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I’ve been hearing this strange idea these last coupla years about sleeping being another form of drinking yourself merry. If so, is this good enough for the Daled Kossos as well, or will that be a problem with הסיבה since you can’t merely lean while sleeping.
Some people can sleep in a leaning position.
Problem is – how would you say the bracha oveir la’asiyasan?
Why is this in “Rants”?
Why is this in “Rants”?
It’s probably a rant against people who can’t fargin someone who follows ad d’lo yada kipshuto.
How are you understanding the Rema differently than the widely plastered am haaratzus?
I always make sure to be yotzei the mitzvah of drinking the four cups until I don’t know the difference between V’hi She’amda and Baruch Hamakom. Also, that way, I really do see Eliyahu Hanavi come to the door. Just one downside: I woke up the next morning with charoses stuck in my beard. Although it came in handy when there was no charoses left at the second seder.
its a bit tricky. make sure you sleep at least 60 neshimos or you are not yotze and will have to start again, but then, if you do you will have to wash negel vasser again and it might be a shayla of baal tosif since in the seder we only have urchatz and netilas yadayim before motzi. certainly there are hetterim, but for this reason some are makpid to drink only non mevushal red wine. also, on years when shabbos is 1st day of pesach and kidduch friday night is a doraisa some hold you shouldnt sleep for the kossos because it wont be recognozable if the sleeping is for the arba kossos or for shina bshabbos taanug. also, some hold that when 1st night is motsai shabbos, due to sakanna – kiddush, which includes havdala should be made davka with wine, but the other kossos one may be yotze via sleeping.
I imagine the two ways to read the Rema are as follows:
1) Instead of being mekayem the chiyuv of ad delo yoda by getting drunk, you can be mekayem the chiyuv by sleeping, in the state of which you are lo yoda. This does not patter you from the chiyuv of drinking, which you are mekayem by drinking yoser milimudo.
2) Instead of being mekayem the chiyuv of ad delo yoda by getting drunk, you can be mekayem the chiyuv by falling asleep through drinking. If you consume enough wine to cause you to sleep, you are mekayem the chiyuv.
In the second reading, you cannot just go to sleep; the sleep must come through the drinking. This is possibly what Halevi meant. Although I can see why you could read this into the Rema, I don’t understand why this should be the case.
“or will that be a problem with הסיבה since you can’t merely lean while sleeping.”
Girls don’t have to lean, so for girls it should be fine. But why would anyone want to give up on the one opportunity a year to drink 4 cups of wine?
You should look like this after drinking the four cups:
cute. I should get that bib for my nephews.
Halevi: I haven’t seen the Darkei Moshe, but the Rema in Shulchan Aruch is clear that the kiyum of ad delo yoda is the sleeping, not the drinking?
LU: Why is this the “one opportunity” ?
I don’t know what your society is like, but where I come from, drinking 4 cups of wine any other day of the year would NOT be acceptable! (certainly not for girls)
Yekke: If you’d just repeat your words with though, you’d realize the truth! How does “Ad delo yoda” become a chiuv, a mitzvah or a kiyum of its own? If I’m correct, “ad” means “until”. What does “until one does not know..” get to be a chiuv??? And would such a statement make sense? Shouldn’t a SHIUR be preceded with something to DO, some ACTION?
So for those who are not yet ad delo yoda, actually the Gemara DOES make sense. It IS preseeded with something, they’re hiding from you. Gemarah actually starts Amar Rava chayav inish lebesumay bPuria ad delo yoda… Whoops. Now it makes some sense. THe kium is besumay, and the shiur is ad (translated “until”) is the shiur.
(when you’re eating Matzho on Pesach, there’s no Kiyum of “Kezayis”. If I recall it has to be Matzoh, with a Shiur of kezayis. Eating a kezayis of apples is not “another option” to be mekayem Kezayis Matzoh. Same here. Going to sleep on Purim without “besumey” is not “another option” to do away with “besumay”. One has to do Besumay – with a Shiur (ad) Until…)
(I think that’s p’shat in Haleivi’s cryptic Rant)
Ooooh… I didn’t know we could include pictures in the new version of the boards. #offtopic
The Wolf
LF: I wrote you a long response, but I lost it before I managed to post it, and I don’t have time to rewrite it now.
One point, though. There is two registered tzdadim in the achronim – is the mitzva to drink, or is the mitzvah to get drunk?
I was working with the rationale that the mitzvah is to be drunk, and the drinking is only the method, not the goal. In that, I tried to explain the Rema in two ways – (a) you can attain that goal however you want, but you must also drink because Purim is a Yom Mishte. The two chiyuvim are nonrelated. (b) You must achieve “ad delo yoda” by virtue of wine.
You understand the mitzvah is the drinking, and being drunk is the shiur (See Emek Brocho/R’ Yisroel Salanter, that it isn’t even a shiur, it is a p’tur. You must drink and drink and drink… you can stop when you are that drunk). Accordingly, the Rema is very simple – you must drink wine until you reach the stage of Ad Delo Yoda, which can be until you are no longer thinking straight or until you fall asleep.
Halevi: I haven’t seen the Darkei Moshe, but the Rema in Shulchan Aruch is clear that the kiyum of ad delo yoda is the sleeping, not the drinking?
What is “the kiyum of ad d’lo yoda”? Ad d’lo yoda is either a shiur or a p’tur. It is not the mitzvah. The Rema in Shulchan Aruch is perfectly clear as well. He says וי”א דאין צריך להשתכר כ”כ. He is limiting the amount of drunknness required, not eliminating the chiyuv to be somewhat intoxicated.
What does Ad d’lo yodah have to do with Pesach. The mitzvah of Pesach is zechira which clearly requires the Seder participant to be awake and cogent. The daled cosos, as every one knows, are keneged the four lashonos of geulah and are part of the the zechira. Those individuals who cannot drink four reviis size servings of normal wine over the course of a several hour period without nodding off have a couple of eitzehs:
1. Low alcohol content wine. Normal wine is 12-13% alcohol. Low alcohol wine, very much like “new wine” which was drunk in antiquity, is about 5% alcohol and modern pasteurized grape juice has, of course no alcohol. Note that many poskim hold that using grape juice is a b’dieved at best.
2. While the largest shiur of reviis that I know of is 5.3 fl oz per the Chazon Ish (N.B. 5 oz is a normal serving of wine in the U.S.) there are recognized poskim who hold that s reviis is considerably smaller. One man d’amar, I forget who, holds that a reviis is only 3 fl oz. While it is, of course, preferable to be yotzei all shitos, it might be wise to use a smaller reviis in order to stay awake and and be mekiyaim the main mitzvah of the seder, zechira.
One man d’amar, I forget who, holds that a reviis is only 3 fl oz.
R’ Chaim Naeh. I think 2.9, actually.
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