For the suspects in custody for assaulting a chareidi soldier in Beit Shemesh things are more complicated than they first believed. It appears in this case, the soldier was not a soldier but an Israel Police undercover detective disguised as a soldier. Two detectives walked through the frum area in IDF uniform and were attacked.
The suspected are being arraigned and will face criminal charges for their actions.
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
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13 Responses
good to see that the police are doing something to protect religious soldiers.
There is no justification for the assault. It is one thing to rebuke someone and a completely different action to assault him.
LOL! Serves them right!
Police dressed up as hareidim (the article did not say they were hareidi policeman) acting in a non-hareidi manner in the hope of getting attacked so they can make arrests. Sounds like a classic example of entrappment by means of an “Agent provocateur” – in the US the case would be thrown out of the courts.
akuperma, I can instigate you till I’m blue in the face, you cant attack me in return.
These attackers are not well people and need our tefillos and perhaps a little “time-out’ in jail to realign their Ahavas Yisroel.
They will leave their wive’s and kids at home while in jail and it is their own fault.
@akuperma – no. In the US the attackers would have been shot a long time ago.
For some reason we think that it’s acceptable to attack other yidden for not having the same hashkofa as we do and for some reason these yidden just take it in their stride.
If this nonsense continues someone will end up full of holes and the soldier or policeppppman who pulled the trigger will be fully within his rights according to halocha.
Rav Elyashiv paskened that a machalel shabbos has the right in halocha to drive over a protestor if the protestor is preventing him from being mechalel shabbos.
You can be a kanoi, but you have a din of rodef and the person you fight with has the halachik right to kill you so that they can continue doing whatever aveyra they were trying to do.
Akuperma-
Dozens of aspiring muslim terrorists have gone to jail in the US as a result of sting operations.
The time has come to discard the misnomer of ultra orthodox or super frum and call these thugs out for what they are:
A complete deviance and perversion of Judaism.
Stop defending them and start standing up for what is right and just in the eyes of God!
THIS IS NOT MY JUDAISM!!!
thabo – that is a very bold halachic statement you have quoted allegedly from R’ Elyashiv. I have a hard time believing that it could be true. Yes, it is off topic, but do you have a source for that (not merely some other posters on some other message board?)
I cannot understand how a person blocking anyone on a road, even on a weekday, could possibly be considered a Rodeph to allow the driver to ‘drive over him’. Adding keywords like ‘kanoi’, ‘aveyra’, and ‘din’ do not change the basic facts. No, you cannot kill someone just to allow yourself to continue doing an avaira.
Consider the recent cases of the people who go around protesting at funerals, and saying vile things while basically daring the people to attack them. If a police dressed up and pretended to be such a protester, and went to a funeral saying such vile things (typically to the effect that the person being buried got what they deserve and that their death was divine punishment) and a bystander attacked the fake protester, it would be considered entrappment.
Consider what happens if a policeman walks around Boro Park dressed a Muslim, yelling “Kills the Jews” – and when someone touches him he pulls out a badge and arrest you for assault? Consider undercover police trying to sell contraband, being a “pushy” salesman, and then arresting the customer?
Whether it is correct or not, to support or oppose, the Israeli army and the Zionist movement is a separate issue from whether it is appropriate for the police to go around encouraging and provoking criminal acts in order to arrest people from crimes that might not have occured otherwise.
akuperma – are you seriously comparing someone dressed up as a muslim in Boro Park yelling “Kill the Jews” to someone as an israeli soldier walking the streets of Israel? TA soldier walking in Israel is encouraging or provoking violence? That’s called – undercover, not provoking. I know we live in an upside down world, but that’s a bit much
I think it’s only fair that the police do the same thing in Arab neighborhoods and arrest the Arabs that attack the police undercover “soldier” .
docelisheva – stop making excuses. Just because they dont do it in Arab neighborhoods where the violence against them could be life threatening, does not justify the behavior of Jews attacking, yelling or throwing things at Israeli soldiers
@yitzyk – there is a din of habo’el aramis kano’im pogim bo.
We see that by pinchas, and even so chazal tell us that zimri could have turned around and killed pinchas.
Zimri could have just stopped doing the aveyra and pinchas would not have been allowed to touch him.
Rav Elyashiv explained that it’s zimri’s issue if he wants to do the aveyra, and if he wants to continue but pinchas is threatening him he has the right to kill pinchas – he does not have to stop doing what he is doing and the din of b’echod mey’evoeov does not apply.
Rav Elyashiv explained that the choyte does not have to stop performing his aveyra in order to get the kanoi to stop threatening him.
If he wants to continue that’s his business and the kanoi has a din of a rodef.
Granted, the choyte will still be responsible for his aveyra, but not for killing the kanoi.
Being mechalel shabbos or even comiting avoda zora or being in the “shmad” army are not subject to kano’im pogim bo.
Someone who is attacked by a thug, whether he looks like a chareidi or not has the right to defend themselves no matter what they are doing or why they were attacked.
They may be chayav missah bi’dey shomayim or bi’dey odom but you can not attack them, and if you do you have to be prepared to suffer the consequences – and that may include being killed.
a bunch of hooligans verbally abusing or beating soldiers in the street does not make you a kanoi, no matter how you dress.
Pinchas knew he was taking his life in his own hands – zimri could kill him and if zimri stopped doing the aveyra and he still killed zimri he would be chayav missah for murder.
Chazal tell us that because pinchas was a true kanoi he was zoche to a nes and got it right.
You, Mr kuperma, some of the other posters on this forum and a bunch of my neighbors might be true kanoim too – only HKB”H knows, but either way, if you are going to go out there and take the law into your own hands you have to be willing to take the consequences, and to realize that halocha is fully on the side of those you stand against – even if what they are doing is itself against halocha