At yesterday’s Globes Israel Business Conference 2007, Zohar Zisapel, the founder & chairman of RAD Data Communications, had the following to say:
“When Ben Gurion made his arrangement with the Chareidim, he saw only a few dozen Yeshiva students. Today, this has developed into a cancerous growth that must be excised so that it does not become even more malignant.”
Zisapel added, “We must revert to the original arrangement, and set a quota of a few dozen outstanding yeshiva students, for whom the Torah is their vocation, which is what the religious world really needs as a reservoir of future rabbis.”
“The current situation is the result of the political activism of the Chareidim.”
(Source: Globes)
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88 Responses
Typical zionist Torah hating.
Flame that all you desire. The facts speak for themselves.
JUST LIKE HITLER, WHO ALSO REFERRED TO THE jEWS AS A VIRULENT GERM THAT MUST BE EXTERMINATED!
THIS KIND OF VIOLENT RHETORIC CAN EASILY FORM THE BASIS OF VIOLENT PHYSICAL ATTACKS ON THE HAREIDI COMMUNITY, CHAS VE’SHOLEM!
WHY WASN’T THIS MAN ARRESTED?
The only comment appropriate is no comment.
If had made this statement about the arab terrorist community this person would have been brought up on charges. Much more tame statements about Israeli left wing politicians has led to criminal investigations. I guess that bashing the Frum is acceptable. Maybe if his stock would plummet he would find Hashem and understand what’s going on.
Poor choice of language and terminology, to be sure, but not so wrong in his general analysis of the situation. There are far too many frum yidden pretending to toil in Torah and using it as an excuse to evade Army service.
I would advocat ehte creation of programs that would allow Chareidim to perform other duties, not militayr/Army related, for those bochurim for whom learning is not a realistic pursuit for whatever reason, that would enable them to become the future ba’al habatim upon whom Torah can rely on for support.
Self hating Jews are our greatest threat. It is scary. We have to keep our guard up and daven a lot that they should not have their plans seen to fruition.
Hashem Yerachem, we should be mispallel for a yid that can talk that way about a ben Torah, even one that learns one hour a day. While a frum person in the army who is helping to guard yidden all over Eretz Yisroel is worthy of our praise Mr. Zisapel needs to understand the difference between a person who devotes his life to Hashem and His Torah and a person who is frum and enlisted in the army.
Racist and DISGUSTING
The Nazis, YM”SH,used to say the same thing. That is where this individual gets his philosophy from.
Comment deleted by request.
-admin.
I for one agree with him. Doesn’t seem like he’s calling anyone a cancer, just the system. I fully agree. How many people do we know who are wasting their time in Yeshiva? Sure, those who are serious about their learning should definitely be able to learn as long as they can, but those who aren’t are just using the system as an excuse, and in my opinion are mechallel shem shomayim. Other Jews are dying in Gaza so that they can waste their time drinking coffee and chewing on assorted plastic cutlery. That is not limud HaTorah, it’s a disgrace. And it’s 1000x worse in Israel than in the US, where being “in yeshiva” means you won’t have to go to the army.
Not only does it add to the hatred from the chiloni camp, who are already looking for any excuse to lash out, but it’s destroying these very bochurim. What is their future? They won’t be able to get a decent job, both because they haven’t served in the army and because they don’t have an education. They’re not the ones who are going to be sitting and learning, so what so they do? There’s only so long you can walk up and down Shmuel HaNavi pretending you’re busy.
This is the kind of guy who will join the fight AGAINST Mashiach when he comes — along with most of the government —
PLEASE–DON’T HATE THE MAN–IT’S JUST VERY SAD THAT HE DOES NOT HAVE ANY UNDERSTANDING OF THE PURPOSE AND POWER OF OUR TORAH!!
#6, Lawman, you totally missed the boat.
NO NEWES FOR ME I ALLWAYS KNEW THIS. BUT WHEN EVER I MADE A REMARK LIKE THIS I WAS WASHED OFF AND CURSED HERE ON YESHIVA WORLED BY SO MANY WRITERS THAT I DONT WANT TO WRITE ANYMORE.
I agree with #5. The “charedi” world (which I am a part of), brought this on themselves.
When this was recognized by Reb A.L. Shteinman who had the courage to say it aloud and recommend the formation of Nachal Charedi so that frum boys could actually serve in the army and then go to work and become productive members of society, he was almost lynched.
I BELIEVE IN YESHIVA, I LEARNT IN YESHIVA MY SONS ARE IN YESHIVA, but I left when I felt that I was not producing and I will make sure my sons leave if they are not learning.
NO one would ever have a (legitimate) taana on the the “Yeshiva World” if 95% of the people in yeshiva were actually learning.
This problem exists in America as well but is much more prevalent in Israel because of the army.
I America it exists primarily because of the Shidduch market. I can not tell you how many times I have heard girls say no to a guy who left Yeshiva at 29 and still learns 3-4 hours a day but goes out with guys in Yeshiva who also learn 3-4 hours a day not realizing how much more learning is valued by the working guy.
BEFORE YOU ALL KILL ME LET ME END BY SAYING WHAT I SAID BEFORE, THE BEST PLACE FOR FRUM BOYS/MEN TO BE IS IN YESHIVA IF THEY ARE LEARNING IF THEY ARE NOT IT CAN BE ONE OF THE WORST PLACES FOR THEM>
Editors Note: Kindly enlighten us all. Please tell us how you know that Rav AL Shteinman said this, and please don’t tell us “you heard this”.
Give us the letter (which was never written).
Thanks, and we are waiting.
why is he suddenly an anti-semite? because he questions the validity of this system we have of everyone in kollel and no one working?? why cant someone advocate the return to some normalcy. maybe his choice of words is unfortunate, but the issue is a fair one.
The Israeli government should just accept the chareidim’s ideological opposition to army service and let them go to work if they want without serving in the army. Then the community would be more self-sufficient.
I hate comparisons of anything to the Nazis YM”SM, as that tends to diminish the image of the holocaust. However, I can see how you feel this way.
However, this is EVEN WORSE in some ways.
Those who say our worst enemies are from within rather than from without are correct. I am sure those Hellenized Jews during the Chashmoinaim time were saying similar things.
Point 1. The non-observant Jews is embarrassed by us Frum Jews, as he wants the goyishe world to see the Jew as “Just like you” while the frum show the world proudly, “We are NOT like you at all.” This infuriates the non observant, and is one of the seeds of their hatred of us.
Point 2. There is another point, that I believe is a small part of it, but not as important as Point 1. This is the issue of conscience. Deep down many non-observant Jews know that we are doing it right, and they are not. But they posture both to themselves as well as to outsiders that we are “fanatics” and dismiss us. But, every time they see us or hear about us, it rubs against them, because they feel this uncomfortable inner feeling that we are the ones doing it right.
Point 3. I can understand why a Zionist person would feel hatred against a Chareidi Jew who refuses to defend the country he lives in. He feels that this Jew is living under the safety of their military, but refusing to do their share. If I were one of them, I would feel the same way.
The fact that many chareidim believe they MAY NOT al pi Halacha participate in a Jewish Military before Moshiach, totally prevents many of us from even doing the smallest clerical job. But it continues to inflame the hatred from the non-chareidi. Both sides are correct from their own point of view.
Or, to make things worse, there are Frum people, well-intended good people, who do not understand our issur, and are also angry why we “can’t just do something light like clerical work, etc.,,”
So, you have 3 groups all inside the Yidden themselves:
The Yidden who believe we are not permitted to do even the SLIGHTEST thing to help the medina.
The Yidden who are frum, but do not uderstand or agree with the above, and
The Yidden who are not frum, and for many of the above reasons hate the frum anyway.
Actually, the goyim do not hate us as much as our own do… OY!
I live in the US, but we have many thousands of us chareidim in Eretz Yisroel who would simply like to live in peace in Eretz Yisroel no matter who or what is the government, but absolutely may not support said government al pi halacha as long as it is Jewish.
The sad, VERY SAD fact is that one solution may be forced on those Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel: THEY MAY NEED TO MOVE, AND EMIGRATE FROM THERE TO ANOTHER COUNTRY TO LIVE IN PEACE AND SAFETY.
The thought of the above is hideously repulsive, but may be the only eventual safe thing for them to do.
Safety from fellow Jews may be more of an issue to them than safety from the goyim.
May we see Moshiach come ASAP …. Pleeeeeze …
Bad way of putting it, but there are many in the frum world that are collapsing under the weight of support responsibilities due to the increase of dependence of children and their children on their parents, for too many years.
Im Ain Torah Ain Kemach, which results in Im Ain Kemach Ain Torah.
Here is the true “Cancer on Israeli society.”–the 400,000 non-Jewish Soviet immigrants, who were imported by the Jewish Agency under Mizrahi leader Avrohom Burg, in order to offset the demographic growth of the hreidi sector.
The Zionists have created a neo_Nazi Frankenstein:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3481423,00.html
Here is the exact quote from the original Y-Net article. It is clear that he thinks Torah learning should be severly restricted, for Rabbis only:
Israeli businessman slams IDF exemptions for haredim
Israeli entrepreneur Zohar Zisapel tells participants at Tel Aviv business conference that the modest arrangement once reached on exemptions must be overturned before “the tumor becomes malignant”
Y-NET–Tani Goldstein Published: 12.10.07, 19:47 / Israel Jewish Scene
“Draft exemptions for full-time yeshiva students have become a cancerous tumor that require us to expunge it without compromise,” said RAD Group founder Zohar Zisapel Monday at the Israeli Business Conference in Tel Aviv.
“In order to prevent this tumor from becoming malignant, we must expunge it without compromising. We can allow a few dozens of students a year (to continue in yeshiva), as in the original agreement, and as the religious world requires to fill its reserves with the rabbis of the future. Also, we need to demand that every school implement the core curriculum- including mathematics and English, not just Gemara and Aramaic.”
As the panel continued, Zisapel expressed his opinion that the government must transfer funds currently marked for yeshivas to support IDF soldiers. His remarks were received with applause by the audience, which included many important members of the Israeli business community, most of whom are secular- with almost no haredim.
Many of you may not like the way he was quoted, but there is certainly validity to his argument that the Yeshiva exemption has spun out of control.
Further, to those of you calling him a Nazi and anti-semite. Would someone deserving of those labels really call for “a quota of a few dozen outstanding yeshiva students,” to provide, “a reservoir of future rabbis.”?
The Yeshiva exemption is much more about politics than it is about creating Gedolei Torah. Many of the irrational comments above prove just that.
hmm, lets see, in our wonderful state of Israel- what are the numbers. The percentile numbers of those who run away from “Israel” with no thoughts of ever returning, after having been forced to serve in the IDF. More than fifty percent!
Thank you. That failed. Let’s choose to give the Bnei Yishmael the land, but primarily destroy others with us. Why not? Zeh Kev
I become very upset when I read comments like DM who admit to standing outside the Zionist/non-chareidi system, but who proclaim in absolute terms that they understand these non-chareidim fully and the underlying motive behind their non-acceptance of what has come to be seen as a chareidi lifestyle and ideology. I would venture to submit that people like DM, instead, know and understand very little.
As well, those who call other Jews “cancerous” as did “Deepthinker” is being as equally blasphemous as possibly Zisapel (had he had the entire chareidi world in mind in his condemnation).
We were all given the land of Israel as a gift from HaShem, and one of the deep lessons for all of us to learn is to elevate our own consciousness to an awareness that in living together we are in continuous relationship to one another. For relationships to be meaningful they have to be contingent upon deep respect for our similarities, but also of our differences.
Lifestyle systems must be examined and analyzed, specifically as it directly affects the general fibre of Israeli society — and those whose lifestyles are possibly under attack or seen to be detrimental should be prepared to argue their positions vigorously — but with respect and courtesy. Never to resort to name calling or the demeaning of individuals or groups. We all have a great deal to learn from one another – lets all of us open up our minds and begin doing so.
Let’s calculate. Yissachar Zevulin Math please.
Let’s say there are 20,000 people sitting in yeshivos around the world over the age of 23. Double that even, 40,000 (a crazy high number given that the Mir and Lakewood combine hardly equal five thousand and they are the biggest centers).
Yissachar-Zevulin equation means 1/13 of Klal Yisrael should be sitting and learning. That means, out of a world-wide Jewish population of over 13.2 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew), we should have over one million jews sitting and learning.
Rabbosai the question is: What can we do to get more people sitting and learning?
(No, I am not in Yeshiva now, so leave your sarcasm at the door please)
YW’s headline really distorted the story, whether you agree or disagree with the man’s point.
…and how about all the non-Torah observant that get exemptions???
Most of the posters are over-reacting. He has a valid point. He says explicitley that there should be some defferments. OK, I wouldn’t go to him to hear daas Torah, but he is probably a decent frei person with some confused hashkafos. More charedim should be working and everyone knows that.
This guy is right.
In the war to conquer eretz yisroel, and the maccabees etc. everyone fought (aside from shevet levi) to say that every single charedi does not have to go to the army by enrolling in yeshiva even if you are not really learning is cancer
virtually all of my rabbiem agreed that if you are not really learning — FIGHT (hopefully it will raise the bar for those who really are moser nefesh to learn) for yeshiva world and its readers to be so closed minded and vain shows why one should be very careful not to get brainwashed by yeshivas B’h I was not but I see my brothers and many others with totally warped brains.
Editors Note: “For Yeshiva world to be so closed minded”…. Where did Yeshivaworld state an opinion here?! Please advise.
well by cutting back programs they have put us on chemo, now giving away Yerusholayim is like trying an amputation
Didn’t Pharoh also tell Moishe about the yidden ‘nirpim ahtem’?
Can anyone here prove with tangible evidence that Israeli society benefits from its support of chareidi insitutions? I understand that many poeple here, myself included, believe that maintaining a cadre of Torah scholars is in klal Yisrael’s best interest; that G-d wants us to do that. I’ll even accept the notion that the reward for it is corporeal and not merely meta-physical. But can it be proven in the modern sense of the term? It can be demonstrated that the current system is a huge drain on the Israeli economy. It can be proven that the burden only grown exponentially with time. It can be proven that the chareidim produce nothing of economic value. It can be proven that they siphon off valuable resources from Israeli Society. There is a colorable argument that neither Ben Gurion, nor the Chazon Ish envisioned the current state of affirs when they worked out the exemptions. Given all that what do we really expect your typical chiloni to think? Moreover, given the contempt and derision for anything insufficiently chareidi that is shown by the chareidim, can anyone really blame chilonim for their antipathy?
With all due respect, #16, I am not “missin g the boat.”
Mr. Zisapel’s choice of terminology is a poor one that he deservedly should be called to task on. But, let us also not stick our heads in the sand either: Far too many people in Israel are claiming they deserve deferments from military service b/c they are learning torah when, in fact, they are not doing so.
My suggestion would be to allow yeshiva bochurim who do not want to sit and learn full time to perform a truncated, or altered, bituach l’eumi in a frum environment in lieu of military duty. In conjunction w/ such service, if these bochurim also learned skills that would enable them to support families and become frum ba’al habatim that recognise and support Torah institutions I fail to see the problem with that.
There was an old man in bedford avenue in williamsburg who understood the zionists better than most people
Many of the commentators are mixing-up different issues:
1. This guy Zisapel does not value Torah at all. All he is willing to tolerate are “a couple of dozen” Rabbis to serve the stupid Hareidim, nuch as they used to do in the old Soviet Union.
All the rest are a “malignancy”–a-la Karl Marx–“Religion is the opiate of the masses.”
2. The IDF in Israel has traditionally been an agency of assimilation into the dominant anti-religious secular culture. As Ben-Gurion called it “Beis Yotzer Ha Oomah.”–not a suitable place for a religious Jew. And I’m not even speaking of the rampant immorality in the gender-mixed army.
3. The resulting idleness among many Hareidim, who are not able to get a decent job is indeed a serious problem, but the solution is not Shmad in the Israeli Army meat grinder.
4. The Chazon Ish is quoted as saying, during the Passover matzo baking on the second year of the establishment of the State of Israel, that he is amazed that Jews are permitted to perform Mitzvas in public, without being arrested.
And some people sit around and wonder why we have a tuition, lifestyle crisis. There is a large faction of “orthodox” Jews who are the breeders of the Welfare state also known as Kollel. Its unbeleivable how on one hand a Rosh Yeshiva will tell a student not to go to college, and on the other hand do anything to get a dime out of the educated professional. Its time to wake up out of this slumber. Wake up people!
and all you yeshiva bochurin calling a fellow jew a nazi really represent G-d the right way. Im sure thats what is expected of you all and what was taught in your yeshiva
You are all missing the point. The problem with Chareidim going to the army is not because they all want to learn. It’s because the army is a VERY dangerous and UNHEALTHY place for a frum boy. The army sends girls in to entertain boys during vacations, and what do you think most of the boys in the army spend their free time doing? Not things that frum boys should be doing. That’s the problem, and that’s the reason why frum people can’t go. Period. So they have to be learning in order not to put themselves into this spiritual danger.
You are all missing the point. The reason that Chareidi boys can’t go to the army is not becaue they all want to be learning, but because it is a terrible place for a frum boy to be! The army sends girls to entertain the boys in their free time and you could just imagine what the average Chayal is spending his free time doing. The army is simply a very unhealthy place (spiritually) for a frum boy. If the frum boys would go there it would be spiritual suicide. That’s the reason they all have to learn in order to get out of going. Because it’s impossible to stay a good frum boy in such an environment! Period.
The war to conquer was al pi navi and the war of the macabim was to uphold the torah not to destroy it.
My Dear mab,
You write “I become very upset when I read comments like DM who admit to standing outside the Zionist/non-chareidi system, but who proclaim in absolute terms that they understand these non-chareidim fully and the underlying motive behind their non-acceptance of what has come to be seen as a chareidi lifestyle and ideology. I would venture to submit that people like DM, instead, know and understand very little.”
You challenge my knowledge of people not holding my opinions. You assume I have no close friends who are on the other side of the issue. You assume I have no dialogue with those on the Zionist/Non Chreidi side.
You are making many incorrect assumptions. Just because I have certain opinions, does NOT mean I am ignorant of others’ opinions. I have MANY friends from all sectors on Judaism. I respect each one for his or her view and do not put them down. These things that I wrote are thoughts conveyed to me by those people, not inventions of an overly fertile mind.
Was anything I wrote said in any disrespectful way? or was I simply trying to show understanding.
I wish the Zionists & Non-Observant Jews would have as much respect and understanding for us as we have for them.
You read not a single hateful word from me in my post.
In fact, you read where I am showing understanding for those who hate me! and for that I am attacked?
I obviously do not intend to say that what I write is everyone’s thoughts. That would be insane, and I am a very sane person. I am merely sharing my thoughts and experiences as I have accumulated them.
Yes, I said that the Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel are validly feeling more and more unsafe from attacks from their fellow Jews.
I did not sat hateful things about those whom they are afraid of. I only indicated that the fear is genuine and has, unfortunately much to base it on.
Please, let us all learn to respect each other.
Yes, I am an “Anti-Zionist” … but I respect each and every one of you, including those who hate us, and I TRY to understand why they hate us, without hating you back.
Make Love, not Hate. We can begin with mutual respect, one Jew for another. You do not need to agree with me for me to love you. You are my brother Jew, and I will love you no matter what you believe.
Please do not expect me to agree with you to love me. I am your brother Jew.
I find it heartening and encouraging that on a site like Yeshiva World there are many who recognize that this man has a point. Of course there are the typical knee-jerk reactions, but that’s to be expected.
ben avrohom, comment #12, how do I get in touch with him? I also need some money!!
MyNachas #28, Very good point. Could not have been better said!
what he doesn’t realize, it that’s what keeps the world going…torah!
There has to be a certain amount of people learning in this world and being that so many of our fellow Jews are not frum, we need as many people learning to make up for it that we can!
there can never be too many.(bench warming is another story)
Unfortunately he used strong language. Also,unfortunately there is a lot of truth in the point he makes. Why are so many “chareidim” SITTING and ‘learning’instead of earning an honest living?Where are our scientists,doctors,teachers,crafstsmen,and other professionals going to come from? From the anti-semites/from the Arabs? WE NEED OUR OWN PEOPLE TO BE B’NEI TORAH AND KNOW HOW TO READ AND WRITE ENGLISH!,TO DO HIGHER MATHEMATICS,TO KNOW HISTORY,SCIENCE,MEDICINE,ETC.! We need wealthy frum business people to support the yeshivos,the true b’nei Torah,and their own families. You can’t depend on welfare forever. You can’t expect others to do your dirty work. Our Frum people are bringing on this kind of hatred on themselves with the arrogance and bad behavior so many exhibit. You can be 100% frum,a ben-Torah,AND be a knowledgable fine person contributing your fair share to society. People ARE fed up with this “aristocracy” looking down on the rest of Klal Yisroel. We need Yissochor AND Zevulun,BOTH,to help each other out. Not everyone is seriously learning.Many are just hiding behind the yeshiva walls to hide from responsibility. Give the youngsters a good well-rounded kosher secular education,with Torah AND middos tovos. He’s got a point,but it’s not being represented properly.
Why is everyone getting so bent out of shape? This is old, standard zionist talk. We have long known that these people can’t stand to see the growth of Torah. These people will not be convinced, so don’t waste your time!
#36
“It can be demonstrated that the current system is a huge drain on the Israeli economy. It can be proven that the burden only grown exponentially with time. It can be proven that the chareidim produce nothing of economic value. It can be proven that they siphon off valuable resources from Israeli Society.”
perhaps the only reason that the State continues to exist today as is not because of the high tech economy and inspite of the zionists. perhaps all of the blessings that come to the economy are directly because of the learning that is happening – even the learning, by some, that is not up to the highest of levels.
lkwdfellow:
Its people like you who most thinking people despise. You sound like the Irianaian hitler in the way you describe out jewish brothers as Zionists. But Im sure you love walking through Yerushalim with the safety that the ‘zionists” provide you and your family. Wake up and think for yourself.
When a Jewish student asked an instructor at West point Military College why he hadn’t analyzed Israel’s six-day war to teach their successful tactics to the students, the instructor replied: “We have nothing to learn from that war. By all conventional thinking, they should have lost. It was a miracle that they weren’t massacred by the combined Arab armies.”–so much for the Idf’s military prowess. It was the power of Torah that won the war.
for those of u who speak in the name of rav a. shteinman- do u know how much he speaks & works tirelessly in support & EXPANSION of KOLLELIM?!
to compare his shita on nachal charedi to the above remarks [of this uneducated jew] is lacking basic understanding….
The bottom line is that the problem we face is not that there are too many bochorim and yungerleit in Yeshiva, but rather that there are not enough Yidden in Yeshivas.
proud kaj: wile you may be right that we need bnai torah in all the capacities that you mentioned,the fact still remains that the purpose of creation was to learn torah. therefore it doesn’ male sense to suggest that that we should be encouraging our youth to be be busy with things which are only a necesary requisite to be able sustain learning torah as opossed to learning itself. as for your complaint that other people are doing the dirty work for kollel people, that is the way for people to have a share in torah if they cannot learn themselves. it is very very sar from being dirty in any way. in fact there is almost nothing as beautiful.
“For starters, how does Frummie know that the army is so terrible that its a ’spiritual suicide, period.?”
Hey Torahis1: The Chazon Ish clearly said “yohrag v’all yavor”.
Be killed before you go to the army.
That’s enough for me.
And yes. I know forst hand how it kills a person;s neshoma. Its a fact.
outraged – I don’t think my comment is pro-Iran. I just feel that the zionsts have always hated the Torah way of life. Sure, we appreciate the security they provide. But, to call us cancerous – that shows what thet feel about Torah Yiddin. And that is unacceptable!
I think for myself, and will not tolerate the way you talk about people you don’t agree with. Cut out your hatred, you’ll be be much happier!!
Haven served in the IDF during 1981-1986 and being Shomer Torah and Mitzvos some of what he said has some truth to it. The fact is the vast majority of those that seek an exemption because of religious reasons are in reality free loaders and a burden on society. Because of this those that really sit down learn and dedicate them salves to Ha-Shem get a bum rap.
It’s sad that we have supposedly frum people commenting on this that have similar views to the hatred of Zohar Zisapel. Realize it or not those frum people that try to fight kollel are equally responsible as Mr. Zisapel. They will have to answer to why they fought the Gedolei Yisroel of the 20-21st century as they founded the Kollel infrastructure ensuring the future of Klal Yisroel at the end of this Golus.
Hey – calm down everyone. Its interesting to see how many raw nerves this has touched.
Its quite amusing too to see how many users have just signed up for the first time in order to post a comment on this article. The similarity of the user name to the theme of the comment usually gives it away.
Relax everyone. Pause for a moment and think back at our nation’s colorful history. There were many who spoke like him. Many used the same rhetoric. Our history is replete with those who devoted all their power to exterminating that ongoing flame that continues to burn.
Where are the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans Turks, Crusaders and all their many cronies today? They are only to be found in History books and in boring museums. Even Nazis are mainly in Court or filling up prisons.
But that invincible Jew – we’re still smiling. Mark Twain wrote: “Everything is mortal – except the Jew.”
So this fellow too, together with his supporters, will soon fade into to annals of history and be completely forgotten. And every Chanuka we’ll continue to dance with that eternal joy of being the proud bearers of the promise “KI LO SISHOCHACH MIPI ZARO”.
dear editor you are a liair poeple quote things to youur favior and you say nothing people say things against yoy stupid way and you say show me where it says that ok
Editors Note: Can anyone kindly explain what this person wants from Yeshivaworld? (BY the way, the comment was edited to take out the profanity used…..)
2 comments, one for each point of view.
1. In my opinion, & it’s not for me to judge anyone’s reasons, I believe all Jews of sound mind & body who are fortunate enough to live in Israel should do army service of some kind. Yes, it’s easy for me to say here in the US, but there are significant, personal reasons why my husband & I could not make Aliyah 30 years ago….it wasn’t for lack of intent.
2. This man’s analogies are totally out of line. I find it reprehensible that he used such language & yes, it does smack of Nazism. That’s a terrible indictment & he probably didn’t mean it the way it came out. At least I hope so!
His point was so badly expressed it’s a great lesson for every one of us…we need to watch how we say things. It’s very hard to take back words, especially when they’re printed. They hang around for ever!
Kol Hakovod to all those brave soldiers who put their lives on the line for our people.
Maybe lakewood maven needs some help with his/her English? I think the post refers to #18 & the reference to Rav Shteinman. But I could be wrong.
Editor,
Perhaps if your headline more appropriately matched what was said, people might have less problems with your site. If you want to be THE source for news on the net, you have to have unbiased headlines. He never stated that Charedim are cancerous growths. Of course, a Lakewood education might not get you the capability to distinguish context, but that is for another post.
Editors Response: Lakewood? What exactly are you referring to?
re: editors note in post 66 — your guess is as good as mine…
“The Israeli government should just accept the chareidim’s ideological opposition to army service and let them go to work if they want without serving in the army”.–If you follow Israeli politics, Shas MK’s said, the frum MK’s will never allow students to work without army, since that will destroy the torah institutions.
“It was a miracle that they weren’t massacred by the combined Arab armies.”–so much for the Idf’s military prowess. It was the power of Torah that won the war”.,, of course it was a miracle, and look who were chosen to be the messengers of that miracle.
The war of the Macabim: We had an army who did not want to fight the war, since they felt it unnecessarily (in light of its extreme danger). Only the Cohaninm, who busied themselves in Yeshiva and the Beis HaMikdash, saw and understood the threat of the Hellenistic lifestyle.
Is the founding of the IDF (i.e. those who admitted back in the day, that want women in the army not for defense purposes, but rather in order to create a certain society- Rabbi Wein) in any way comparable to the Macabim???
“Editors Note: Kindly enlighten us all. Please tell us how you know that Rav AL Shteinman said this, and please don’t tell us “you heard this”.”
Instead of disparaging those that claim that Rav Shteinman has supported Nachal Chareidi, why don’t you look into this yourself. As far as I know, none of the prominent chareidi rabonim that supported Nachal Chareidi was willing to explicitly promote the program, my guess is this is because they would prefer that most bachurim/yungerleit remain in yeshivah. However, the program was supported by many rabbonim. It was initialy established by a number of chareidi rabonim (with the IDF’s help of course). These rabbonim included followers of various chareidim gedolim, both chasidish and litvish and each one consulted with their gadol before they agreed to take part of this program. Among the names I’ve heard, admittedly second hand, are R’ Shteinman, R’ Elyashiv and the Gerer Rebbe. However, I cannot vouch that this information is accurate and I don’t think you should take my or anyone elses word for this. I suggest you contact some of the rabbonim involved with Nachal Haredi and ask them directly. Their contact information is:
Nahal Haredi – Amutat Netzah Yehuda
POB 3993
Jerusalem, Israel 91039
Tel: 02-653-6043
Fax: 02-651-2578
Email: [email protected]
Kindly report back to us with the results of you inquiry.
Editors Note: We do not have to contact them. You are the one making the statement. Please back it up. We know the answer……
YW Editor: I think what #66 means is that, as usual, whenever it suits your agenda and sensitivities, you post inflammatory yellow-journalistic headlines, and the truth is of course, not quite as you post it.
This Jew in the Globes article clearly said that the POLICY is “cancerous”, not the people. In other words, as Yeshiva student exemptions proliferate, the problem of increasing exemption numbers worsens. He has no stated problem with Yeshiva Students, only, rather, with the policy that they all be exempt from serving in the army. It seems to me that you were motzi shem rah on Mr. Zisaple with your ill-chosen words.
As others have pointed out, Globes used a different, more precise headline than you did, and you would be well-served, IMHO, to choose your words carefully. Surely you don’t need anyone to tell you HaChaim ViHaMaves BiYad HaLashon; surely, then, you must be careful with how you write your headlines, in particular, or even editorialize in general.
I have yet to see a single correction from you and, frankly, I doubt you will post a correction, here, either. But I do feel you are wrong and are shirking your responsibility to your sizable readership by not, at the very least, correcting your mistakes when they are pointed out to you.
#74 is absolutely correct about the original article in question.
All of you who condemn Zohar Zisapel are guilty of pure sinat hinam and motzei shem ra. How many of you have even heard his name before? How many of you know anything about him?
In fact, he has built two batei knesset for his employees, bought Sifrei Torah to enable his employees to conduct daily minyanim, and has made significant donations of computers to Torah institutions for underpriviledged youth.
He, more than anyone else, is responsible for Israel’s hi-tech boom (he’s often called “Israel’s Bill Gates”), which now provides jobs for one in every ten Israelis.
On numerous other occasions he has told Israeli newspapers that the country’s hi-tech industry needs haredi yeshiva students precisely because their skill at learning Gemara suits them for work as software engineers and testers, which Israel cannot produce enough of. He has initiated at his own expense programs for re-training haredim for the hi-tech sector, and his extensive contacts with haredim have convinced him that the vast majority of unemployed Israeli haredim are ready and willing to become gainfully employed, but are prevented from doing so due to the threat of ostracism from their rabbis, who prefer poverty over productivity.
Shame on all of you who insult the name and good intentions of a fellow Jew who may have done more than all of you together for Am Yisrael.
There is such a small subtle difference between whether the “policy” is cancerous or the “people” that to critique Y W for its headline is ridiculous. Let’s dan l’kaf zechut our friends more than an open enemy of Torah
to #75
Perhaps the Editor & posters missed something in the report; I don’t know, I can’t speak for them. However, Sinas Chinam & motzi shem ra are the norm on all thse sites. It’s amazing that many posters who complain IN THIS CASE & IN OTHER CASES are guilty of the same things when it comes to discussing groups or individuals who have different philosophies or practices.
So the issue here & everywhere is really hypocrisy & the need for respect & tolerance. ACROSS THE BOARD!!!
You may well be 100% right on this issue. But other people may be 100% right on their points of view on this or other issues. In all honesty, ask yourself if you’re guilty of the same attitude at times on other situations.
You don’t have to answer this…I’m sure it will stir up yet more anger & “hate” & I don’t want that. That’s not the intention here. It’s for each one of us to look into our hearts & try to disagree civily, with respect for our fellow Jews.
To Zouzoulia:
You’re right. He was probably just copying the rhetoric that Ben Gurion used whenn referring to the Irgun and Menachem Begin: “We must vomit them from our midst!”
Zozoulia,
The Gemara teaches that an apikorus is one who says “mai ahani lan rabbanaan” — who needs the Rabbis — even he he is punctillious is his mitzvah observance and Torah study.
We don’t need Bnei Torah so that they can work in hi-tech (although there’s certainly nothing wrong with them going into that when they leave Yeshivah). We need Bnei Torah because that’s the purpose of the world.
One who disparages the study of Torah … well, I’ll leave it to the gemara.
In response again to some of the anti-kollel crowd: I once heard a great way to decipher a person’s intentions. Someone with an extreme approach to “shalom” tries to find good in everyone and may mistakenly try to stick up for reprehensible people/comments. Someone with an antaganostic attitude may mistakenly come against even good people and their work. The way to determine that someone is anti-torah is to see if they stick up for those that are against the Torah but they are antagonistic to those that support the Torah. That shows that they are not driven by the above cases of misguided middos but rather they are explicitly anti-torah. Enough said.
I condemn the rude and insensitive language used by Zisapel. He should have gotten his point across in a respectful manner so that it would not engender such a passionate negative response.
By the same token there is gross insensitivity on the part of the Chareidi community that is quick to cirticize and does not show “hakoras hatov” to the non-charedi community who sacrifice their lives for them. Would you like to be going on an operation in Gaza? If the Chareidim would show hakoras hatov, then the perception of Yeshivalite (even those who may not belong learning in Yeshiva) as not contributing their fair share to society would change.
re would be a better opportunity for reciprocation.
36
“It can be demonstrated that the current system is a huge drain on the Israeli economy. It can be proven that the burden only grown exponentially with time. It can be proven that the chareidim produce nothing of economic value. It can be proven that they siphon off valuable resources from Israeli Society.”
perhaps the only reason that the State continues to exist today as is not because of the high tech economy and inspite of the zionists. perhaps all of the blessings that come to the economy are directly because of the learning that is happening – even the learning, by some, that is not up to the highest of levels.
Comment by mdlevine — December 11, 2007 @ 4:15 pm
You might be right, but can you prove it? Ein l’dayan elah mah sheinav ro’ot. Chilonim too know only what they see.
Art – you don’t post as much as you should
—
of course this is coming from somebody who probably posts too much. 🙂
To number 82 (cantorsq): That is something that mdlevine understands from the Torah and our traditions. The entire world only exists due people learning Torah. Vyedata Hayom vhashevosu el levovecha – yes we know things that even our eyes do not see.
Feif Un,
That really sounds nice on paper but I think that we as a society can very well afford to have even double the number of Kollel members then we currently have. It’s just a matter of what your priorities are. BTW I am not in Kollel.
Zozoulia (75),
everything you say about this man does not mean he is not anti-torah. The fact that he thinks that the value of yeshivas is that they create analaytical thinkers who will be good in the high tech field, and that he can save bnei hayeshiva from the dark ages and backwardness of a kollel life by training them for high tech jobs does not make him a tzadik. It means that he has the philosophy that art mentioned above (#79) – that mai ahanei lan rabanan.
If he had offered to help those who were leaving yeshiva anyway to get into jobs that pay well, without knocking those who choose to stay in yeshiva that would be a completely different story.
The proof of his feelings about kollel is that he thinks a few dozen, not a few thousand or even a few hundred, people should stay in kollel. That’s out of a population of millions!! That truly sounds like the token rabbanim that the soviets allowed so they can show their kosher chazer feet.
BTW, Moshiach must be coming soon now that torahis1 is strongly defending kollelim and bnei yeshiva!!! Welcome home, torahis1!!! 😉
Feif,
Where does the Israeli government obtain its money from? I assume it’s from taxes and good old uncle Sam. It would only seem fair that the tax money coming from Torah Jews should be utilized for their interests.
#37, Lawman, Thanks for clarifying.
#43, Frummie, very well said!
#91- Very valid point.
However, i understand you see my point about the tax money though.
Feif,
As long as it’s not earmarked for Torah, right. Anything else is okay.
74, 75, 77
I think you should study Chofetz Chaim on Lashon Hara. He states quite clearly that there is no issur on lashon hara on a person who is not considered “ameisecha”- as part of your nation. A person like this is not shomer torah u’mitzvos willfully so is not considered as ameisecha. (no he is not a tinok s’nishba) I am not authorized to say this on my own, but the Chofetz Chaim says it straight out. Please feel free to look it up. (Chofetz Chaim hilchos lashon hara klal 4:7.) He also mentions it sporadically throughout the sefer.
DM, I don’t know if you will still be logging on to this site, but I only now read your response to my comments and I felt that I could not let it stand.
If,indeed, you have many acquaintances who are not frum, or even “chas ve’chalila” Zionists, and have really spoken to them with an open mind, you would not necessarily jump to the simple conclusions that you appear to have done. I’d like to deal with your original points and in this way clarify to you where I was coming from with my criticism of your position. You will note that at no time did I resort to name calling, etc. but responded in a civil manner to what you eloquently presented as being your position.
Point #1: Although there may be some non frum Jews who may be embarrassed by frum Jews, from my experience, most are simply ignorant and do not understand our lifestyle or commitment. When they aren’t ignoring us outright, they often turn to frum Jews as representative of ethics and morality, and often, unfortunately, find neither, but rather power struggles of a different sort, as well as deep intolerance, etc. (I can elaborate further, but you get my drift).
Point #2: This issue of “conscience” is not as prevalent as you or the chareidi world would like to believe it is. Most people I speak to do not feel that we are “doing it right” at all. e.g. They do not recognize educational institutions that demean secular education “as doing it right”. As well, they have major issues with what they perceive as the inferior status of women. Nor do they believe, “beshita”, in absolute segregation from the general society at large. Note, this does not mean that they feel that we must “become like them”, its just a general chareidi attitude that they sense that sees itself as being superior to everybody else on this earth, and as a consequence they see chareidim as being essentially uninterested in the welfare of others (if it doesn’t affect their own well-being).
Point #3: The matter of Jews living off the Land of Israel, and not feeling any achrayus to defend it in any way, and using a particular interpretation of “halacha” to defend their position is, indeed, a tremendous bone of contention amongst all Jews whether frum or not, who are living in Israel, as you yourself pointed out. Add to that a society that “appears” to discourage the men from working and contributing taxes, etc. and you can well understand the sense of anger and frustration.
Also, it’s one thing to be against participation in the army, it’s another to be against the “medinah” itself and to use halachah to justify not lifting a finger to help the government or its citizens in any way — yet have no problem making use of the infrastructure, health care, garbage collection, expect the “Medinah” to support your institutions, etc. (Mr. Friedman of Ahmadanijab fame is a perfect example of this attitude taken to extremes).
And, lastly, we don’t only have 3 groups “inside the yidden” — the 3rd group can be expanded to a large degree. Not all non-frum Jews “hate” the frum — for the most part, they simply do not understand us or do they have an understanding of Torah the way Chazal interprets it. None of this has been explained to them in any meaningful way.
Its easy to categorize groups as “unacceptable” and to view others in simplistic terms. The charedi olam doesn’t like it when it is done to us — let us refrain from doing it to others.