Attacking and spitting on a child is wrong, wrong wrong. We are meant to be a light onto the nations, and not in the headlines of the New York Times for such unbelievably appalling behavior.
Just as not every white person is a member of the Ku Klux Klan, not every Charedi is guilty by association for the despicable acts of a few. It’s somehow become that the seeming silence is being mistaken for agreement with a small but vocal minority. It is not.
While we are only human, one of the main things that religious Jews strive for is to make a Kiddush Hashem- To sanctify the name of G-d by doing the right thing.
This is Israel, a Jewish democracy. Israel is not Iran. We have our beliefs which we believe to be correct. However, it goes without saying that we respect others who choose to live life differently.
Knowing I am sometimes quoted in the media for my business expertise, I was asked if I would be willing to appear on CNN to give the Charedi view about “segregated bussing”. I declined. I have no interest in starting up with a bunch of hooligans, who are have decided that the laws of the Torah as the leading rabbis understand it is not enough, and taking matters into their own hands. Even if we share the same dress code!
When I get on a plane, I try my best not to sit next to a woman who is not a family member. And, in business, I don’t shake hands with women either. I always do my best to be gracious and explain that it is a religious issue for me, and have sometimes stood or given up a choice seat for a worse one in order to have my religious needs accommodated.
Most of us don’t read secular media at all. The seemingly muted response should not be seen as agreement, but rather as taking in a different medium within the Charedi world itself.
I am not the spokesmen for Charedi Jewry- but I am a member of that segment of society, and proudly so. That said- this turn of events does not represent me, nor 99.9% of the people I know.
Rabbi Issamar Ginzberg – is a business consultant and Jerusalem Post columnist. He is an awardee of the Inc. Magazine entrepreneur of the year designation.
NOTE: The views expressed here are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent or reflect the views of YWN.
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31 Responses
Well the tough part in voicing a Macha’ah is that you don’t want to side with Tzipi Livni either, or Hillary Clinton…
The problem is that in the essense of the dispute the “extremists” are really right. The city had no right to build the school there. They are also right that in their own area they have the right to make rules where ladies can walk and where not. The original agreement was that they have their designated area to be as extreme as they want to be.
They are so stupid that they’re hurting themselves by using violance. Of course it’s totally wronge and should be prosecuted to the fullest extant.
But let’s not go the extra mile to say there’s no point in having women sitting in the back. We, as frum men who have experienced the suving on those busses, know in our heart of hearts that on a voluntary basis it would be great to have such a set-up.
As long as there is no clarification or protest from our Gedolim the kanoyum will continue to set the agenda.
They are not right. The city can do what it wants to. There is no reason why the school cannot be there. what they are inferior to the Chareidim? They are not human beings, they are not Shomer Shabbas fine Yidden.
Women to the back if it’s a private bus I will grant you but not on a public bus sorry.
You don’t have the rights to that.
You can ask and petition for it but not in a free society with laws and rights for all.
MD you are also part of the problem albeit not the violent side but the side that the rest of us have to put up with this holier than thou attitude that is false Judaism.
I agree with the writer of this piece and I agree with #3 above. Shkoyach. This is the emes, but that’s not enough. We have to project to all that it is the emes and that we do not agree with and must not be lumped together with these hooligans.
The underlying issue is that Hiloni Israeli and Jewish (not just Hareidi) societes are moving apart and becoming two distinct peoples, and the Modern Orthodox/Religious Zionists are discovering that they can’t be part of the Hiloni world they aspired to unless they give up Torah in its entirely, which they aren’t willing to do. Two distinct and separate peoples are being born, and this idiocy is part of the birth pangs. It too will pass, but when it has passed the frum community (hareidi and “modern”) will be one community, and the Hilonim (in both Eretz Yisrael and elsewhere) will be seen as a non-Jewish population which split off from Klal Yisrael (similar to how the Christians are today regarded, even though the original Christians were almost all Yidden).
Of course is it disgusting and ourageous behavior to spit at a girl and most definitely not the darchei noam of the Torah. But it is also outrageous that an individual’s action against one child is made into a major international news item. Must we publicly protest every individual’s aveira? My son was thrown off his bike by chiloni kids years ago. He did absolutely nothing to instigate – he was simply passing by, not much different than the shkotzim of my youth starting up with me or my siblings every now and then for nothing. These items never made the headlines or even the inside pages in small print. And what about the Boro Park/Williamburg, Boro Park/Lakewood, Boro Park/Manhattan and Boro Park/Monsey busses with separate seating? Why are they not making headlines for three weeks running?! Excluding women is big time news in Israel with no end in sight! This is a political game. The tragedy is that extremist chareidi “vilde chayos” play into the hands of these leftist self-hating Jews and cause such a terrible chillul Hashem.
Please contact the Agudah at 212-797-9000 and respectfuly ask that they clarify their position and issue a formal “kol koreh” issued by the Moetzes to protest against this type behaviour.
MDshweks, no one is above the law. The city had every right to build the school there. In fact the city had every right to sieze a chareidi schul and use the land to build a secular school smack dab in the center of the chareidi neighborhood, if it deemed so fit. Had the city done that, the chareidim, as citizens, would be obligated to respect the decision and do NOTHING to harm anyone in that school. Any protests or challenges to such a decision must be made in a LAWFUL manner. That is the meaning of force of law. I for one was very disappointed by yesterday’s protest. Why did the olam haChareidi not participate and show some empathy for their fellow Jews? Oh yeah, it’s because most of them think like MDshweks; that the rule of law does not apply to Chareidim.
Adams, chareidim DID try to run private bus lines with separate seating to accommodate the crowd that chooses to sit separately, but the goverment did not allow it!! Of course, Egged was the loudest of the protesters against private mehadrin bus lines which is when, as a purely business decision, Egged then offered the chareidi public mehadrin lines.
As far as the city apportioning lots to various populations, yes they can choose among the different groups. But if you promise it to one group and renege, you set yourself up for a lot of anger. That is no excuse for violence, but does explain the anger. Also, considering the heightened sensitivities of some groups to their standard of tznius, it is wiser to keep a distance between the camps for the sake of shalom and find a different location for a girls’ school where some of them dress in ways deemed immodest by the other camp (scooped necks, tighter tops, shorter and tighter skirts, no socks in the summer). I am not saying they are out-of-the-camp Jews to put in cheirim, but I am suggesting that it would be smarter to place their school not in the backyard of a Neturei Karta-type crowd if you care about keeping the peace. If you don’t mind action, then go ahead and do as was done in Beit Shemesh. I am not justifying the actions – just saying that it was a provocative step, asking for trouble.
@MDshweks #1
Last I checked, Beit Shemesh belongs to the municipality, not the Sikrikim. Nobody has any “right” (a word that doesn’t even exist in Loshon HaKodesh) to do anything anywhere without the permission of the government. And the government can put up school wherever and for whom ever they want. The is no dispute and any attempt to view it as such is just lending credence to the mishugoyim.
Bet Shemesh was not allocated to any groupng. When I went to the building site 15 years ago the builder said, what do you want here, the chareidi area is near the water tower. But anyone with the money could buy anywhere, so the water tower area became a centre for Russian immigrants and Ramat Bet Shemesh became 90% frum. There are still chilonim living there. There was even a sign outside an apartment reading ‘ kef lihyot chiloni bramat beit shemeh’. The community was big hearted enough to live side by side with others. many chilonim became religious through contact with fine Torah observant jews.
This ideal was shattered when the suoer chareidi Rav Hashechuna interrupted a family day, where many parents and children were enjoying the wonderful park and fresh air of beit Shemesh. He snatched the microphone from a band leader and told evryone to go home. End of Sholom, begining of war.
Ramat beit shemesh beit was a mixed bag too, until the uncouth sicrisim caused the other groups to move away in disgust. The prices there are lower than in aleph because no civilised jew wants such neighbors.
Drocheyo Darchei Noam, vchol nsivoseho sholom
I see a lot of Americans who don’t understand how things work in Israel.
Check again. There was AN AGREEMENT when they buiklt the city. Period. In America there arn’t much cities like that, but in Israel you have many neighborhoods that are totally frum from the very begining, with that agreement with the city.
I NEVER AGREED WITH VIOLANCE, and I spacifically wrote they should be prosecuted to the fullest extant of the law. I just said that when you make your Macha’ah be sure to address only the violance issue. Be sure not to totally stand on the side of Hillary Clinton.
There’s nothing wrong to kindly ask women to go to the back, and to create an enviroment that that’s what’s expected and requested. Once the woman refuses, however, you are TO KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT and be polite about it.
In your own neigborhood, like in Monsey or Lakewood, Rabbonim can set a standart what their Tznius level should be, till when can Pizza shops be open, etc. etc. That was a Rav’s job in every community for generations. The problem is JUST when they start using force.
But that’s not what you hear from a lot of frum people these days. They take the other extreme and say THERE’S NO POINT AT ALL in exra Tznius, and if it isn’t in the Shulchan Aruch you’re a fool for doing it. And that’s just wrong.
I happen to know for a fact that there ARE chareidi rabanim in Ramat Beit Shemesh who are very opposed to the thuggish behavior of this group, but are, frankly, afraid to speak out against them.
What is needed is for the really big name gedolim in the charedi world to issue a Kol Korai with all their names on it strongly condemning this disgusting behavior and demanding an immediate stop to it.
What these m’chalalai HaSh-m are too foolish to realize is, that in addition to the horrible chilul HaSh-m they are creating, they are also ‘shooting themselves in the foot’ financially.
The majority of these people do not work and are living off the good working people of the city. This is both in the area of municipal public assistance AND door to door shnorring. It is very hard for small towns to support a large percentage of those who do not work, and that is why many small cities, like Beit Shemesh, have to limit the size of the chareidi population they can accept. It is not a matter of being anti-chareidi, it’s simply that they can not afford such a large population of unemployed residents.
This new negative sentiment however, which these chareidim have brought upon themselves, will undoubtedly have an affect when city councils are meeting to make demographic decisions for the construction of new neighborhoods, AND it will definitely affect the response of the Torani L’eumi population when the chareidim who were spitting on their daughters yesterday, come knocking on their doors for tzedaka tomorrow!
We must unite in a big campagn to explain the Torah’s view, and to call upon Police to prosecute these wrong doers. Explain how spitting at a little girl is a major Aveirah, like eating pork… etc.
and at the same time, explain that Tznius isn’t a black and white issue, and the Torahs way of life is trully the best for a woman as well.
[PS – Don’t forget that originally the “Mehadrin” bus was going to be a private company, but Egged refused for fear of compitition, and offered to give their own busses instead, and that’s what caused all the trouble…]
Thanks rabbi Ginzburg for correct and smart article.
However,even though frum yidden have to keep themselves on a higher level that a non observant, and has to obey torah umitzvos bein odom lachaveiro as well as bein odom lamokom, but there must also be some voice or hand to stop the chiloni/secular neighbors from teasing hurting and instigating their frum neighbors, they live far enough they should mind their own business, and stop forcing their freya lifestyle upon the frum yidden, it is unimaginable what those chilonim are doing and how they are treating their charedi neughbors, scandelous!!
And this was way before a “single handed person” may have spat a kid, which is wrong and wrong!
the frum were spat at very many times before this incident, but it never made its way to the charedi hating media.
Just today a popular secularist spat at a tiny 4 year old girl!! I didn’t hear any protest, people are ok with a secular hurting a charedi, but when one stupid charedi spits at a mo or secular kid, woe, what an uproar, what a hype!
All people who defend the the ones that dress immodestly in the holy land. Should know that they are the cause of allot of problems there. As the cumash says parshes achray
יח, כח – ולא תקיא הארץ אתכם בטמאכם אתה כאשר קאה את הגוי
אשר לפניכם
see rashi.
And all the sheep ran to wash their hands!
What is a true Hillul H’, is everyone running to denounce, and making long winded condescending speaches.
People who have read 4 minutes of an article. People who do not have kops.
We have been told by secular media that an 8 year old girl wasspit on. The religious sites have no investigative skills of their own, and pass on the same. Every gets up in arms, and paces and furrows their brows. But does anyone know it happened, or the girl is really 8 and didnt do anything like mouth off or moon the crowd or something> I can almost guarantee, that it is not like they say. The other side of the Beit Shemesh school battle, have the luxury of not having a name or a face, and have an anti-haredi media ready to rush to their side as this serves their purposes. Do not believe that the other side, is not starting up and making problems. Dont believe that for a minute.
“There’s nothing wrong to kindly ask women to go to the back,”
What would happen if someone proposed the men went to the back and the women sat in the front?
We bought in RBS Bet at the very beginning before the chassidishe kehilla moved in…..and consider ourselves very Orthodox. Months later our (very tzinusdik) daughters were booed and cursed in the streets with cat-calls of ‘zonah’ and ‘prostitute’ for wearing long length skirts (socks on their feet)and colored tops. Our Shabbosos were the opposite of restful and peaceful because of the 24-hr long screams of “Shabbos” at traffic which inadvertently passed through, with bricks flying and trash cans overturned. We moved several months later to RBS Aleph to a wonderful warm ‘mixed’ community.
These chareidim in ‘Bet’severely lack any sort of leadership with backbone or strength. Hashem Yerachem.
19, Then I would tell him that he’s entitled to his opinion, but he can’t claim it’s the Torah way.
See Eruvin 18:b
תלמוד בבלי מסכת עירובין דף יח/ב
אמר רב נחמן מנוח עם הארץ היה, שנאמר ויקם וילך מנוח אחרי אשתו… אפילו בי רב נמי לא קרא דכתיב ותקם רבקה ונערותיה ותרכבנה על הגמלים ותלכנה אחרי האיש, ולא לפני האיש. אמר רבי יוחנן אחרי ארי ולא אחרי אשה…
So how do you know Rivka was cooerced, she did this on her own. Then according to this we should have everyone living like Avrohom Avinu, but that is the point, for Avrohom this was his way of life, he didn’t force and bully his ideas on other people.
And if you are comparing yourself to the Avos, would Avrohom Aveinu curse and yell like they do?
MDschweks and others:
Your facts are all wrong and ‘honest reporting’ is from accurate when viewed in a skewed manner by certain papers or people.
HISTORY OF BET SHEMESH: Over 20 years ago, Bet Shemesh was a sleepy, unexciting, immigrant city of secular and traditional Jews, the majority of Sephardic origin. Over 18 years ago, two groups arrived to settle in Bet Shemish, a chassidish group that lives in a community, Menuchah V’Simchah and a National Religious/Chardal group which built up the communities of Ramat Saviyon and Sheinfeld. (these neighborhoods border on each other) The three groups of residents (secular/traditional, National Religious and Chassidish) got along peacefully and benefited from each others services. Taxis, Parks, Pizza Shops, Groceries and take-out food eateries were shared and enjoyed. The mix of people were a bit spicy yet peace reigned nevertheless.
And then the Ramat Bet Shemesh ALeph and Bet were built, with a mix of religious and charedei families. There was some tension yet once again most disagreements were ironed out and life went on. Then CHEAP HOUSING right on the border of Sheinfeld (the first and former neighborhood of National Religious residents, mostly olim and Anglo) was built and arrived the Meah Shearim ‘dissatisified kehilla’. They were promised nothing except reasonable housing….if they want to live in an isolated community move to a GATED COMMUNITY where there is a GUARD who will allow only members to enter.
#6 lader –
It is not an issue of one little girl getting spit on. The charadim have been spitting, name calling and other harassments for many years now. It part of their intimidation and the their head rabbanim knows about and basically allow it because it gets what they want, to chase everyone out who doesn’t conform, drive the real estate down and take over another neighborhood!!!
Beit Shemesh was built in the 50’s the Charadim didn’t start to move into the area until the mid 90’s. Everyone should be respectful of everyone and not impose made up chumrot on others that don’t want to follow.
The Charadim Rabbanim, Charadim community leaders and Charadim MKs needs to strongly condem the actions of the Sikrikim/zealots and send a 10,000 Charadim to counter protest.
I want to start by stating that I think these thugs should be stopped and that it is unacceptable that for months on end they have been allowed to use methods of intimidation against anyone, particularly little girls. This is not free speech, it is thuggery and it should have been treated as such long ago.
With that said, I think that the Daati Leumi community should not have exposed their kids to this.
I know that they felt that they needed to put their foot down and say enough-is-enough in terms of the demands of these extremists that border their neighborhood. I even sympathize with that point of view.
Nonetheless, I think they should have done so in a different way. They should not have made 6, 7 and 8 year old girls the foot soldiers in their battle. Build a shul and let the adults take the taunts and intimidation, let them walk through the crowd and deal with the protests while their kids stay safe at home sheltered from this daily abuse.
In life it’s not enough to be right, one has to also be smart and above all a protective parent.
zionflag: the original chareidi-Yerushalmi (not necessarily Chassidish) community in Beit Shemesh was (and still is) called Nachala uMenucha.
“There was some tension yet once again most disagreements were ironed out and life went on. Then CHEAP HOUSING right on the border of Sheinfeld (the first and former neighborhood of National Religious residents, mostly olim and Anglo) was built and arrived the Meah Shearim ‘dissatisified kehilla’. They were promised nothing except reasonable housing…”
Sadly, even if a few of the troublemakers are sent to jail, it will do little to change the basic tensions.
On the other hand if the “cheap housing” were curtailed or shut down as a consequence, then suddenly they might discover drecheha darche noam.
MD said..
In your own neigborhood, like in Monsey or Lakewood, Rabbonim can set a standart what their Tznius level should be, till when can Pizza shops be open, etc. etc. That was a Rav’s job in every community for generations. The problem is JUST when they start using force.
THE PROBLEM is that your rav isn’t my rav. your rav and my rav may disagree as to what should be a halachick level of tznius. THEN, you can’t force me to follow YOUR rav.
AND without any one rav in the neighborhood (and the rav of the city basically a political appointment) your method of living will quickly break down into anarchy and into what we see today in RBS
What about attacking racism in the charedi community; what about issuing a kol koreh to treat other people like human beings and not like animals. My brother who made aliyah 3 years ago and lives in beit shemesh and is charedi was told point blank by many yeshivas that they dont take sepharadim. Maybe the mashiach hasn’t come not because of the internet or filtering water from some bugs or sheitelim from India maybe bein adam l’chaveiro is so lacking amongst the frumma velt that hashem is disgusted! I have taught in charedi yeshivas and let me tell you the racism that pervades there is shocking; this goyish attitude of racial and cultural supremacy has corrupted the yiddishe people and the gedolim are doing nothing to stop it; i think its because they know people won’t listen Instead of defending rashaim who demand to seperate their children from other Jews because they look different(even if they have the same exact hashkafa, my brother has no tv internet learns all day so no excuse of not having the same standards its just that his kids are dark)Its time to put any Jew who attacks other jews in such a violent manner and causes a chilul hashem into cheirem furthermore and most importantly let us resolve to use proactive approaches in chinuch to hashem forbid teach DIVERSITY in the frumma velt, believe me its no aveirah to teach our children to love and RESPECT other yidden. Only then can be prostrate ourselves before our creator and beg for our salvation.
Rabosai!!
We must NOT get carried away by all the ‘bloff’ of the media and MUST seek the truth and focus on the sad but TRUE reality.
Firstly, As a long time resident of Beit Shemesh, and I am not at all connected to any ‘extremest’ or ‘action seekers’, and infact have not participated in ANY ‘hafganot’ in all my time here, I would like to state VERY clearly; This entire campaign against ‘gender segregation’ has absolutely nothing to do with the charedi public of BS or any other part of EY, it is entirely a ‘political propoganda gimic’ to gain some popularity amongst the public!!!
Secondly, there is a general sense of fear and trepidation amongst all secular Jews (and yes, even dati/leumi Jews)here in EY, that they are ‘petrified’ from the rapid natural growth of the charedi sector, the census give another decade or so that the population in EY will be majority charedi(B”H and K”Y), The amazing success of the ‘teshuva movement’ causing many secular Jews to join the Torah way of life and naturally becoming charedi Jews, they OBVIOUSLY feel threatend and overpowered by them. There is nothing that “we charedi Jews” can do about this ‘problem’ of theirs. However, as a result of this, they tend to find every oppurtunity to ‘blacken’ the name of charedi Jews in the secular media and try their luck in strengthening their existence- but to no avail, they seem to become less and less, with their birthrates dropping, devorce rates rising, and tose doing ‘yeridah’ leaving the country. Fact is, that any incident that may have happened or not amongst the charedi sector – hits a great scoop in the secular media, gains them a great ‘rating’ the articles are published and televission screens them way before checking up on all the details to make sure the entire story till it’s finest details actually happened and is authentic. This is a sad fact – but the reality!!
Thirdly, Yes, I agree that we do have ‘issues’ with exteremsts and minute groups of ‘hot headers’ who often out of boredom are looking for action and demonstrate for any reason under the sun, yes, they are to be condemed for their radical behaviour at times, and ofcourse are not acting as authentic Torah Jews should and sadly cause a great chillul Hashem. But we MUST defrinciate each case and take things in the right respectives, and in this case of ‘gender segregation’, there was no particular instance that set this off, it is entirely as mentioned a combination, political and chiloni propoganda. We as Jews are entiteled to live in EY, and in our neibourghoods as we wish, charedi Jews in their neibourghoods are entiteled to strengthen their adherence to the laws of tzenius and to request of the secular public passing through – to dress accordingly and be sensitive to the needs of the local residents, NO-ONE has ever gone into a secular neighbourhood and tried to coerce them to keep kosher, shabbos, and tzenius etc.., they have NO right (even according to laws of democracy) to enforce their views in our enclosed neighborhoods.
When TV reporters would enter your private home or school or even an enclosed strictly charedi neighbourhood without being invited, they are looking and asking for trouble. This would be the exact same reaction if a group of charedi reporters turned up in a secular neighborhood without being invited.
Rabosai, Please study and get a full and deep understanding of the ENTIRE picture before commenting or condeming an entire comunity or anybody for that matter.
Reporters are usually around to report-with or without invitations. Your points are not accurate. One can not enforce a dress code on any public street. If you are part of a city that gets municipal funding-then any city resident can walk on that street-it is not a private gated community. (In the Kiryah there are chiloni cleaning ladies wearing pants that work in frum homes there. There are also quite a few goyishe Filipinos dressed non tzniusdik that work there). Your point is clearly defending the charedim. We all get it. You did not mention all the charedim that drove out the chilonim living in RBS. There were all kinds of not Torah-dik harrassment that caused many of them to leave and this was before the sikrikim even arrived on the scene. There is plenty of dirt on both sides of the fence here and charedim as well as others involved have not been behaving in any way that could constitute Torah. Please also tell of all of the religious harrassment that was given to mikveh goers by the chareidim-women who were actually GOING to mikveh for a holy purpose-who suffered humiliation and harrassment by charedim. There is a lot of WELL DESERVED animosity towards the holier than thou charedim-which is agreeably not all inclusive of all charedim. The charedim are doing a fabulous job blackening their own name. Ask any beis din, there are charedi divorces everyday, RL. Ask all the at risk programs for teens, from which types of homes are these kids going off the derech? Shidduch crisis does not exist? Hsve you been looking around lately and noticed so many unmarried charedi singles? I have a suggestion for you-get real. Talk to some chilonim-they have only words of praise for ZAKA, Hatzoloh, Yad Ezra, Breslov, Chabad. Who are they angry at? People who call themselves charedim and act as if they are superior and holier than everyone else and all acts are justified in the name of Torah and Kedusha.