The following are the two demonstrations taking place in Manhattan on Monday: The first rally is taking place at Dag Hammarskjold Plaza (across from the United Nations) at 12 noon, rain or shine; 2nd Avenue at 47th Street. The second protest will be held at Columbia University: W 116th street and Broadway (across from Lerner Hall) 1:00PM – 3:00PM. Expect major traffic delays in Manhattan.
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51 Responses
I hope that most of us have concerns beyond our daled amos and show up for at least one demonstration. Tens of thousands of yidden work in Manhattan. Can’t we spend an hour for something worthwhile?
sane-
it is only sane if you get hadracha from da’as Torah telling you this is the right thing to do. I’m not so sure you and I should be deciding whether this is a worthwhile thing to do within our hours.
i will be there soon.
i would note, that before the “hitnatkut” from gaza, only a shamefully small number of yidden would come to the several rallys for the toshvei aza. if not for the lubavitchers (i must give credit wherte credit is due, and they did not “prosletize”, they did not do a “yechi” or otherwise) who came, it would have been a real chillul hashem!
I am just wondering why Agudath Israel of America didn’t make announcement for people to go this time. They participated last time.
I’ll be driving from my work in roslyn new york and trying to get to Columbia !!
Hope to see the oilam there…
And I was at many rally’s before the expulsion from Gaza, and it was pitiful how few people were there.
Dvorah, Your making choizek of Yidden going to Daas Torah for all aspects of their lives, is despicable.
sure!!! let us demonstrate against this rosho. But let us not forget , if we get him angry, he has 20000 jewish hostages in iran at his mercy, to whom he can vent his anger!!!!.
Well, I was at the demostration at the UN and, sadly, the fruma community was not there. It was basically a modern orthodox crowd. I cannot understand why the frum chreidi community has such apathy. The hadracha excuse, is simply just that, an excuse. You are entitled to use common sense. Chochom einav berosho!
Anyway, did anyone using the hadracha excuse (Groise) actually ask their Rov if they can or should go? I would venture to say none of those who stayed away did so on advice of their Rov. People did not show because protesting the most notorious and dangerous anti semite of our generation apparently was not an important enough reason to intrude upon their daily routines.
I agree with grose. If there was a gadol who oked this protest than many people would have gone. Since no Rav came out saying anything, I beleive the best thing to do is to lay low.
If the gedolim said that we should go, I’d be there in a heartbeat,b”n. However, all too often these demonstartions are just photo ops for some politicians to score points with their constituients and to make the Abe Foxmans of the Jewish world feel worthwhile. I’m not questioning the sincerity or the motives of all those that attended, but don’t be critical of those that don’t attend without the hadracha of gedolei torah.
No sane, there is a Virginia. The truth is that frum Yidden didn’t waste their time protesting this is because there are far more productive things to do with ones time i.e. limudei Torah or earning a parnassah and supporting Torah.
Nothing productive is accomplished by wasting ones time at this protest.
Let’s use this formum to discuss in a respectful manner what exactly is the purpose of protesting and does it have any really effect.
Maybe people don’t go because deep down inside they think that standing around listening to politicians and and holding signs does nothing.
Is the Rasha y’sh going to change his beliefs ?-no
Are U.N. leaders going to change their beliefs ?-no.
So what’s the point.
If you protest a Rasha does that make him go away ? Do Americans actually think he is a good guy and we need to inform them that he is bad ?
BUT I am open to hearing that they actually do change things. Can someone explain to me HOW protests change things. I am more than willing to listen. Really
Yidel:
Did you ask your Rov if you should go? Of course not! You did not go because you simply did not care enough. If you did care, you would have asked. Since you obviously did not care eough to ask a Rov,, then you have no right to tell people to seek Daas Torah on the subject.
By the way, all those chareidi families managing to shclep their kneina hora, large families on Chol Hamoed trips to the Bronx Zoo, the Circus, the Auarium, the Amusment Park, Amish Country, Hershey Park, did they all get Hadracha to engage in such activities? If they all had the time and enregy to go and have fun, why couldn’t they all go to the demonstration?
SANE – glad you got some sanity.
Unfortunely activism in the frum community towards national events of concern is about 0%. You will get a packed street for mitzetza bpah, autopsies, reduction of vochers for yeshivas,etc.
but national events, no way hoseo!!!
The prior generation knew the importance of rallies, Washington shook with rabbanim and roshei yeshivas protesting ARAB TERROR in the late 1990’s. All those who work or study in Manhattan could have had a quick lunch or snack while showing you care for the PEOPLE of the WORLD.
Perhaps due to the FILTHY PRETZIUS that was witnessed last year – by myself and everyone else, it is 100% Assur to be there?
How about that for an answer? Eh?
Sane, about a week ago there was a gathering for thousands of children to say tehilim together. Over the years Agudah and other orginizations have arranged mass yom teffilos on behalf of klal yisroel. If you want to play the “who is better than you card” when was the last time any modern orthodox orginization gathered tens of thousands of its people for a mass yom teffilah in the USA ?
I see it like this, the modern orthodox communities prefer to display their feelings and anger in a form of protest in public and the orthodox resort to davening to hashem. I think the latter ultimately has a stronger effect.
I completely concur with mikedrezz. If there is a mass Tehilim assembly, count me in. But to waste ones time at a political rally, pro or con, is a complete Bitul Zman.
Just for the record – I called the Agudath Israel office this morning to ask if they where supporing the U.N. demonstration. They told me that me that they were not oppossed to it, but they had not been not invited to participate by the organizers.
Sane, couldn’t have said it better myself.
Z:
Your query is thoughtful. I will explain to you why a show of numbers is important. Politicians, both local and nationally, look to see how many people attend these demonstrations and vote accordingly. If no one shows up, then why should any politican care about our interests? I have personal knowledge that when a leading member of the Agudah had discussion about issues important to us with an influential Sentaro, the first question the Seantor asked is how many memebers do you have. That is what was most important to him.
As for the tehillim, obviously that is most important. However, as with parnassah for example(an example near and dear to all) because we are mispallel for parnassah does not mean that we don’t have to work hard every day to make a parnassah.
Z:
Your question is thoughful and deserving to be addressed. Simply, there is strngth in numbers. Policy makers in government are influenced by the size of these demonstrations in making decisions that are improtant to us. If no one shows up, it means that we don’t care, and therefore, they have no reason to care. Incidentally, that is why it is important to vote – something that the frum community does consider improtant enough to waste its time with either.
As for the tehillim, obviously, or tefillos are most important. However, as with parnassah (an example near and dear to all), praying for parnassah does not mean you can stay home and find a paycheck in your bank account. So too, in dealing with our enemies, we must be activisits in addition to saying tehillim. Saying tehillim together with action sustains a proper balance of hishtadlus and bitachon which will bear success.
By the way, is it only children that should say tehillim? Adults don’t have to do anything? Is it always just business as ususual? Isn’t there anything that moves us? Why do more people go to the Kosher Food Expo than a demonstration?
Feif Un
I think you know what I mean by fruma.
No one needs to show up at this silly “protests” for any politician to know that just about everybody (pretty close to it) hates this nut case from Iran.
I think the Yidden who used to be locked inside the USSR would disagree with the idea that protesting has no effect…
sayitlikeitis since you say it like it is i believe its no way jose.yasher kochacha
This is my 1st time posting- but I feel the need.
I was at the protest today, and w/the exception of students that we’re bussed in, the turnout was very sad. This s/d not be an issue that divides us along religious boundaries, this a Jewish/American issue.
I attended all the rallies in the 70’s as a teenager, and am sorry that now we are just to busy polarizing and labeling our fellow Jews, to focus on the bigger issue.
What w/d have helped was having this protest on Sunday allowing many more to attend, and getting some dynamic speakers A la Rabbi Avi Weiss who know how to inspire the crowds.
I’m not sure who is doing all the judging here on who is/isn’t modern orthodox or yeshivish, it just seems like sheer nonsense-
btw, most people I know didn’t attend, b/c they we’re busy preparing for Sukkot, and dealing w/yet another short work week-
we all wonder what happened when hitler took power, where everyone was in protest- well today, was a test to see if this generation is any smarter, and it looks like we failed with flying colors!
Gam zu ltova, in the case of the USSR it was davening and tehillim that had the effect. If protesting has an effect, please explain why this war is still going on in Iraq? You have millions of people over the past 4 years protesting this war and its still going on.
I am a rebbe in a modern orthodox yeshiva in New Jersey. Kudos to our menahel who announced that the yeshiva would only be sending a small delegation to the rally so that the rest of the talmidim could learn Torah.
I think the “rally” (Torah) in yeshiva was the most powerful weapon of the day
Maybe serious people figure we should’nt give him the attention he is begging for.
#31, count us out of any protest attended by ”Rabbi” Avi Weiss.
To sar grad and sane:
You are making valid points, but please allow me to comment as well.
I did attend and at first I was upset that the only “black hat” presence was from the sick “people” of the nk.
I left however when I realized the crowd was an insincere group of teenagers wearing kippot but being “oiver” on so many “issirim” and having a grand ol’ time. The tzni’is was horrible and as a Yid who has a connection to Eretz Yiroel because of it’s keddisha I was upset. When the “oilam hachareidi” held the only proper form of a rally, in the form of a kinnis teffilah which was held in Lower Manhattan on a Sunday, ( awhile back, a repeat is long overdue) you know we were there because we asked the Reboineh Shel Oilem for rachmunis. Today’s rally, while important, was not the place for us chareidim.
I came as an American to protest the brutal monster who is killing our valiant troops as well as a statement of support for Israel. Yet the rally was a support for Israel rally not a protest against the UN
While the speeches were indeed directed at the “Hantiger Humun”, the crowd was there as a support of zionism. And was hardly the protest I expected.
I should have gone to the Columbia Unversity protest as that was much more focused on the issue at hand which is the appearance of this monster in our midst.
If Hitler YM”S was there would people be a little bit more apathetic towards the protestors (even if they themselves didn’t go) ? And yes, big turnouts for demonstrations definitely help, it shows the world powers that we care about ourselves. I think thats a solid Hishtadlus.
Mikedrezz:
Viet Nam ended by mass protest, and yes, the protests against Iraq have severely eroded support for the war and have hampered the war effort. Mass protests throughout history have brought great changes. Why are there hafganot in Eretz Yisroel? Governments cannot ignore mass protests. That it is why it is a shame that the turnout for this protest was so poor. If we don’t show any concern, why should anyone else bother, no matter how much of a nut Ahmadenijad is. For those who did not attend, it has nothing to do with Daas Torah and everything to do with sheer apathy. Has anyone of note ‘assured’ going to the protest?
And to Feif Un, your remarks do not merit a response.
The reason why Agudath Yisroel could not endorse the demonstrations in Manhattan today is b/c they had no role or control in the program and, therefore, didn’t know what would be said. There is always a risk with these things that non-Torahdik people who were calling the shots might get up and say things that were against Torah theology. They couldn’t take a chance and be machshir such an event. That’s as an official organization. However, private Yeshivish Rabonim who were consulted (that I know of) told people they could attend.
B’H Torah Yidden did NOT attend todays rally. It would have been a pure bittul zman and chillul hashem.
#37-
I appreciate your comments-
and even as I am a zionist, I must tell you, I too was disappointed that it turned into a Jewish/Israel focus- b/c it s/d have been an American issue.
As for the tzniut issues- this is America, and people have the freedom to dress as they wish, and that;s one of the reasons this country is great, and we all have to learn to accomodate. I assume you walk the streets, use mass transit etc.., why not be dan l’caf z;chut that no matter how the crowd was dressed, at the very least that which united us all there today, was far, far greater than that which divided us.
As for the teens, I agree, I wish their teachers had gotten a better handle on them, but not so long ago, I was one of those kids at the rallies, and it obviously had an effect on me, so you never know when a sense of community responsibility will kick in.
#36-
derisive comments about rabbis are not respectful, or called for-
Perhaps he is not your Rav, but isn;t that the beauty of the Torah, that there are shivim paanim, and we don’t all have to march to the beat of the same drum-
As an aside, you cannot even begin to fathom what Rabbi Weiss has done for k’lal Yisrael
dvorah, stop it with the mussar giving. How do you know how much time he devotes to learning and letting off steam. Why is it bitul zeman to confront idiotic views such as yours?
dvorah, succus is tomorrow so go to the makolet and do the neccessay preperations a eishes chayil is supposed to do rather than spewing your zionistic hate filled rhetoric.
George Santayana said it aptly, when he admonished us that those who don’t learn history are doomed to repeat it. Many folks of our generation have not been taught Jewish history well enough. If you look at the times of Roman rule and of the times that the Jews decided to protest and brought tragic results, you see that an “azzus metzach” is not always the way Jews should go.
There are Jews in Iran and an Iranian ruler who wants attention. There are other ways, other than degenerating him, to give him the attention he craves in a positive manner.
There is a famous story of a Spanish Gadol who was advisor to the king. One day while strolling together, the king and the Gadol heard an anti-semite yell slurs at the Gadol. Incensed that his advisor was so humiliated, the king turned to the Gadol and told him, “take your insulter and cut his nasty tongue out.” The king left to his palace and the Rav chased down the anti-semitic Spaniard who had such unkind things to say about him. When he met up with him, he asked him about his life and what bothered him and found the man to be struggling with his livelihood. The Rav then took care of the man and helped him find a way of earning a living and getting out of his rut. Some time later, the King and the Rav were again strolling in the streets of Spain. They came across the same bloke, who this time extolled the Rav. The King turned to the Rav and said, “isn’t that the guy who cursed you out? Didn’t I tell you to cut out his nasty tongue? Why didn’t you?” Said the Rav, “King, I listened to you – I cut his NASTY tongue and gave him a nicer one.”
The question we should pose of ourselves, sane and Dvora, and everyone else who voiced so stridently that Jews should be protesting the leader of Iran: is it because we mean G-d and the good of His children in Iran? Or could it be that the idea of protest is enticing because it is emboldening – because human nature wants to be noticed and noted, to be screaming and “out there”. Quiet diplomacy doesn’t usually make a person feel as alive as the chanting, screaming, and ego trip that protests give a person. So, at the end of the day, ask yourself, how much of the protests had to do with “Jewish pride and power” and how much of it had to do with being an Eved Hashem.
While it may be true in a legal sense that the protesters can dress as pritzusdik as they desire, it certainly behooves any Torah true Jew to keep away from such demonstrations — if for nothing else (and there certainly are additional reasons) than the terrible pritzus matzif at these events.
B’H by and large Torah true Yidden, chareidim or otherwise, have kept away from these protests and the tumah they spew.
mikedrezz Pause & have an iced coffee before continuing. Your comments of what and who saved Soviet Jewry is quite enlightening, since the USSR admitted that the continuous rallies and demonstrations of the 60’s & 70’s broke their back, (with the tefilahs and learning as a right hand, of course!!) There is and has always been value to rallies, years ago, my brothers yeshiva (Mir) went by bus with the RY, Rav Birnbausm shlita to demos for Iranian Jews.
Eved Hashem, Modern, Torahdik,- can we get passed our personal opinions and agendas of who, what, how and where?!? Chol Hamoed Succos becomes the ‘entertainment period’ of the year, tzinuis, kashrus, bitul torah, shalom bayis, Modern, Anti-Zionist, Chareidim will be all mixed together. Use sechel and be a mensch.
sayitlikeitis, please document your claim regarding the Soviet ”admission”, as it is a complete invention.
Sane,
Rabbi Soloveitchik’ the “Rav” once said that he doesn’t have Talmidim, Reb Aharon Kotler does. He explained that Reb Aharons talmidim ask him BEFORE they do something if its permitted, whereas his talmidim come to him and say: Rebbe this is what I DID is it ok?
That’s why the “fruma” look the way they do (as a rule) and the Modern Orthodox look the way they do.
Sargrad,
No one is telling anyone how to dress but why should a ben torah put himself in a situation where he’ll see things he shouldn’t. And yes believe it or not there are people who are careful where they walk and what they look at…even in free America. Sorry if their CHOICE offends your non-Torah sensibilities. The Gemara says that if a person chooses to walk down a street where people are not dressed properly thinking that he won’t look he is a rasha!!! Because you’re not supposed to bring yourself into a nisayon.
TO SHARPESTNAIL:
You have missed the point. If you are of the opinion that it is assur to go to a rally until you get reshus to go, then did you bother to ask your Rov, and if not, why did you not ask?
Yidel:
The Soviet Jewry demonstrations led to, among other things, the Jackson-Vanick amendement in the early seventies which placed enormous economic pressure on the Soviet Union and ultimately led to dissolution of the Soviet Empire and freedom to millions of Jews.
To Feif Un
To set the record straight once and for all, I did not chas vesholom in any way shape or form denigrate modern orthodox as you have erroneously inferred. To the contrary, I admire the activism and genuine concern for the safety of the Jews in EY exhibited by the modern orthodox and their willingness to actually exert themselves to do something about it. It is the modern orthodox that by and large appeared at the rally as opposed to the chareidi community and I wonder why. Is that so difficult to understand?
It would have occured regardless of the demonstrations. Reagan’s military buildup, and the Soviets inability to keep pace is what put the final nail in their coffin.