwide “kulturkampf”. Knowing this is important in putting the secularists’ goals in context. If all they wanted were more soldiers, they could make some moderate changes to the army (ban gloi ariyos while on base, stricter kashrut, etc.) and probably most of the future Baal ha-Batim would enlist. That they don’t do so, proves their interest is not building up the army, but in eradicating Yiddishkeit.
It seems as though most of the posters here don’t know how things work in UTJ and Shas. If they are not participating, that means that one of the gedolim with which UTJ consults (such as Rav Shteinman shlita) as well as Rav Ovadyah Yosef shlita told them not to. That’s #1.
Secondly, to talk about things being legitimate or illegitimate under the law in EY is ludicrous. The Supreme Court here decides what is and is not lawful according to the whims of its judges. Israel has no constitution, yet they declare the Tal Law to be unconstitutional. All Israel has is a few Basic Laws that were passed in the middle of the night without the majority of the Knesset even being there.
Now contrast that with the Status Quo agreement, in which it was agreed – among other things – that full-time learners (this is a BIG mistake I see in virtually EVERY article on this subject, by the way – chareidim per se are NOT exempt)be granted DEFEREMENTS (read, deferments, not exemptions) from army service. The Status Quo agreement was signed between the Founding Fathers of the State of Israel and Agudas Yisroel. Therefore, a position maintaining that full-time learners be granted deferments has a much stronger legal base than saying that the Tal Law is unconstitutional.
But, like I said, the law is besides the point.
Two more points:
I highly object to those who call for chareidim in EY to become “productive members of society.” Even those who do not believe that learning Torah is productive have no clue as to the facts on the ground if they seriously think that chareidim are not productive even on their terms.
Chareidim can be found across the professional spectrum, including law, accounting, business, real estate, IT, computer programming, education and much more. Furthermore, the chevra kadishas throughout the country are manned (and womanned) overwhelmingly by chareidim. And that’s even without going into the major chesed and relief organizations here, which are also founded and run by chareidim and which cater to the entire population.
Beyond that, posters might be interested to know that athletes and media stars are exempt from army service. Does anyone here really believe that they are more productive than those learning full-time?
Lastly, if anyone wants to talk about people “living off subsidies” without contributing(which any chareidi who lives here can tell you is a joke – no one can live off Bituach Leumi), why isn’t the government all in arms about the Arab citizens of this country who are exempt from army service across the board, and whose MK’s have already stated that if there is any change in the law, they plan to simply ignore it – with no reaction from the media or the government?
The Spanish Inquisition (after 1492) only concerned itself with persons who had given up on Torah and Mitsvos.
And before. The Inquisition never concerned itself with non-Xians; its entire mission was to root out heresy within the Xian community. (And to show the Pope that he did not run things, and that they didn’t care about his disapproval.)