The Chabad Menorah battlefield is moving along full steam. Last year it was Seattle, now Poughkeepsie NY.
The Poughkeepsie Journal reports:
A holiday battle with constitutional roots is brewing in the City of Poughkeepsie.
A local rabbi may take the city to court after learning Friday city workers would not erect a menorah on the corner of Main Street and Civic Center Plaza, as they have for years.
Rabbi Yacov Borenstein of Chabad of Mid-Hudson Valley said he was informed by city officials Friday morning employees would not erect the 22-foot, privately owned menorah at its usual high-profile spot in front of an office building.
Borenstein expected the menorah to be set up Friday at its traditional location in advance of a Tuesday ceremony to mark the beginning of Hanukkah.
The rabbi said he has sent out hundreds of brochures to the area’s Jewish community inviting them to Tuesday’s event – at the traditional spot.
“We already advertised where it’s going,” Borenstein said. “I think to tell someone this at the last minute is a terrible thing.”
The city has offered to erect the menorah a short distance away on Main in a city-owned lot, where it would join a x-mas tree and a Muslim display.
Officials said concerns over church-state separation issues, and possible litigation, were among the reasons behind the city’s decision to forbid its employees to erect the menorah at its traditional site.
Corporation Counsel Stephen Wing apologized for the city’s late notice in informing Borenstein of the location change.
Wing said city officials believed the best location for the menorah is with the other displays in the city lot, where a farmers market is held in summer and fall.
“We said we want to have all the cultural symbols on one lot,” Wing said. “The city would be happy to put it on the lot where the other symbols are going.”
Wing said the rabbi could put the menorah up at its traditional location, but he would have to use private, rather than city, workers.
Borenstein said he could not find workers to do the job on such short notice. He said he has the property owner’s permission to place it there, and did not rule out finding a crew Monday to do just that.
City workers went to Borenstein’s Town of Poughkeepsie home Friday and removed the menorah from his garage. But instead of putting it up, workers took the menorah and placed it in city storage until the issue of its location is settled.
The rabbi has retained local attorney Joel Hanig to weigh Chabad’s legal options over the weekend.
Hanig said he asked city officials to put off changing its menorah policy until next year but they refused.
“They are refusing to budge,” Hanig said.
He also criticized them for informing the rabbi at such a late date.
“Saying one day before the holiday ‘We’re not going to do this anymore,’ it’s an unreasonable thing to do,” Hanig said.
Wing pointed out the proposed new location is only a short walk east of the menorah’s traditional spot, and the city would put up signs directing visitors to the new site.
“It’s not like this is being moved very far away,” Wing said.
Borenstein said the traditional location, across from the Dutchess County Courthouse and Poughkeepsie Grand Hotel, is the spot local residents have come to associate with the holiday.
“It loses all its visibility,” Borenstein said of the proposed site.
The menorah issue first came up this year after officials said some residents questioned why symbols from other religions were not included in the city’s holiday displays. The Common Council had Wing review the issue.
City officials then determined it would be best to have the menorah moved to the Main Street lot and placed with displays from other faiths.
Promoting religious displays from various faiths makes a constitutional challenge less likely.
Such issues have sparked heated debates in communities across the United States over freedom of expression and the separation of church and state. Civil suits have been brought over mangers, menorahs and other religious displays.
Wing advised the council this year the U.S. Supreme Court has found x-mas trees and other decorations such as wreaths and candy canes are secular, not religious in nature. That means they do not violate the separation of church and state provisions in the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Courts have ruled menorahs are religious symbols.
Key for Poughkeepsie and other municipalities is to avoid creating the appearance that government endorses one religion over another.
Borenstein said he is not sure how the matter will play out.
“We’ll see what’s going to happen Monday,” Borenstein said of possible court action. “It’s just all very shocking. The city knew about this weeks ago and they didn’t tell me.”
Wing acknowledged the late notice should not have happened but that the menorah is welcome at the proposed new location with the other displays.
“We felt the best thing to do was to make the city’s holiday season as open as possible to everyone,” Wing said.
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47 Responses
RABBI BORENSTEIN
WE ARE WITH YOU ,HATZLOCHO RABOH IN YOUR SHLICHUS.
Y.S.L
Where is not such a “rav mechel” what’s taking him so long
This is NOT our RIGHT! We cannot and must not impose our religion on the public! This is NOT the way our chchomim instructed us to observe the mitzvah. WE ARE IN GOLUS! Menorah must be lit IN OUR HOMES! The government allows us and THAT is our right and religious freedom. A menora is NOT a decoration. It is an object of mitzvah. Let’s also put up model arbah minim all over on Succos,too. Let’s ban chometz from the public and put up seder pictures all over town on Pessach. Do we have to annoy the goyim? Can’t we just do our mitzvos b’tzin’a?If we’d only DO the mitzvohs properly and not show off!
#3, I don’t think it’s so much imposing our religion as reminding the public that not everybody celebrates xmas. This is not to say I agree with the practice… I just don’t think it’s done for the reason you say.
Proud KAJ-WH TIDE,
You must have only learnt half the simam. If you do it in your house it should be done preferably so that people OUTSIDE could see it.
Based on the comment, “Wing said the rabbi could put the menorah up at its traditional location, but he would have to use private, rather than city, workers, “the shayla is why he doesnt put his kapota between his legs so to speak and put it up himself like they said he could???
Yoel is right. They do not erect these menorahs for any religious purpose. It is a simple publicity gimmick, making Lubavitch look good in the eyes of the non-religous Jews. They also truly rejoice when the local goverments object and forbid the placements of these Menorahs, as this gives them an enormous amount of free publicity and in turn gives them political clout in the localities.
Since the Chachomim gave us specific guidelines on how to be MEKAYAIM the mitzvah, and making public displays of a menorah does not fit thos guidelines, I don’t see what mitzvah is being accomplished. The greatest Kiddush Hashem is when people follow the halachah to the letter of the law, not when people make up new things because they think it is a good idea.
It is intresting to note that while many yidden light the menora at the window for pisumsei nisa… the custom in CHABAD is to light it inside on the table, where noone from the outside can see it. Why then, do they insist on putting it everywhere, from city centers to car roofs?!
I happened to come upon a public lighting last year by Chabad at a ski hill. It was in the afternoon in broad daylight, way before plag hamincha, and the rabbi said the berachos with Shem and Malchus! That’s what happens when you start deviating from what halacha says, rachmana letzlan.
mark Levin is obviously the one who only learned half a siman. There is a chiyuv of pirsumei nisa in the home. There are shitos and minhagim that fit the criteria of Shulchan Oruch out the front door, by the front door kneged the mezuza, by the window, or just in the house. There is NO PLACE in Shulchan Aruch, including the Shu’Ar of the Graz, that says there is a chiyuv on goyishe city property in the street, or on the roofs of cars.
נר חנוכה בביהכנ”ס
הרב יוסף אברהם הלוי העלער
ראש כולל מנחם שע”י מזכירות כ”ק אדמו”ר
ומדליקין ומברכין בביהכ”נ משום פרסומי ניסא (תרע”א ס”ז)
הנה בב”י הובא כמה טעמים בזה: א) משום זכר למקדש תיקנו להדליק בביה”כ; ב) מפני האורחים שאין להם בית ואכלו ושתו… בבי כנישתא; ג) כיון שאין אנו יכולים לקיים המצוה כתיקונה (דאין מדליקין מבחוץ משום שיד עכו”ם תקיפה) מדליקים בביהכ”נ דאיכא פרסום יותר; ד) והוא מכל מקום להוציא מי שאינו בקי ואינו זריז בזאת.
הנה לפי הנך טעמא דכל עיקר ההדלקה בביה”כ הוא משום דאיכא פרסום יותר, ולהוציא האינו בקי ואינו זריז, הרי אין עיקר ההדלקה שייך בביה”כ דוקא ורק ששם נמצאים הרבים. בדרך כלל, אולם כל עיקר ההדלקה אינה שייכת לביה”כ יותר מבשאר מקום ציבור, דהעיקר הוא הפרסום ברבים, ולהוציא האינו בקי והאינו זריז בזאת ההדלקה שם הוא כמו בבה”כ. ותקנת כ”ק אדמו”ר הן הן דברי הכלבו.
אולם להטעם שתיקנו להדליק בביה”כ משום זכר למקדש, מובן דרק בביה”כ תיקנו לה משום זכר שהי’ במקדש, אך בסתם מקום רבים אין ענין להדליק כלל, דמה זכר למקדש שייך.
וז”ל הריטב”א בשבת כ”ג ע”א: “ונהגו להדליק בבתי כנסיות כדי לעשות פרסומי ניסא במקום הרבים” ומבואר בהדיא דעיקר תקנת ההדלקה היא במקום הרבים, ופשוט שבזמנים ההם מקום הרבים הרגיל הי’ בביה”כ אולם עיקר תקנת ההדלקה הוא לפרסומי ניסא במקום הרבים, ואינה שייכת לביה”כ יותר מכל מקום ציבורי.
ב. והנה הנמצא במקום שיש רק גויים יל”ע האם יש ענין בפרסומי ניסא. הנה במג”א מבואר דאחר חצות אם כל בני ביתו ישנים א”א להדליק עם ברכה, משום דאין כאן פרסומי ניסא.
ובשלטי גיבורים כ’ “ואם הוא בין הנכרים לבדו צריך להדליק ומשמע שם בברכה, הגם דבביתו בלילה כשאין פרסום כלל לא מברכים אעפ”כ שונה הדין כשהוא לבדו ואין פרסום כלל, דאין פרסום כלל בין הגויים, דעכ”פ מפרסם.
ומבואר דפרסומי ניסא לגויים שפיר נחשב פרסום ואפשר לברך (ולהעיר מהתעוררות התשובה ח”א קנ”ג דאם נמצא בין הגויים ידליק בחלון דווקא כדי שיראו הגויים וישאלו וכו’).
אולם בשעצ”י הביא מחמד משה, שאפי’ כשהוא בלילה לבדו בביתו ידליק ויברך הגם שאין פרסום, וכ’ דמבואר כן בשלטי גיבורים, דהנמצא בין הגויים לבדו יברך, ומבואר דהפרסום לאחרים אינו מעכב לעצם הברכה, ולפי”ז כשרוצה להדליק במקום הרבים לפרסומי ניסא, וליכא יהודים רק גויים א”א לברך, ויל”ע בכ”ז עוד.
ומובן דבמקום הרבים, דליכא יהודים ורק גויים – אפשר לברך, משום דאיכא פרסומי ניסא.
All of a sudden chabad is no good
when you guys are in manhattan r’l stam dreiying around you come running to eat in the public sukkah
by who? of course CHABAD the largest and only one around. We are BH everywhere,only Bizchus the Lubavitcher Rebbe are so many yidden been mekarev to yiddiskeit. Many yidden have become to balei teshuvah only because of these menorahs etc.
I am so grateful to CHABAD for giving all you SNAGS what to complain about. Today it’s Menorahs…tomorrow it’s putting Tefillin on non-frum Jews. What would you do without us?? I think we give you your raison d’etre.
You are all so ASHAMED of your public Jewishness, except as how it manifests itself in badmouthing Lubavitch. Then you show true Achdus, and you all join together as one, to tsk tsk @ Chabadniks.
Why don’t you stop so much with the Mussar Shmuessen & start DOING SOMETHING to help bring Jewish pride, which may lead, G-d willing, to greater involvement in Mitzvos!!!
That goes against the grain, however; you believe your insularism & isolationist practices are the only way to be Torah-true Jews. How sad.
I would remind the chabadzkers that we are in Golus and we don’t “raitz on” the goyim in such silly matters. But the Rebbe shlita/zatzal has paskened that the Geula is here already and therefore he has changed the halacha in many ways. But why not? Just like they can “demand” from Hakodosh Boruch Hu to bring Moshiach etc…, they can demand from goyim to have a menorah on public display.
In our generation,we have come to the point that the IKKAR is ignored and the TOFEIL is the main priority. Upside-down and backwards.
I don’t think the chabadniks do it as a mitzvah for themselves. They do it to bring awareness of mitzvah to those who weren’t aware of it in the first place.
Sure Chabad Rabbis would know about the chag, but they do this for those who don’t.
“Why don’t you stop so much with the Mussar Shmuessen & start DOING SOMETHING to help bring Jewish pride, which may lead, G-d willing, to greater involvement in Mitzvos!!!”
Ha!
Ever heard of Aish Hatorah? Yorah Umesorah? Oorah Kiruv Richokim?
The list is endless…….
Another CHABAD Chilul Hashem.The Mitzvah of Pirsumei Nissah relates to Chanukah candles in the house -ner ish ubaiso. Not in the street.They are imitating the non Jewish Xmas practice of lighing trees in public.
stam a deya
perhaps you should remove your yarlmuka in public not to “raitz on” the goyim there are shitos like that or hide your tzitzot in public not to “raitz on”the goyim. your not the slights bit worried about “raitzing on” goyim . why does it say vhidlikuo neros BECHATZROS kodoshecha wasnt the window enough? and yes perhaps if we all did demand from Hakodosh Boruch Hu to bring Moshiach like we say in shemona esray 3 times a day es tzemach dovid avdecha mehara tzotzmiach (how do we say such things like this in shemona esrai and demand from hashem what he should do)the world would be a better place to live
#13 – When us guys are dreying around in Manhatten…..It is your Rebbe that takes teenage boys and puts them in the middle of Time Sq. amidst all the pritzus to put tefillin on people. But the Yetzer Hara doesn’t affect lubavitcher bochrum because they are on a mission from the Rebbe….and if you believe that, you probably think he is moshiach as well. Ha!! What a joke!
#14 – What would we do without you? Sorry to burst your bubble, BUT, as #18 points out, Aish Hatorah, Torah Umesorah, chinuch atzmai, aguda, Oorah, Ohr Somaech, The hundreds of kollelim all around the world, Gesher, Torah Links, Chai Lifeline, yeshivos and mosdos of all colors and stripes etc…. Open any newspaper and you will see what we do. Wherever you go, we are there. One kiruv Rav out of town does more then your entire community could ever hope to accomplish. Go down the list: Detroit, Chicago, California, Florida etc… I’m so sick of tired of hearing what chabad does. Nobody is interested in your brand of Judaism besides the occasional weirdo here and there). You turn off more people then you turn on. You are blinded with you own arrogance to see past your mind-numbing cult. We make more of an impact than you bluffers could ever hope to make. You are only better in one thing over us…..and that’s PR. Other then that, you are no big deal at all. Enough is enough.
i sympathize with the lubavitcher as they were told so late in the schedule that the city would only allow a different and not a highly visible spot.
i would opt to go to the new spot, however, with heavy markers indicating where it is located. we are still in golus and the goyim are defending their own religions by denying our rights.you know even in israel the muslims dictate spots like the mokem hamikdash, chevrons moras hamachpela and in jericho, kever of yosef hatzadik. its no surprise to see this happen in golus america.
hatzlocho raba.
Sam the Deah
Wearing a Yarmulka is a halacha.No one should violate the Law to satisfy the Nonjewish society.Lighting Chanukah Menoros in the streets is not a Halacha.The Chanukah Menirah is lit at home and in Shul.That’s it.The same is true in Ertez Yisrael.CHABAD street lightings of the Menorah is a Mishegas of theirs.It is not a Halacha and if they make a bravha it may very weell be a bracha levatalah Chas VeSholom
Sam the wanna be a deah,
What you say in shmonei esrei is a bakasha not a demand. In Judaism we don’t demand anything from Hashem. We request it. Sorry to shock you, but Hashem makes demands of us….
stam a deya#21
Sorry to burst your bubble,but where there is greatness the world will follow!
daat toirah #23 i refer you to #12’s commentהנה בב”י הובא כמה טעמים בזה: א) משום זכר למקדש תיקנו להדליק בביה”כ; ב) מפני האורחים שאין להם בית ואכלו ושתו… בבי כנישתא; ג) כיון שאין אנו יכולים לקיים המצוה כתיקונה (דאין מדליקין מבחוץ משום שיד עכו”ם תקיפה) מדליקים בביהכ”נ דאיכא פרסום יותר; ד) והוא מכל מקום להוציא מי שאינו בקי ואינו זריז בזאת.
הנה לפי הנך טעמא דכל עיקר ההדלקה בביה”כ הוא משום דאיכא פרסום יותר, ולהוציא האינו בקי ואינו זריז, הרי אין עיקר ההדלקה שייך בביה”כ דוקא ורק ששם נמצאים הרבים. בדרך כלל, אולם כל עיקר ההדלקה אינה שייכת לביה”כ יותר מבשאר מקום ציבור, דהעיקר הוא הפרסום ברבים, ולהוציא האינו בקי והאינו זריז בזאת ההדלקה שם הוא כמו בבה”כ. ותקנת כ”ק אדמו”ר הן הן
דברי הכלבו
before you decide whats a bracha levatala learn the halachos because your whole comment is a bracha levatalah
To all chabstkys and anti chabad let me explain one thing who puts tefilan on non frum Jews you know who who is by the kosel on succos sharing the mitzvha of shakeing the luvav.Now I ask you why is this a so called chilul hashem.
And now that I’ve had my say re the villifying of Lubavitch, I must say, as a Lubavitcher, I would definitely formally object to the late notice of the change of venue. However, if I couldn’t erect the Menorah using my own crew I’d opt for the new site: better something than nothing.
Happy now??
For the mifocal age, the bigger the chanukiah the better.
Chabad is putting all of us in sakoneh, b/c of there religion based on nonsense
all bashers on this article are no better than the n.k. they also fight all jews that dont see things their way
Stam Lehoir,
Everyone here claims they are chachomim univonim but cannot respond to a simple Halacha (most probably because they do not know how to learn it).
Please do agree that the Rebbe was able to learn better than you can, now I do not want to ruin your ego, yes, I’m sure you are a Gaon Olam but please admit there are those who can learn better than you can.
In fact, if you look in the Mishnah they actually used to light the Menorahs in the street. Only later they stopped for reasons that do not apply today.
And as far as ignorance goes, the only reason why lubavitchers do not light by the window is because of Maras Ayin, so dont be quick to draw your own conclusions.
And regarding the Shliach, well, in Lubavitch no one is excluded and if a Shliach isn’t geared to be a Talmud Chacham thet doesn’t mean he is excluded form teh Chabad community of Shluchim. And regarding the head shliach, well sorry to tell you they are extremely busy and cannot paskin shaalos all day.
stam a deya. It would be nice if you “asked for moshiach” not because you have to say it in Shmona Esrei, But because you REALLY want to end the galus, you REALLY want Moshiach to come. FOR REAL, FOR REAL. The Lubavitcher Rebbe wanted Moshiach to come FOR REAL. When someone very close to you is very sick and you would desperately do anything, anything, you wouldnt demand of hashem to bring his Refuah? Besides, why do you get so jumpy every time Chabad article is brought about. You say you hate chabad as much as reformed and conservative, yet when an article about them is in YW your comments are nowhere to be found. Perhaps because deep in your heart you KNOW that reform and conservatives are wrong you dont envy them, you dont want to be like them. But Chabad is a different story. Its called being jeolous.
To Jack77 and Stam the Deya:
You said “Ever heard of Aish Hatorah? Yorah Umesorah? Oorah Kiruv Richokim?”
When I was living in Russia, the first people who explained to that I’m a Jew were Chabad.
When I came to states, Chabad greeted me and continued to teach me.
As far as all the organizations that you mentioned plus a whole bunch of other ones I only heard about them, when I opened mail from them asking for money.
I’m sure they do a lot of work, but don’t even try to compare the amount of work that Chabad does to all those organizations.
And to the rest:
Where in Shulchan Oruch does it say that putting Menorah on the street is against Hallacha????
It doesn’t say anywhere that putting Menorah on the street is osur.
I don’t know about Detroit, California, etc, but in Chicago I know a lot of BTs. 95% of them came to Judaism thru Chabad.
And Stamthedeya if you are “..sick and tired..” then maybe you should see a doctor, especially psychologist.
Read your own comments, looks like you’re losing your temper.
Thank you Chabad for reducing the Menorah from a religious symbol to a secular one.
stam a dreya
” Sorry to shock you” speaking on the topic of shock the shock has yet to come!
You are all letting off smoke, and black smoke!!
When speaking with baali tshuva and/or the man in the street, the word is, “Chabad catches our attention”, after the attention is caught there are many paths to travel served by different kiruv groups to reach true avodas hashem.
Let us not be jealous, use anger, or shitos, to show we are #1, kindle your candles and bring more light to the world of darkness.
I cant get over how a menorah in public makes alot of you angry. But you have no problem with the x-mas trees and decors every where you turn. This REALLY REALLY is the Golus. Thank G-d for the Lubavitcher Rebbe who taught and made lubavitch different than the Yeshivish world. And thats what touches a nerve to all you lubav critics. Seeing that you were not taught this way is painful. It is human nature, when someone has better than you or more than you its normal to be envious to the point where you find fault in that person. Live and let live. I dont agree with alot of other Chassidish ways or yeshivish ways. But not to the point where I become angry and venemous. Because I aint jealous of them.
There is no kiyum mitzvah of parsumei nissa by putting Menorahs up in public places. The mitzva is ner ish ubeiso. So unless you live on the street, it’s a waste of time and money that is better spent in productive endeavors.
Sane, would you say its a waste of time when that Menorah in public you so dispise sparks a non frum jews Neshama and starts his journey to being frum? It is such common sense why Chabad does this, why else? You think they have nothing better to do? It is because they are proud of our religion and want to share it with the rest of the non frum jews everywhere. This is simple ABC. And all of you stop caring so much what the Goyim think. Since when did we jews become so insecure?
A Menorah on the roof of a car is the symbol of the Chabad religion.
To Sruly613:
Rav Yakov Kamenetzky did not wear his tallis in the street when walking to shul because we are in golus and should conduct ourselves with a low profile. Yes, what goyim think should also be considered in conducting ourselves. It certainly is inapprorpiate to engage in litigation to make a public menorah display. There are many other ways to be mekarev rechokim.
Symbol of the Rooftop Menorah is the symbol of the Chabad Religion….wow…..as Lubavitch has no oversight nor self control this rue might be a wonderful spectator sport. Must we drag everything through the courts and enrich our lawyer friends? What about just being and being part of and not instead of….There is beauty in this chag….lets refind the light………
Did I read right or did no one comment on the Chilul Hashem they are causing?
XMas trees are fine in the USA.This is Galus.This is not a Jewish country.Yet we are free to practice our religion even in public when the Halacha calls for it.Even in Eretz Yisrael and even if Rav Eliashiv was PM there would be no street lighting of Chanukah Menoros.Except for the self aggrandizing CHABAD Teshuva about public lightings no other posek says it.Did you ever wonder why no other normative group Litvish or chassidish does this?
If CHABAD would stick to helping people with Tefillin and learning to daven and other mainstream good works eveyone would admire them.
Sruly1,
I do not demand anything from Hashem. If I am zocheh I get it. If not, not. It doesn’t matter if you are asking for a sick person refua or for the geula. It might come as a surprise to you, but this is ABC’s of yiddishkeit. Hashem demands, we obey. It is only the arrogance of your religion that has introduced such strange customs amongst others. As for the conservative analogy, I don’t hate them or you. I pity both.
But you and your new religion is truly more dangerous. Sheker has a kiyum when mixed with emes. But I have no doubt that the time will come when you yourself will cry over your grandchildren. Just ask any older Lubavitcher in their 60’s and 70’s how they are ashamed of what the younger generation has become. You and other your age are a disgrace to the Frum world as well as to yourselves. I only daven that one day you will come to your senses. If Matisayu left chabad and saw thru it, perhaps you will as well……
#33 – The reason why there were no litvishe mosdos to help you in Russia is because we are not bank-rolled by Putin like chabad is as was reported in Yeshivaworld some time back. Although it sounds strange to a chabadzker, the ends do not justify the means. We will not sing Putin’s praise and will not be bought off….Sorry.
Stam a deya, when Chabad came to my city, Gorbachev was still in power and nobody even heard of Putin.
If I’m not mistaken it was 1989 or 1990.
Plus Putin helps Chabad as much as Bush.
And what do you mean by “although…, the ends do not justify the means.”????
What songs of Putin???
to 12 & 25:
While the *reason* for the takana to light in beth haknesses might have been for pirssumey nissa and to enable many to have the brachot etc.; the takana itself did NOT include any public place; only Beth haknessess. So where is the source for making a brocho in any public place (especially not a house)?
We do not make our ownc takannot Shulchan Oruch does bnot have the lighting in other places where “רבים מצויים שם”, so it appears to be secluded for batey knessiyot.