Joseph, great post. Before I respond, I must point out that your chosen name, “Joseph”, is something that Reb Moshe says should be protested. So please allow me to do so. Jothar is clearly a kinui and not an adoption of a goyishe name.
Please allow me to sum up your shita. Ivrit is totally not holy, Yiddish is holy, English is not holy.
1. I am not “modeh” that Jews last used Lashon hakodesh prior to the churban bayis rishon. It’s not a modeh bemiktzas, it’s a heilech. I never argued that point. I just argued on a point I believe you made from a Chassam sofer that they spoke Aramaic even before churban bayis rishon.
2. I’m not a Zionist. Ben-Yehuda’s Ivrit has many words that a Ben torah does not say. So does Yiddish. The honest, objective fact remains that ivrit is closer to Lashon Hatorah and Lashon chachomim than Yiddish, which is Germanic in nature. If I would open up an Avi Ezri, the language I would be reading bears a much more striking resemblance to Ivrit Yiddish. Just change the havara and drop the treif words introduced by the rasha mefursam. If ivrit is treif, lashon hakodesh is holy. At the time of its first adoption in Eretz yisroel, it was the language of haskalah and one was obligated to protest. Once it’s an accepted tongue, it loses its associations with tumah. Yiddish was once a “new” secular language too. In fact, right now, a google search on teaching Yiddish reveals that this is heavily pushed by secularists, who hope to use yiddish to replace genuine Judaism.
3. The posted Igros Moshe from Even Ha’ezer 3, siman 35 quite clearly says Yiddish is lashon Ashkenaz, a lashon chol. Ie, not holy. Rav Dovid cohgen’s sefer said it’s holy based on the gemara phrases used. Yeshivish English has the same maalah. I have heard and read the other Igros Moshe I quoted to you, that it’s better to teach in a language kids understand than Yiddish, but I can’t find it right now. It was quoted in the Jewish observer in the last 6 months, so anyone with a collection can find it. I am continuing my efforts to quote you the exact siman.I have heard it and seen it quoted enough times to know that it’s emes.
3. Both the Igros Moshe which I quoted with the exact source and the “mystery” well-known Igros Moshe clearly state no Yiddish romanticism on the part of Reb Moshe ZT”L. Feif Un’s relative and my anonymous Rebbe Muvhak ZT”L agree. I am not opposed to Yiddish, and I do have a basic grasp of it. not enough to read the secular yiddish books available online, but enough to puzzle out shiurim in Yiddish. It’s a fine language. So is English. I’m opposed to Yididshism, the conflation of speaking “lashon Ashkenaz” (Reb Moshe’s words) with an actual mitzvah., and the absurd idea that this mitzvah overrides the mitzvah for kids to actually understand what they’re learning. It’s mefursam in shas an poskim that the only language one is yotzei in without havana is Lashon Hakodesh. No other language has this maalah. So even without Reb Moshe ZT”L, it’s pashut ubarrur. I highly doubt Rav Shach ZT”L meant to contradict this halacha, and I highly doubt Rav Shach would say this at a time when it’s difficult enough for kids to develop a proper love of torah without being confused by an “amaleikishe lashon” with no intrinsic kedusha. This “mitzvah” of yiddish is not in shas, it’s not in shulachan aruch, it’s not in nosei keilim. Ergo, it doesn’t exist. This is the biggest mekor to my view- if it was a mitzvah, it would be mentioned somewhere in Shas or poskim. Its non-existence is the biggest proof it’s not a mitzvah. And if there is an inyan to speak it, as you claim, it surely doesn’t override Chanoch lenaar al pi darko, even without my exact source for Reb Moshe ZT”L. That said, I will get it, lemaan ha’emes. YOUR only mekor is a svara denafshach and a mystery quote from Rav Shach ZT”L. If it’s not in shas or poskim, it’s not a mitzvah. It’s a reshus, and it doesn’t override the mitzvah of velimadtem. My opposition to Yiddishism stems from both my Rebbe Muvhak ZT”L and Reb Moshe ZT”L. It’s based on Torah, not a personal negiah.
4. You make a very valid point of the tumah caused to Lashon Hakodesh by the secular Zionists.No argument here.
5. Where in the Kuzari is this? I would like to look it up. This poiint has been debated by various rishonim and acharonim (see the Maharsh”a on Sanhedrin 21b, on why the Jews chose Lashon Hakodesh over Aramaic), and one more viewpoint couldn’t hurt.
6. English with Jewish terms is the same thing as German with Jewish terms. The secular Yiddishists have also elevated Yiddish to a mitzvah at the expense of genuine mitzvos. As you feel this mitzvah overrides chanoch lenaar al pi darko,havana in learning and other mitzvos, “ma bein eilu le’eilu”? As you are a shomer torah umitzvos, I assume your answer is that it doesn’t affect it. My experiences and the view of Reb Moshe ZT”L say otherwise.
7. Ivrit is no mitzvah. Lashon Hakodesh IS a mitzvah, as the Sifri says. Reb Moshe ZT”L points out that Jews always spoke the local galus lashon, Yiddish being lashon ashkenaz. Ask a goy to read this thread. He’ll say “that’s not English!” It’s yeshivish. The local language given a Jewish twist.
8. Not familiar with Lev HaIvri. I do see that he was niftar in 1922. The chazon Ish was opposed to teaching children in Ivrit back then too. Later on, he changed, as it was the language children spoke. Chanoch lenaar al pi darko means teaching children in their own language. Statements by Gedolim aren’t said in a vacuum. They’re based on facts on the ground. If the facts change, then the psak is no longer relevant.
9. My a relative’s wedding in France, they used lashon hakodesh as a way to break the communications barrier. It can be done.
10. As previously stated, there IS a mitzvah to speak lashon hakodesh, but klal yisroel wasn’t nizhar in it.
11. I’ll just take your quote, since you said it best:
“…there is a Mitzvah to understand your learning as best as you can, it was deemed by Klal Yisroel better to use foregn language – or at least a combination of Loshon HaKodesh and foreign language, which is really what is needed to get a complex Torah idea across.”
Bingo. Sfasayim yishak. A mitzvah to understand what you are learning. Exactly why Reb Moshe ZT”L felt you teach kids in English instead of lashon ashkenaz.
12. Very true. The orginal secular Zionists were trying to replace the “galus yid” with their nation like all nations. Hebrew was part of their secular culture. Now that it’s a fait accompli in Israel, ivrit is no longer treif, just like names like Berel and Anshel are no longer treif.
Ad kan, although I will hunt down for you the Igros Moshe that agrees with you as far as chinuch goes. I have already quoted the igros that says Yiddish=English- Even Ha’ezer 3, siman 35. Fascinating read, and at the end he explains how Yehuda ‘Leon’is no different from Yehuda Leib.
One final milsa debidichusa- a true story I heard from a friend of mine. When the Jewish immigrants came over from Europe years ago, they went to public school. Some yiddish-speaking immigrants were in a class learning Spanish. They were learning how to say “here is a table” in Spanish- “aqui es una mesa”. what they ended up hearing is “a ki ess un a messer”- a cow eats without a knife. Hilarity ensued, and the poor Spanish teacher was wondering why all the Jewish kids were giggling and laughing.