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If you did well in school without using any unconventional methods, don’t mind dressing exactly the way the uniform requires, happily speak the jargon, married someone through the traditional system and are happily married, and are raising children the same way*.
*If the reason for not conforming is completely out of your control, you count as conforming.
(Note that the “system” here is a combination of how the community works and how the world works.)
Admittedly, I do not wear white shirts every day.
I’d say I’m a model citizen simply because I wear black tights in the winter and non-black tights in the summer.
Having done so many contortions to fit into this box, I can’t seem to get my hand out to raise it.
Love it!!! Thanks for the laugh!!
I fit perfectly into my own box.
I made my own box and i fit perfectly into it. The dumbest part is that in terms of frumkeit im much more passionate, and happy, and overall a much better person now then when i was trying to be reformed into a proper “poster yid”
Having grown up in a previous era, I do not wear white shirts during the week, nor do I wear a hat.
Besides for cotton pants, I also wear jeans and polo shirts. I am just as frum as all those who conform to this.
And you know what the best part is?? I don’t care what people say. There is no halacha that says one must
wear a white dress shirt all the time, nor black pants, nor a hat. You want to wear a hat for davening, that’s fine;
but to me, when I walk into the supermarket or walmart and see people marching around in hats, I just don’t get it. Especially when its hot outside.What makes you assume that black tights/winter non-black summer are the correct uniform in the system?
BoysWork: You said, “when I walk into the supermarket or walmart and see people marching around in hats, I just don’t get it. Especially when its hot outside.”
Maybe think about this… Sometimes hats stay on someone’s head better than a kippa. Especially for someone who may have thinning hair. Even if it is hot outside, some men may feel more secure that their head is covered because they are wearing a hat. It’s not going to slide off or fall off.
That’s one practical possibility.
Thanks 🙂
In the previous eras as well as the current era, hats were part of men’s uniform.
Some people don’t get why people wear a shirt over their undershirt when it’s hot.
To BoysWork:
I would like to start by complementing your honesty and maturity in not criticizing or ridiculing those who act differently than you, but rather admitting that you “simply don’t get it”. That’s exactly what the issue is here, you just don’t get it. I will try to clarify it in a way which I believe that since your goal is not to ridicule but to understand, you will be willing to hear and understand.
Did you ever walk into a supermarket or Walmart on a hot day and notice a (non undercover)policeman wearing shorts or jeans? Have you ever seen a soldier in the army shedding half his uniform just because he’s hot?
A person who is a member of the Torah community and recognizes the importance of not only complying with the halachos of Torah but also wearing the appropriate ‘uniform’ to keep up his Yeshivalike look will keep wearing the ‘full uniform’ including the hat, (which, from your comment about wearing a hat for Davening, it is clear that you can understand the idea of wearing a hat), even when it is hot.*raises hand tentatively*
According to the teacher in my statistics class, if you perform a survey using a sample population that is biased, your results will be skewed and innacurate. In plain, commonsense english: You’re asking this question to the coffee room! The fact that we’re here *means* we don’t fit in the box!! But to answer your question, yes, I nearly do fit in perfectly with the system. I have no trouble conforming in terms of dress, speech, technology, etc. I was a rule-follower in school. I also enjoy pro soccer and visiting the library, among other things that are perfectly in the box in my sub-sub-sub section of the normative Flatbush community, but not so in many other sections. I think that the main thing is to find the box that is most comfortable for you. There are always going to be societal expectations. Don’t feel pressured by them, because if you ever do something that bucks the trend, you will find a new community of people who did the same thing as you.
“policeman wearing shorts or jeans?”
Iv’e SEEN policemen in shorts. The shorts were part of their official uniform. This is common in many warm climates.
” Have you ever seen a soldier in the army shedding half his uniform just because he’s hot?”
The internet is filled with pictures of marines doing heavy grunt work in just their undershirts.
You dont need a reason to wear something if it identifies you as part of a group that you want to show your association with. I believe Rav Miller Z’l said he would wear a yellow (or was it green) hat if that is what identified him as part of the yeshiva crowd.
lol men.
Right. But he won’t wear a yellow hat or other attire if that attire is not what identifies one as part of the yeshiva crowd.
What do you have against policemen?
Men stop wearing black in the summer?
To all those who responded to me: Who decided what is the appropriate uniform for jewish people? If you say its white shirt, black hat, etc, well, there are countless frum jews who do not conform to that. Does that not make them just as good a jew as you? Secondly, there is no halacha that one must wear a hat all the time. Who decided that this defines a “frum” jew? Going back to the 70s and before, all the heimishe yidden who came out of the war – wore kangol caps during the week. They did not wear Borsalinos. If you see pictures of certain Rabbonim from that era, they **GASP** wore colored shirts (even though the wonderful Art Scroll people decided to photoshop the pics).
My point is that no-one has a right to say that if you don’t wear this garb, then you are not part of the torah community. I guarantee you there are quite a few bigger talmidei chachomim that don’t wear the attire than those that do. Basically, it’s LIVE AND LET LIVE. And please, don’t look down at those who don’t dress like you; I’m sure you have faults too.Which godol hador dressed in color shirts and jeans?
Joseph, I never said jeans. I only said colored shirts. Go find pictures of gedolim from the 50s and 60s and you will see for yourself.
BoysWork, why is wearing jeans any worse than wearing colored shirts?
BoysWork,
Who decided what is the appropriate uniform for jewish people? If you say its white shirt, black hat, etc, well, there are countless frum jews who do not conform to that.
I think this overstates the situation, as does One of the chevra’s response above that likens the white shirt/black hat to a policeman’s uniform. Nobody “decided” that any color clothing or hat type is the appropriate uniform for Jews. The Jewish people has numerous cultural groups, and just as all cultures have unique norms and values, a few of these groups have adopted white shirts, black pants, hat, jacket, etc. as a norm. Trying to make a halachic argument for or against this norm isn’t really apropos. Norms are a very powerful identifier and unifier within a group.
Does that not make them just as good a jew as you?
Unfortunately, as we are all human beings, no group is immune to prejudice and intolerance of those considered “outside” of the group. Trying to unite the various tribes, factions, cultures, of the Jewish people is an ongoing project which started thousands of years ago.
(even though the wonderful Art Scroll people decided to photoshop the pics).
Can you cite an example of this in an Artscroll book? I’d be interested to see it.
So what if I did okay in school (depending on the year, the subject and my mood), didn’t have a uniform (I graduated high school before most Bais Yaakov’s had uniforms), am not married yet but hope to be so one day, do not know yet how I will meet my husband although I prefer non-traditional methods, am not sure what the jargon is (although I have a tendency to throw out words like “chap” and “shkoyach”. does that count?), wear black tights in the winter and black knee-hi’s in the summer?
Does that mean that I am not a model citizen? Does it mean I don’t fit in? Is being a model citizen the same as fitting in? Can I be a model citizen even if I don’t fit in?
<quote>(EVEN THOUGH THE WONDERFUL ART SCROLL PEOPLE DECIDED TO PHOTOSHOP THE PICS).
Can you cite an example of this in an Artscroll book? I’d be interested to see it.
</quote>
I can vouch for this. I don’t work for Artscroll, but I do work in that line of business. And yes, we sadly photoshop women out of their own family pictures, shirt colors, hand holding etc.
This has got to be one of the best posts I’ve read here in a long time.
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