42 Responses

1. Wow. Who schedules an international flight to land on erev Shabbos????

2. Lots of people. Haven’t you read stories recently (on this website) about flights to EY that were delayed and landed close to Shabbos? (The search function is not working to find these stories.)

3. How do gentile drivers and police help with techum shabbos?
   Is achiezer making a eruv techumin?

4. Maybe it was originally supposed to land a lot earlier.

5. Rockaway and The Five Towns are within the same Techum

6. JFK to Five towns is not a d’oraysoh and might even be OK D’rabonon

7. Not sure why the story needs to be posted here

8. #3 who says there is an issue of tchum with an airplane arriving on shabbos (ein techumin lemaalah masara tefachim), a ship might be different.

9. Anyone know the flight number? The only flight in the air I can see from Warsaw to JFK is Lot flight 26, which is not due to land until 8:15 PM tonight– well into Shabbos, even taking all opinions into account.

10. I have an idea, instead of us playing the Rav and focusing on what the should or shouldn’t have done lets marvel how Yidden jump to the challenge to help each other out in a time of need. Achiezer is an incredible organization that is a tremendous resource for all in need. Plus I’m sure if the need were to arise there are many families that would jump to assist in anyway they could. There is so much good to share.

11. Hi all. My Niece is on this flight. Needless to say its a very anxious few hours for my sister and brother in law.
    Number 7-I saw a whats app chat for all the frantic parents and they are comforted that Rabbi Hoffman who knows many of them informed YWN of the story. Don’t read it if it doesn’t interest you but Jews all over the world are now rooting for these students and their safe return for shabbos. The school Rabbis are advising them every step of the way.

12. And if I may add, Achiezer staff have been so comforting and helpful to the parents.

13. techum is not the issue (the entire area between the airport and the five towns is populated) but chillul shabbos either de’oraysah or de’rabbanan is. with shekiyah at 719pm, since we cannot rely on rabbeinu tam as was done during a storm in lakewood, we have until at most 740pm, using non-jews. if people want to be even more maikil, they should think twice. you enter the safek de’oraysah range at 740 at the latest. i would be nervous after 737. your LOR is probably not competent.

14. Which airline is this?

15. To arrive any time Friday is Gantz Not Lemaysa

16. Maybe after shabbos we’ll open up YWN to find a story in which the group spent shabbos on the airplane, not wanting to leave it b/c of techum shabbos. Or maybe they were able to at least go to the airport. I can imagine that be quite a difficult but memorable shabbos — a large group spending shabbos together in the airport.

17. not going to judge and not going to begin to speculate on what the right thing here is as I am not a rav and couldn’t begin to know the halacha…but would point out that it does seem regardless of what the Halacha is that it might have been an great opportunity to teach an entire class an important lesson on the sanctity of shabbos, one they hopefully would never forget….that being said and situation being what it is its very impressive the people coming to the aid of these kids…..and I would point out to those that are not aware the five towns is about a 10 minutes drive from jfk airport so technically with the info above they could make it home before Shkia.

18. All flights from Europe into JFK after 6 today are running on or close to schedule, see http://www.airport-jfk.com/arrivals.php?tp=18
    Did they miss their connection and decide to take a later connecting flight, for some reason?

19. Hopefully everything works out and they get to where they need in time.

    WHY would the tour group leader/s allow the group to board is a question that should have the WHO/’S career path changed. Chinuch aint for you. To be discussed after Shabbos…

20. I am not so learned but one thing I do know, One is not allowed to board a plane when they know that it will land within a few minutes of the shekia in this case a minute or two after sunset and until they get out in the best scenario I think they will have to spend Shabbos at JFK. This is not a simple shaila we are speaking of Issurim D’oriasah Al pi halocho they were supposed to stay where they are and not board the plane, but wait until after Shabbos to come home. Keeping the Torah and mitzvos is the highest simcha and the best chinuch.

21. Whats the issue of having a goy drive? The kids arent driving the goy is!

22. Dr Yid and others what map do you have? Between kasten carpet and the airport there are no homes. Not suggesting that they have to spend Shabbos on the plane just wondering if anyone thought to make an eruv techumin, so they can get from jfk to 5towns/FR area

23. What’s with all the debate and discussion about Kasten carpet and the airport? Theres obvouisly no eruv! How can they bring their luggage hime??

24. You never mess around with Friday’s

25. Since we are so good at speculating I have s number of questions that will hopefully be explained in s future article:

    1. Was the group accompanied by their Rabbeim/Teachers?

    2. Why did they decide to take a flight that was scheduled to land Erev Shabbos?

    3. Was the flight cancelled early enough for them to call for advice?

    4.Were they already on the plane and were not alllowred to disembark?

    5. Did the airline give them any choices?

    6. Were they facing a decision of being stuck in a foreign country with no provisions for Shabbos or try to get back to the US where there may be more options?

26. this type of psak by either rabbis miller or scheinberg should not be publicly discussed. both are problematic for reasons i will email rabbi hoffman

27. Although it is hard enough to get the airlines to agree to re-book even 1 passenger, this being an entire group booking, could have been exponentially harder to convince airline to let them re-book an entire group.

28. Regarding the t’chum, there are routes from the airport to the Five Towns that pass through residential areas (e.g. 147th Avenue).

29. Gut voch
    SO….
    What did indeed happen Friday? Does anybody know
    No armchair Rabbanim, please! I’m just wondering what happened. I was one of many people who was directing – in my case silent – prayers to Hashem, that they arrive early. It does happen sometimes.

30. To Dr Yidd (#26)

    Its exciting to hear that a true “gadol hador” such as yourself is posting here on what is the correct psak on a fairly complex fact pattern that Rav Hoffman outlines in a relatively abbreviated summary. Apparently, its also your conclusion that the psaks of both Miller and Scheinberg are defective and you will contact Rav Hoffman offline to instruct him as to the errors of his thinking. Mi kamocha yisroel where you can get such incredible guidance on halacha and dinei Shabbos from a poishete yid with a doctorate in hubris playing the role of a gadol hador posting under a pseudonym on a website.

31. Nu? What happened?

32. The important part is that everyone got home safely B”H, and that they came back from a life-altering mission that shaped their view on what being a part of Klal Yisroel is.

    those leading HAFTR that night received guidance from Rabbi Boruch Bender, working through or with the Daas Torah organization. Daas Torah specializes in cases like these, and HAFTR did not make any decisions without the permission of Rabbi Bender and the organization.

    So when people ask the HAFTR students about what happened on their way back from Poland, they will make sure to steer the subject to the Poland/Prague mission. You know why? Because that was what really mattered to them. That is what they care about, not some silly mix-up and delay in the airport (which was halachically taken care of anyway). It was an unbelievable experience that will have long-lasting effects on those people. They came back changed Jews, and for the better. We as Jews need to stand united and not jump to conclusions. Let us applaud and admire HAFTR and its students for funding and planning a beautiful mission such as this one. And let us be proud to say that their mission was certainly a successful one.

    -HAFTR student that attended the Abraham Scharf HAFTR Poland/Prague Mission.

33. to #30 I assure you that i do not pasken such sheailot. i do not judge the level of need, for example. however, once a posek decides how he wants to proceed conceptually, i can advise him (and have) on the various times that great halakhists would use. for example, if he wants to allow specific activity until the BEGINNING of safek chashecha de’oraysah, i can help him figure out when variouis shittot believe that occurs. i can also tell him that an opinion on which he may want to rely is questionable for reasons that he is perhaps unaware of.

34. IS THIS A JOKE?? THIS DUMB WEBSITE MONITORS AND CHANGES COMMENTS?? WOW. I’m disappointed. I don’t really care if what I say might not make someone else happy…but this is YELLOW JOURNALISM AND CENSORSHIP AT ITS FINEST. You know what? I will not be posting nor reading nor even paying attention to this fake newsletter ever again. You idiots probably support Donald Trump, and yet you still supply “fake news.” This is just sad. Whoever is reading my comment right now…SHAME. ON. YOU.

35. Coffee: I am happy to hear about your experience. HOWEVER, the rest of us, having been alerted to your plight, would like to hear about the outcome. Did the plane land before shabbos or after? If before, were you and the rest of the HAFTR students able to be home in time for shabbos? If not, did you spend shabbos in the airport (as Avrohom Freid once had to do as he landed at JFK to in a snowstorm and spent shabbos in the airport)?

    PS: If you look at my previous posts I tried not to jump to any conclusions.

36. Well said #32 who was apparently on the trip.
    Really everyone??? let’s stop deciding whether they should, shouldn’t or maybe should have been on that flight.
    The parents of the students knew about this for six hours in advance and had plenty of time to each call their own personal Rabbi’s etc. to get their psakim.
    Kudos to Misaskim, Achiezer, the airport Chaplains and anyone else who did what they can to help. Just be relieved that they are all safe.

37. To Jonanathan Stein the reason i wrote that the story should not be posted here is because I knew this would bring out all the so called Rabbonim in the area that would give all there silly opinions. Not sure how reading all the silly comments made the parents feel better.

38. I hear you. Didn’t realize how many people were concerned with the HAFTR poskim. “Shoin Genuk”

39. I know I said I wasn’t reading or posting here anymore, but I just can’t have people thinking/spreading rumors that are untrue.

    Attention #35:
    The exact time of our landing was unclear, nor do I remember. But Shabbat– inclusive of the 18 minutes– had indeed began by the time we exited the aircraft. Due to sources confirming that we had 72 minutes following Shkia to travel home, we thankfully made it home before any halachic damage was done. Achiezer sent a school bus to JFK with a gentile driver, which transported most of the students to our principal’s house. At that point, the students had their parents or ubers pick them up (parents were allowed to drive as long as they got home before the 72 minutes ran out).

    I was not trying to single you or anyone else out, and so I apologize if you felt I did. But I simply cannot allow this gossip-mongering to ruin the reputation of both a fine Yeshiva institution and a fine Menahel, especially if those rumors are fraudulent.

    -C

40. So what happened?

41. Coffee: I don’t believe I started any gossip nor did I question the psak you received. Your group had a psak and that’s fine. I once had been told a similar psak for my wife and therefore it was not surprising to me.

    However to leave everyone dangling about what happened is incorrect. A simple update such as: “Plane landed safely within the time frame mentioned in the article and the students were able to enjoy shabbos at home” would have sufficed.

    Or of course the article should never have been posted at all.

42. (Ignore my comment 40 – #39 hasn’t come out yet)

    Parents were allowed to drive as long as they got home before 72? Ubers are po’alim and there is DEFINITELY a halachic problem using them on Shabbos itself! Assuming you’re meikel like the Rabbeinu Tam (and most rishonim) and then you count Bein HaShashos from the last second before tzeis (BIG makhlokes!) then you still have problems with amira l’akum, Davar dabar, zilzul Shabbos, maris ayin, chilul Hashem (yes!)…. They might all be the same thing, but most certainly “halachic damage was done.”

    Why couldn’t they just spend Shabbos at the priciple’s house? You were away for a week in Europe, is Far Rockaway so far away from home you can’t spend Shabbos there?

    This type of “psak” is what blurs the lines between the “traditional Orthodox” and the “modern Orthodox” and the not religious (“Open”) groups.