Although I will admit it’s kinda egomaniac-ish, I quote what I wrote earlier in this thread:
Many here are making what I believe to be an important distinction between two very different groups within MO. There are MO who live up to MO ideals, and embody the concept of Torah u’Maddah, whether you hate it or love it. Then there the self-identifying MO who would probably be more accurately classified as Orthodox-lite: those would like to get away with as much as they can while (in their own minds) staying just within the confides of authentic Judaism. The differences between these groups is most obvious when one compares their fealty to Halacha; the first group will usually keep it scrupulously (although not most of the stringencies that those on the right keep), while the second will often times just ignore it.
So while there are indeed some who use the “modern” label to explain why they are not shomer negaih, dress modestly, etc, the self-identifying MO who actually live up to MO ideals would never dream of doing such a thing.
yekke2:
This is a far cry from simply “integrating” with the goyim. What I’d really like to know is whether the allowing TVs, Movies, unfiltered internet etc. is something they feel is right, or if it is a sad repercussion of their lifestyle?
Yesh vi’yesh. But I think it’s fair to say that there are these who do keep halacha, and yet do believe that there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of this stuff.
I really don’t like writing against Gedoilei Yisroel, so before I say something stupid can somebody please show me a Mareh Mokom of any of the Rabbis who support learning ????? ???????? without necessity?
I quote from the aforementioned essay of R’ Aharon Lichtenstein:
Seems kinda strange to me, and I don’t believe that there are too many Rabbonim who hold like this, but he certainly did say it.
#PehKaddoshEichYomarDavarZeh
(BTW, there is a summary of that essay written by the CR’s very own PBA: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rav-lichtensteins-centrist-orthodoxy-by-gaw)
“However, there is another distinction as well (besides attitudes towards chumros, which I mentioned above): The question of balancing one’s obligation to support one’s family and one’s obligation to learn Torah. Chareidim will usually try to stay in learning for as long as possible, even if that means supported by their parents/parents-in-laws, wife, or government programs. MO tend to focus on earning a livelihood starting from shortly after high school.”
Again – is this the hashkafah or it’s unpleasant manifestation? In the Chareidi world, great value is put on Torah. Could it be that less people stay in learning and go to work before they need to because there is less appreciation of Torah in those circles? Perhaps because too much emphasis is placed on things that contradict Torah lifestyle?
Again, yesh vi’yesh. But here I think the split is clearer; the MO who believe in and live up to the MO ideals learn less only because they believe in working more. The MO who are just looking for an easier life learn less because they are just less interested.