- This topic has 64 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 8 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
I have permission from my father to stop using our chassidish minhagim and revert to minhag ashkenaz. It’s not that I no longer belive in the derech of the baal shem tov, I just feel based on what I’ve learned throught my life that the stam ashkenazi nusach and minhagim are mehudar. Does anyone here have experience doing this?
Who said your father has the right to “allow” you to change from your family mesorah?
I don’t have a source for this (I heard it in a shiur) but apparently, Rav Moshe Feintein kept a certain minhag (maybe standing for havdalah?) which he felt wasn’t the best halachically, because his father did. He told his sons that he is not transmitting this minhag to them.
There is also an explicit teshuvah in Igros Moshe, as I recall, which says one can switch from Sefard to Ashkenaz (but not vice versa).
I think changing mesora is dangerous
I believe strongly in following the minhagim of our parents (barring extenuating circumstances). Once we start uprooting MEsora because of what is “better” even if it is in fact better due to historical factors, or new changes in society it is opening pandoraas box
Reb Moshe paskened one can always revert back to nusach ashkenaz. I read the teshuva but don’t have the mareh makom in front of me. Normally we say “all titosh toras imecha” so we keep our minhagim, but historically speaking all chassidim have the toras imecha of minhagei ashkenaz that they changed, so technically reverting to the earlier toras imecha is what is being discussed here. Yes, this is a gross oversimplification, I know. There were other minhagim in europe pre-chassidus, not just ashkenaz, but I’m brushing with broad strokes. Perhaps the OP should look back into his lineage to see what the original minhagim of his family were before they became chassidim.
Very interesting. Bear in mind that anyone who has chassidish mesorah, it cannot be more than 250 years old, going back to ashkenaz doesn’t seem so bad.
Do you live in a chassidish community? When you say ashkenaz, do you mean, ‘yekkish’ like Breuers style proper ashkenaz? Or do you mean regular yeshivish/litvish?“Bear in mind that anyone who has chassidish mesorah, it cannot be more than 250 years old”
Every minhag is “only” x number of years old.
With Pesach on the horizon, consider recent annual discussion over Kitniyos. It is only a millenia or so old. Why cant I just revert to earlier minhag (as implied in the gemara) that allowed kitnioyos?
ubiquitin: Regarding Kitniyos: Because the Ramah says “v’ein lshanos”? Because the Shaarei Teshuvah says that it is a minhag that goes back hundreds of years and adds the words “V’ein L’hakil Vhameikel Poretz Geder”?
See Igros Moshe Orach Chaim 4:24
“Behold it is known that all the people of Poland, Hungary, and Russia…are children of Ashkenaz even Chasidim. And until Chasidus spread they all prayed with nusach Ashkenaz. However, the Chasidic leaders lead them to pray in a different nusach with various changes…They changed the customs of their ancestors and our great rabbis of Germany and France. The reason for the change is not clear nor how they permitted a change from the established nusach….If one desires to change back and pray in nusach Ashkenaz, since it is the nusach of our ancestors and rabbis, he is permitted as he is returning to what once was.
iacisrmma
exactly my point.
Ubiquitin – I don’t think it’s comparable. Kitniyus is a specific minhag which applies to the entire Ashkenaz world and which became halacha for the entire Ashkenazi world. Everyone, even the Sephardi poskim, agree that the Ashkenazim have to follow the Rema.
Chassidism, on the other hand, was a (hashkafic) movement within the Ashkenzai world that broke off (to an extent) from main-stream Orthodoxy, and many people are anti-Chassidus even today. As part of their movement, they may have taken on different minhagim, so if someone wants to break off from that movement and return to mainstream Orthodoxy, I can see where it may not be a problem halachically (and does not begin to compare to an Ashkenazi Jew deciding to eat kitniyus on Pesach).
A better comparison might be the son of a Religious-Zionist deciding that he is not a Zionist anymore and therefore stops saying Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut.
Also see MTAB’s post – I just noticed it.
What about all the non-chasidim who became chasidish these days?
I don’t know. I don’t see how it can be a bigger problem than the original chassidim becoming chassidish in the first place.
I never thought it was such a problem for someone to establish their own minhagim when they start their own home as long as it’s according to halacha. But I don’t know, maybe it is, and everyone should ask their own sheilah.
My impression is that a lot of people nowadays don’t keep up the minhagim of their ancestors, but maybe I’m wrong, or maybe they’re wrong.
I think that many families today don’t have such strong mesorahs to begin with. With the transition from Europe to America, I think a lot got lost. Many people stopped being Frum altogether and later their grandchildren were chozer b’teshuva, and many others became more “modern” and their grandchildren “frummed out” In both cases, there was a break in the mesorah.
Amongst those who immigrated to the US after the War and retained their Yiddishkeit, as holocaust survivors many of them also probably lost some of their mesorah. Many of them were young when they lost their parents, and spending all those years in concentration camps, they could easily have forgotten their parents’ minhagim.
Also, in the US today, many people become more “Yeshivish” than their families and when they go away to Yeshiva, they may take on the minhagim from their Yeshiva.
I don’t know if it’s right or wrong, but my impression is that this is common.
LU
no they are not the same, I definitely did not mena to imply they were. Of course kitniyos is different, the difference is it is older and more codified. Kitniyos is perhaps the oldest minhag we have (and Yom haatzmaut is a worse example)
thats isnt to say it is an absolute rule, their are times were we do make drastic changes or perhaps allow them to happen (as Ive pointed out to you many times.)
but mesora should be respected, and just disacrding it is a dangerous game.I’m genuinly surprised this view of mine is controversial.
“I’m genuinly surprised this view of mine is controversial.”
I was surprised that the idea of changing minhagim was so controversial. I imagine you must be from a family with a strong mesorah. I’m not – my parents are both bt, plus we ended up going to a different kind of school than the Yeshiva my father went to. Also, as a girl (and from a family that is mostly female), the whole topic was never particularly relevant to me.
If a family has a very strong mesora, I guess that changing it would be a big deal. But I think that a lot of families don’t. In the OP’s case, since his father gave him permission, and since he is going back to the original minhag of the Ashkenazi world, I really wouldn’t think there would be a problem with it.
I know an Ashkenazi man who married a Sephardi woman. When he got married, he decided that he wanted to take on her minhagim and become Sephardi. He said that he asked Rav Ovadiah zatsal, who told him that not only is he allowed to, he is supposed to, because originally the Sephardim were the majority in Eretz Yisrael, so the Ashkenazim were all supposed to become Sephardim (and Sephardim would t/f still remain the majority).
Of course, as with any second or third hand – story (second-hand for me, third-hand for you), it should be taken with a grain of salt. And I have seen piskei halacha of R’ Ovadiah’s in which he differentiated between Ashkenzaim and Sefardi which would imply that even if he said this, he may not have meant it that literally.
But I am fairly certain that at least the first part is correct (that R’ Ovadiah, zatsal, told him that he can be Sefardi).“but mesora should be respected, and just disacrding it is a dangerous game.”
I don’t think anyone’s disagreeing with that. No one was saying that anyone should “just discard it”. The OP thought about it carefully, asked his father’s permission, and only changed minhagim because based on what he’s learned he felt it made sense in this instance.
Obviously he didn’t do it so lightly and did find it a difficult move to make which is why he posted here.
There are many more Sephardim going to Ashkenazi yeshivos and adopting Ashkenazi minhagim than vice versa.
LU
You seem to change your mind a lot in your posts“I was surprised that the idea of changing minhagim was so controversial.”
and later
“I don’t think anyone’s disagreeing with [but mesora should be respected, and just discarding it is a dangerous game].”
“Obviously he didn’t do it so lightly and did find it a difficult move to make which is why he posted here ”
which is why I never said not to change. I said it was a dangerous game but in extenuating circumstances may be appropriate.
Lilmod, that is not a good example as it is a mitzva d’Oraita to thank Hashem for His great miracles. Regarding, Rav Ovadia, he did hold that but did not so much advertise it. Ashkenazi poskim, of course, disagreed. BTW, there is a small group centered in Givat Shaul that holds that we should go back to the old minhagim of Eretz Yisrael, including (they claim) keeping only one day of Rosh HaShana. BTW, Rav Shlomo Zalman camefrom a Chassidc background but davened nusach Askenaz as he leearned in the Etz Chaim yesiva. However, he defended nusach Sepharad against Rav Eliashiv’s pesak that EVERY AShkenazi must daven nusach Ashkenaz.
Lubavitch is from Lita, so I’d adopt stam yeshivish minhagim
I thought Lubavitch is in Russia. But the point would be not where the chasidus you follow was based, but on where your family originated and what minhagim they had before they became Chabadnikim.
are switching (back) to Ashkenaz, might as well go back to the original, ie what we call today the German/Yekke style. That’s the most reliable set of customs we know of.
link removed
LU: R’ Ovadia zt”l held very strongly that Jews in EY should follow the rulings of the Bet Yosef – he held that the Mechaber was the authoritative posek for EY. He also paskened that although one is supposed to hear Parshas Zachor read in the style they use (so a litvak may not be yotzeh if he hears someone read it with chassidish pronunciation), anyone could hear it with a Sefardic pronunciation, as that is the “proper” way to read it.
As for switching to Ashkenaz, I did that a while ago. There were a few reasons for it. Mainly, as R’ Moshe zt”l wrote, there is no explanation for why the chassidim changed the text of davening, and it was a change to the text that had been used for centuries. Why would I want to use it?
DaMoshe,
“R’ Moshe zt”l wrote, there is no explanation for why the chassidim changed the text of davening, and it was a change to the text that had been used for centuries”
I’d be interested to see that teshuva inside. I thought it was well known, that the changes were to parallel the changes that the Arizal instituted in nusach sfarad.For any CRers who may not know; The first major change by the Chassidim in nusach hatefila, was by the Alter Rebbe/Baal HaTanya. The Arizal had put in various changes to the original Sefardi nusach, and the Ba’al HaTanya copied them into nusach ashkenaz. That’s why the Lubavitcher siddur is called Nusach Ari. The later Chassidic leaders made further changes according to mystic sources, and this eventually became the Nusach sfard siddur of the chassidim today.
I’ve taken my eye off this topic for a bit and it’s gone a long way. I think people misunderstood my original post.
I said “Bear in mind that anyone who has chassidish mesorah, it cannot be more than 250 years old, going back to ashkenaz doesn’t seem so bad”
Ubiquitin replied “Every minhag is “only” x number of years old.”The big difference is, That minhag Ashkenaz goes back almost unchanged to the period of the Rishonim and Chassidei Ashkenaz. It still follows the Maharil which is even older than the Rema, who the “Litvish” mesorah is based on before the Gra. The “Yekkisch Mesauroh” which is over 1,000 years old, is rivalled only by Sefardim in Syria and Persia/Iran and the Teimanim/Yemenites whose tradition is even older.
Any changes in Tefilla or hanhogos in mitzvos which were initiated by the chassidim, were mainly, if not totally, al pi sod (Kabbalistic), and were not practiced by the tzibbur at the time of the rishonim.
“The big difference is,…”
Yes I understand the difference as I noted above.
Though you highlight my point. clearly groups chnaged over the years. Chassidim is amore recent chnage than the others you mention.
Are you sayiong that when a historian uncovers wh oand when the yekish mesauroh began he cna replace it by the older one?“Any changes in Tefilla or hanhogos in mitzvos which were initiated by the chassidim, were mainly, if not totally, al pi sod (Kabbalistic), and were not practiced by the tzibbur at the time of the rishonim ”
Obviouslyand Any changes in Tefilla or hanhogos in mitzvos which were initiated by the rishonim, were not practiced by the tzibbur at the time of the geonim
and Any changes in Tefilla or hanhogos in mitzvos which were initiated by the geonim, were not practiced by the tzibbur at the time of the Amoraimetc etc
How long does a mesora have to exist before youd feel queezy about chnaging it?
I admit I’m not sure of my answer either.
Vi shteit that the Yekkesh mesorah is any older than any other Ashkenazic mesorah?
The oldest record of Ashkenazi minhagim extant is Machzor Vitry,which was compiled by Simcha ben Shmuel, apparently of Vitry-sur-Seine southeast of Paris, who was a talmid of Rashi. The Rosh says that Ashkenazi minhagim go back to the Bayit Sheini. This is probable as the Jews in the Rhineland sent their questions to the Geonim of Eretz Yisrael whereas the Jews of Spain sent theirs to the Geonim of Bavel.
BTW, the question of Sephardic minhagim today was a major disagreement between Rav Ovadia on the one hand and Rav Mordechai Eliahu and Rav Shalom Messas on the other hand. The latter insisted that the different Sephardic communities should keep their own minhagim and, in fact, Rav Eliahu paskened according to the Ben Ish Hai (he was, in fact, a descendant of the BIH’s sister).
Thank you Avi K.
Joseph, which other Ashkenazic mesorah is there? I doubt anything else goes back further than the Talmidei HaGra, which is around the time of the Baal Hatanya.Minhag Lita was around before the GRA.
How long before? What was different to minhag ashkenaz?
Ubiquitin, I never changed my mind.
In response to the OP, Joseph had said:
“Who said your father has the right to “allow” you to change from your family mesorah?”
You said:
“I think changing mesora is dangerous
I believe strongly in following the minhagim of our parents (barring extenuating circumstances). Once we start uprooting MEsora because of what is “better” even if it is in fact better due to historical factors, or new changes in society it is opening pandoraas box””
These things were said in response to the OP. The implication was that the OP was doing something terrible. That sounded extreme to me since I hadn’t thought it was such a terrible thing for someone to change his minhagim from his father’s minhagim, especially in the circumstances described by the OP.
That is what most of my posts were in response to.
I then looked back at your latest post (at that point) and saw you had written this:
“but mesora should be respected, and just disacrding it is a dangerous game.”So I commented on that point because I wanted to make it clear that no one was arguing with that. The argument was on what seemed to be a strong attack on the OP, and an implication that one is never allowed to not follow his father’s minhag, even in the OP’s case. While I don’t agree with you on that, that doesn’t mean that I think that mesorah should not be respected. I wanted to make it clear that I don’t disagree with that particular statement of yours.
It is possible that your original post was not meant as an attack on the OP per se’, and you were just making a general comment about the issue. However, coming as it did in response to the OP, it sounded to me like you were attacking what he is doing.
Perhaps that is not how you meant it, but if you reread the OP and your comment following, I think you will see that it certainly sounds like it.
L’maaseh, I don’t have a definite opinion on the topic, and I do think that there is room for more than one approach. My point was that I didn’t think the OP should be attacked or criticized for changing his minhagim, but that doesn’t mean that I disagree with your statement that Mesorah should be respected. I see no contradiction between those two statements.
“and an implication that one is never allowed to not follow his father’s minhag, even in the OP’s case.”
That is a strange conclusion to draw, as I was careful to point out that there are exceptions.
Did you think I meant if a persons father had a minhag of avoda zara he should continue following “Minhag avosihem beyedeihem”?“L’maaseh, I don’t have a definite opinion on the topic, ”
Nu, so dont comment, there is no law that says you have to comment on every thread particularly if you dont have a “defenite opinion”All I am saying is mesora should be respected and not discarded lightly.
You seem to agree. Great!
(except for this post in which you downplay keeping mesora, (though granted it is all relative)”I was surprised that the idea of changing minhagim was so controversial. …If a family has a very strong mesora, I guess that changing it would be a big deal. But I think that a lot of families don’t…” )I’m also surprised you didnt have the OP follow daas Torah which is usually one of your go to comments
“and an implication that one is never allowed to not follow his father’s minhag, even in the OP’s case.”
“That is a strange conclusion to draw, as I was careful to point out that there are exceptions.” –Since it was said in response to the OP’s comment, that is the logical conclusion. If you weren’t referring to him, you should have said so clearly. You wrote in parenthesis (barring extenuating circumstances), but you did not say that this was referring to his case. Putting in parenthesis particularly made it sound like it was NOT referring to this case, as was the term “extenuating” (
“Did you think I meant if a persons father had a minhag of avoda zara he should continue following “Minhag avosihem beyedeihem”?”
That was clearly NOT the situation here. That would be a good example of your “extenuating circumstances” which does not seem to refer to the case at hand (certainly not, if that is your example of “extenuating”).
“L’maaseh, I don’t have a definite opinion on the topic, ”
Nu, so dont comment, there is no law that says you have to comment on every thread particularly if you dont have a “defenite opinion”You are taking my words out of context. In the context in which that sentence was said, it was clear that I meant that I don’t have a definite opinion regarding when a person should or should not follow their families’ minhag. This is because I don’t think I have a right to have a definite opinion, since it is not something that is a black-and-white halacha (to the best of my knowledge).
“What I do have a definite opinion on is the fact that the OP should not be criticized for not following his father’s minhagim and that is what I commented on.
“(except for this post in which you downplay keeping mesora, (though granted it is all relative)”I was surprised that the idea of changing minhagim was so controversial. …If a family has a very strong mesora, I guess that changing it would be a big deal. But I think that a lot of families don’t…” )””
I wouldn’t call that downplaying mesorah. Again, I don’t think it’s necessarily a problem for someone to not follow their father’s mesorah, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t respect mesorah.
The fact that I think the OP should not be criticized and that I was surprised by the responses to him does not meant that I don’t respect mesorah.
“I’m also surprised you didnt have the OP follow daas Torah which is usually one of your go to comments”
Not always. I might have done so if either: a) he had been asking us if he is doing the right thing halachically, or b) I thought he was doing something assur.
Where’d my post go? All I did was add a space and a quotation mark to make it easier to read. 🙁
It’s now clocked in at over 2 hours. That’s gotta be a record for the longest time to moderate a space and a quotation mark!
Fixed it. It went to spam. That must have been a serious space and quotation mark you added
It is a problem for someone to not follow their father’s mesorah.
oh my gosh! Thanks. It’s good I posted about it. I felt bad – I just thought that the whole thing had to be remoderated and that’s why it took so long, so I felt bad posting about it, but I was getting frustrated. It’s good I said something!
Does that happen often that things go to spam? Whenever my posts don’t get posted, I’m never sure if they were deleted by the mods or if there was a technical error and they never got through in the first place. I’m not comfortable asking the mods each time. Is there any way to know?
(I thought I replied here is the gist again)
“Since it was said in response to the OP’s comment, that is the logical conclusion.”
No, the OP did not give much (any?) details .Which minhgaim? why does he beleive the “ashkenbazi” minhagim are mehudar?
I gave a very superficial, general response to a general question: Generally minhagim shouldnt be abandoned“it was clear that I meant that I don’t have a definite opinion regarding when a person should or should not follow their families’ minhag.”
that is all we are discussing, namely abandoning minhagim. IF you dont have an opinion, you dont have to comment. There is no need to say “Theres nothing wrong with abandoning minhagim, though mesora should be kept, though I dont have an opinion” (not a verbatim quote)
“This is because I don’t think I have a right to have a definite opinion, since it is not something that is a black-and-white halacha”
you have that backwards, if it was black and white halacha THEN you wouldnt have a right to an opinion, I assume youd follow halacha. Only that which is NOT black and white halacha can you have an opinion.
“Again, I don’t think it’s necessarily a problem for someone to not follow their father’s mesorah, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t respect mesorah.”
That might be the definition of not respecting mesora. (though you gave yourself the out, with “necessarily” much as I did)
And as far as halacha, you forgot to mention that depending on which minhagim, he may have to do hataras nedarim.
Look, the point is this: Generally speaking, should a person follow his family’s mesora/minhagim.
Yes or No?
(Again, As I said this isnt absolute, I am asking GENERALLY)I am one who strongly believes that one should follow his family’s minhagim. However, my son’s do not. I have heard from them “this is not what I saw in yeshiva” or “my Rosh Yeshiva does differently”. For example, I stand for Sholom Aleichem and for Kiddush Leil Shabbos. My oldest son does not. My father, maternal grandfather, and father in law all stood for havdallah; my oldest son sits.
iacisrmma,
You should tell your sons to ask their Rosh Yeshiva what they should do
What happened to Kibud Av?
iacisrmma,
There is a shift taking place in which transmission is being passed from parents to Roshei Yeshiva
As long as there is some form of mesora based on roshei yeshiva who are presumably talmidei chachamim , I think yidishekiet will survive (though I agree I dont like it either).It is people deciding on their own based on their own research that I think is dangerous. And can and has led to serious breaches.
Read Haim Soloveitchiks’ excellent “Rupture and reconstruction” for a fantastic piece on the shift taking (that has taken?) place
Meno: I have, on multiple occasions.
iacisrmma,
It is a nice problem to have, BH. Your children have gone to Yeshiva, and grown in their ruchniyus. They have seen their rebbeim up close and, seeing them as examples of a higher level of frumkeit (for lack of a better word), have wanted to take on their hanhogos. This is admirable up to a point. In your case, it is that their own mesorah is different. It is telling, that I have found that people follow family minhag very closely on Pesach. This is the one yomtov, that everybody comes home. We don’t see our Rebbeim at their Sedorim, and their hanhogos with mitzvas matzoh, for example. In Belz, if I’m not mistaken, bochurim of a certain age go to the Rebbe for leil haseder, for exactly this reason – the other way around.I have an interesting anecdote on this subject, which may help. In the Mir, I had a connection with Rav Binyomin Carlebach Shlit”a. He is a son-in-law of Rav Beinish Finkel ztzvk”l, but also happens to be the grandson of my grandfather’s rebbe in Hamburg, Germany, Rav Yosef Zvi (Jozef Hirsch) Carlebach ztzvk”l. I had occasion, at least twice, to ask him what my family’s minhag is where I had doubt. (One of the questions happened to be whether we always stand for kiddush and havdolo.)
Perhaps you could find a Rebbe in your sons’ yeshivos who is of your mesora to guide them along.
geordie613: While I know who to contact, I have taken the position that when in my house you have to follow what I do. Once married and in your own dwelling you can follow your rabbeim.
There’s a famous picture from one of the Agudah conventions that shows Rav Schwab TZATZAL sitting reciting havdallah and Rav Schwadron standing and listening.
I grew up with my father following his minhagim from his home. However, if he did not a specific minhag for something he adopted the minhag of my maternal grandfather.
Rav Soloveichik went to his wife’s grave even though Briskers do not do do. When asked he replied that he could not do otherwise.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.