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One should note that the original objection pertained to “grains” (things that could be ground to make a flour which could be used to bake bread). There have been arguments that “rice” should be prohibited for this reason. Many object to American corn (maize) which was the most common grain for bread making in the Americas before 1492. Quinoa was used for bread making in the Andes region. While one Beis Din “tested” quinoa and decided it was capable of being made into bread, there are plenty of recipes on the internet suggesting otherwise.
Many Ashkenazim object to the “humrah” against using corn. If you get rid of that, one can easily make bread, pizza, etc. for Pesach. Many commercial products would be practical since the presence of corn (in many forms) is why they can’t easily be made “kosher-le-pesach.” If it becomes settled that quinoa (the Andean grain) is acceptable, where is the logic in object to corn (the more common grain in pre-Columbian America). Neither are the same family as wheat or oats. Both can and are used for bread. Allow corn, and not all that much will be banned and Pesach will involve “normal” eating except for having matza and and avoid bread made from wheat and oats.
akuperma
A few points
“If you get rid of that, one can easily make bread, pizza, etc. for Pesach.”Nu? there is nothing wrong with making bread or pizza on Pesach. There is something wrong with having Chametz. We just read about all the different styles of Korbon Mincha brought, including a variety of breads none of which wer chametz, LEchem hapanim arent chametz, etc etc
“where is the logic in object to corn”
As explained on the other thread. IT isnt based on logic. Minhagim are based on mesora. where is the logic to ban corn/rice if cooked within 18 minutes (we eat wheat which can become chametz when baked withing 18 minutes). IF the concern is the appearance why not ban matzah meal?“Allow corn, and not all that much will be banned…”
that isnt a bad thing per se. And many Sefardim do that, Chazal did that as well. I dotn know if they Pizza (they had bread obviously though not chametz) and their Pesach wasnt/isnt less special than ours.
however our minhag is not to allow corn, so we dont. We dont have a minhag regarding Quinoa so there is no reason to start one.Potatoes can also be turned into bread
Just like there is corn bread, there is potato bread.
What is the differnce between corn and Potatoes?
Akuperma- I’m not sure if you are arguing for or against expanding the definition of kitniyos. Is it a bad thing or good thing to be able to prepare foods that we enjoy on Pesach in a chameitz free manner?
What is the differnce between corn and Potatoes?
Remind me never to send you shopping for me.
Also, potato bread has wheat flour in it and is chometz gamur. The corn bread involved in the issur of kitniyos was not chometz.
Rav Moshe allowed peanuts as it was not known in medieval Europe ((Iggrot Moshe, OC 3:63). Many also allow soya for this reason. So why not corn? BTW, many, including Rav Kook are lenient about kitniyot oil.
If you google “רב ליאור קטניות” you will see some good leniencies. Don;’t forget, it is a minhag not even a d’rabbanan. In fact, some Rishonim thought that it is a foolish minhag and opposed it.
שערי תשובה
ועיין בלקוטי מהרי״ל אחר שהביא המנהג הלז כתב האוכלם בפסח עובר בלאו דלא תסור וכד העובר על
דברי חכמים חייב מיתה כו׳ ע״ש ובמקום אחד עמדו קצת מהחכמים שרצו לפרוץ בזה ולא עלתה בידם
לפי שחכמי הדור מגדולי אשכנז חרדו לקראתם ועמדו בפרץ וקיימו דברי חכמים והחליטו האיסור
במדינות אלוDon;’t forget, it is a minhag not even a d’rabbanan. In fact, some Rishonim thought that it is a foolish minhag and opposed it.
See above. Once the minhag was accepted, it has the force of halachah.
Coffee and Chocolate grow in trees, they do not grow anything close to a legume
While many IMO seem to dislike this minhag and they are wrong, It should be kept. However what exactly is Kinyot is not universally accepted
Rav Moshe felt Peanuts were not Kitniyot (Movement is towards Peanuts being Kitniyot)
The OU doesnt think Quinoa is Kiniyot (Movement is against Quinoa being Kitniyot
“Potatoes can also be turned into bread”
Every year it has been explained to you that Potato Bread is made with wheat flour. That is still regular chometz, you cannot say that it is muttar.
“Participant Coffee and Chocolate grow in trees, they do not grow anything close to a legume”
Your fantasy that legume is what defines something as kitniyos has been conclusively disproven more than once, why you keep harping that legume is the definition of kitniyos might be baffling to some.
(I am NOT saying that coffee or Chocolate are kitniyos, but your reason is not the reason)
“Rav Moshe felt Peanuts were not Kitniyot (Movement is towards Peanuts being Kitniyot)”
ZD, and specifically ZD, can you tell us where Rav Moshe said this?
Potato Bread Recipe (I am not commenting on the kashruth of any of the items in this list) I just cut and pasted it
1 medium russet potato, baked and/or previously mashed
2 packets red star quick yeast (GF) (around 14 grams)
3 tbsp of some form of sugar to activate yeast (coconut sugar or honey both work)
3/4 cup warm almond milk (or milk of choice)
2 eggs, 1 egg white
3 2/3 cup almond flour (see notes for other flour options)
3/4 cup tapioca flour
1 tsp garlic salt or sea salt
dried seasoning of choice or optional chive or basil herbs mixed in 1 -2 tsp dried
1 tbsp apple cider vinegar or white vinegar
1/4 cup olive oil
3/4 cup chopped onion or green onion (scallions)
optional parmesan to topInstructions
Before you begin, make sure you have a baked potato or mashed potato on hand. You want it already cooked and with skin on.
Preheat oven to 350F.
Grease or line a 9×5 bread pan with parchment paper (see notes for bread machine).
First sift/combine your flours in a large bowl (almond flour, tapioca flour, salt, garlic, and dried herbs)
Make sure they are all sifted nicely together or not clumpy. Set aside.
Place the yeast, coconut sugar, and warm milk to another mixing bowl. Mix all together and let it sit for 5 minutes to activate the yeast.
Next Whisk your egg and egg white together in a small bowl. Add in your vinegar and oil, whisk again.
Pour this egg/oil mixture into the same bowl as your yeast and milk.
After that, mix in your dry flours/herbs mixture with the wet mix. I used my table top mixture to then mix quickly all together. If you don’t have a stand mixer, use a beater or stir thoroughly. Then add in your mashed potato and mix again until smooth.
Fold in your onions.
Keep the dough in the bowl and cover it with warm cloth. Set it aside and let it rise for 60-70 minutes. Longer if you did not use quick rise yeast.
Pour batter into greased loaf pan. Add any extra herbs or chopped onion on top.
Optional Sprinkle grated parmesan on top before baking, or half way through baking.
Baked for 45- 50 minutes. The top with turn golden brown.
Remove from oven and let cool completely.
Remove from pan then slice and serve. It toasts up nicely and is great with butter or chili!
Store if fridge to keep fresh or freeze for up to 3 months.“If you google “רב ליאור קטניות” you will see some good leniencies.”
There is something very wrong with Googling for kulos (or chumras for that matter, but I do not believe that the occurrence of such is anywhere in the realm of Googling for kulos).
As far as I know, Google never got semicha. Except perhaps from YCT, and that is utterly unreliable.
Your recipe is a potato puff, it is not a bread.
Igrot Moshe, Orach Chaim 3, 63
ZD: “2 packets red star quick yeast (GF) (around 14 grams)”
So you need some form of yeast.
zahavasdad,
Potato Bread Recipe (I am not commenting on the kashruth of any of the items in this list) I just cut and pasted it
Find me a recipe that doesn’t require 3/4 cup of tapioca flour. Also, why all the effort to prove potato bread? People make all sorts of fluffy cakes made from potato starch for Pesach desserts.
OP: you stated: “Many Ashkenazim object to the “humrah” against using corn.”
Please tell us which Ashkenazic POSKIM you are referring to. Not many are going to argue on the Mishna Berurah. (453:4).
Yeast is not a grain, Yeast is a Fungus
Tapioca is not Kitniyot
How do beans and mustard fall into any of the kitniyos categories. They are not grains, are never made into flour, and do not rise as far as I know.
Sixty years ago peanut oil was sold and used on Pesach with a hecsher. What was the basis for considering it to be kitniyos?ZD,
So if you were to look what Rav Moshe actually says, instead of just quoting what you read elsewhere on the internet, you would see that he says for those who have a minhag not to eat peanut because of kitniyos, for them it is ossur to eat peanuts.
So it is clear that he held it is not a minhag shtus for those who include peanuts in their minhag of kitniyos.
He does say that one can give a hasgocha on items containing peanuts and say on the package that it contains no items that are ossur, but it does contain peanuts.
zahavasdad,
Tapioca is not Kitniyot
Correct. But its flour is often used as a substitute for wheat flours in gluten free recipes. So if you want to prove that potato starch can produce bread as a standalone, you should find a recipe that doesn’t use other flours as a crutch.
But at the end of the day, the ability for potato starch to produce fluffy Pesach cakes isn’t the issue.
It seems to me that corn being considered kitnios is due to language confusion. In Yiddish (and German), KORN is the word for rye (or a generic word for grain) which is one of the 5 minim (Kornbroit is made from rye flour). While corn meal can be and is used to make baked goods, one can easily distinguish American corn bread from regular bread made from wheat or a corn tortilla from a flour tortilla.
Re legumes. Bad translation. Legumes are a class of plants that add nitrogen to the soil. The class includes most bean varieties including those that cannot possibly ground to flour like string beans and others (if you grind up peanuts, all you get is peanut butter) and some varieties that no one considers kitnios. For instance. corn, which is generally considered kitnios, is not a legume while alfalfa sprouts, which is, in fact, a legume is not kitnios.Peanut flour is a thing that exists, though one of the most popular recipes using it is to mix it with water for diet peanut butter.
From an article by Rabbi Rosen of the Star-K:
“Kitniyos are popularly defined as legumes. But what are legumes? The Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 453, defines kitniyos as those products that can be cooked and baked in a fashion similar to chometz grains, yet are not halachically considered in the same category as chometz. Some examples are rice, corn, peas, mustard seed, and all varieties of beans (i.e., kidney, lima, garbanzo, etc.). The Torah term for the fermentation of barley, rye, oats, wheat, and spelt is “chimutz;” the term given for fermentation of kitniyos is “sirchan.””
zd: yeast may be a fungus but certain yeasts are chometz. Also you wrote “The OU doesnt think Quinoa is Kiniyot”. Actually there was a long standing machlokes between two of their poskim (Rabbi Belsky tzatzal and y’bdlc Rabbi Hershel Schacter) which caused the OU not to give a hechsher on Quinoa for a number of years. Two years ago the opinion of R’ Schacter prevailed after the OU mashgichim actually inspected the fields where the Quinoa was grown.
Avram: Is it the potato starch that make them fluffy or the whipped egg whites?
I am well aware of the machlokes between Rav Belsky and Rav Schecter regarding Quinoa.
Nisht, if you had scrolled a bit up you would have seen my post. Rav Moshe’s opinion on peanuts is in Iggrot Moshe, OC 3:63
redleg: you stated “n Yiddish (and German), KORN is the word for rye”. That may be true. But the Mishna Berurah (in at least 2 places) uses the term “Tirkishe Veitz” for corn.
208:2
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?sits=1&req=49624&st=%u05D5%u05D5%u05D9%u05D9%u05D9%u05E5
453:4
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49627&st=&pgnum=95
AK,
“Nisht, if you had scrolled a bit up you would have seen my post. Rav Moshe’s opinion on peanuts is in Iggrot Moshe, OC 3:63”
I know where the teshuva is, I have in fact read through it. But there are commenters who like to assert psakim in name of various poskim when it is clear that they have never opened the specific teshuva and only know about it from seeing comments on the internet.
And my point was proven.
DY:”why-isnt-coffee-or-chocolate-kitniyos”
Because the Rabbanim aren’t goizer something that the tzibor can’t keep.
Also, it’s pikuach nefesh since some of us would not be able to survive for 7 days without chocolate.
DY:”Oh, come one, people can live without bread for eight (plus) days but not coffee or chocolate?” –
Yes!!! What kind of question is that???!!!!
It’s not like all grain foods are forbidden – we do eat matzah which is a form of bread.
And for some of us it’s only 7 days.
Nisht, the comment was only about Rav Moshe’s teshuva. One can also add Rav Chaim Ozer and the Chok Yaakov (453:9). Of course, if you want to be a big machmir you can refrain from consuming potatoes, coffee, tea, garlic, nuts, radishes and olives (see Sha’arei Teshuvah 453:1; Chayei Adam 127:7). You can even refrain from talking to a Sephardi as he might have kitniyot on his breath.
Yeast is not chametz. You can buy KFP wine yeast. Regular active dry yeast is grown using molasses.
Yeast comes in different forms and some are chametz.
Yeast itself is not chametz. In some cases, it may be grown in a chametz medium. Presumably the only kind of commercial yeast with Pesach certification is wine yeast. Of course, there’s wild yeast all over the place — people were using fermentation long before anybody figured out what causes it.
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