There is a most interesting din Torah pending in Ponevezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak. The case was brought before the Av Beis Din, HaGaon HaRav Nissim Karelitz Shlita, to adjudicate the case between two families claiming the same seat in the beis medrash.
Anyone familiar with the yeshiva knows that one of the challenges is to secure a seat, any seat, not to mention a choice location. For the few and the privileged, yichus comes into play, with a makum kavua being handed from generation to generation, but for most, this is indeed among the major challenges in the beis medrash.
In this case, a family that has claimed the rights to a makom kavua for two decades is being challenged by another family, claiming it owned the seat prior to that time and today, the family is reclaiming it. Unable to reach agreement, the case was brought before the Av Beis Din.
Many feel the decision will impact not just the case in point, but it may have widespread ramifications in the beis medrash.
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
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26 Responses
Was it brought to a formal Beis Din, with a proper hearing, evidence, deliberation, etc?
OR
Did they ask the local rav, who happened to be R. Nissim Karelitz to settle the matter.
I strongly suspect the latter, and this is hardly a new issue. The issue wasn’t a problem at Sinai, but started when someone introduced “chairs”.
i hope you wil post the Psak?
we have a din chazaka by land,
If the guy doesn’t claim it within 3 years then yerusha doesn’t matter
This is similar to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israel has the land now, and the “palestinians” are trying to claims it’s really their land.
The Psak should be that each side should donate money to expend the Bais HaMedrash.
Arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!
OY!!! 90% of the Jewish world is not frum…and all we can think about is where we’re going to sit?!?!
We should be thanking Hashem for being born to a frum family and appreciating reality! What did we ever do to deserve that!?
Kavod Shamayim is being trampled by the minute…and all we can think of is ourselves.
I’m sure Hashem is watching with pride.
TO coffee addict.
not exactly correct.
I don’t know how this would apply to a seat in the yeshiva,
but in the case of regular real-estate the current occupant
would still have to explain how it came into his position.
e.g. bought it. his 3 year chazaka relieves him of having to prove it.
otherwise KOL CHAZAKA SHE’AIN IMAH TAANAH AINA CHAZAKA.
i Wrote: into his position.
I should have typed: into his possession
PLEASE delete this post!! To say about the yungerman in the heilege yeshiva Ponovitch would “Many feel the decision will impact not just the case in point, but it may have widespread ramifications in the beis medrash” is to imply that they are being mevatal their learning over this shtus.
Who gave you people a heter to even run this website or to go around commenting on private dinei torah that don’t affect anybody but the two VERY respected families involved?!?!?
To #6: Why is kovod shomayim being trampled? Two Jews are settling a dispute exactly the way they are supposed to, by agreeing to din Torah. Are you suggesting that individuals shouldn’t pursue personal issues because of klal tzorus? Would you forgo a din Torah against someone who owed you money because of the state of klal yisroel? I doubt it. (Of course you could legitimately object to YW’s publicizing this story but that objection would apply to most of the stories posted here!)
#9 – delete it????
It is a kiddush ha-Shem when two yidden ask a rav to settle a dispute.
And Baruch ha-Shem we are again having a problem of shuls being around so long that some is trying to reclaim their ancestors’ seats. Since all of our “ancient” shuls were destroyed (or at least, are now in places that Jews don’t live in), we can’t fight over the seats.
is this a joke?
#11 – a kiddush hashem???
Since when in the oberland di yidden argue over this kind of thing? Alter yidden had vasranus and if someone was in their makom EVEN PERMMENENTLY they would find a new makom.
And also plent of “ancient” shuls wer NOT destroyed like the KOSEL for example!!!!
They should go for a psahara and learn bichavruasa in that spot.
“Many feel the decision will impact not just the case in point, but it may have widespread ramifications in the beis medrash.”
Pardon my selfish arrogance but I have much bigger problems to worry about.
Does anybody know which seat this is? Because if this is row 17, seat B, then I am absolutely livid right now. This seat was passed down to me by my grandfather, and I was planning to sell it and live off the proceeds. Guess I’ll have to get a job. Although I do have a great pair of mezzanine level seats at the main Mir building if anyone’s interested.
Kavod Shomayim is trampled when 90% of the Jewish people are not frum. The point is that our priorities are SO MESSED UP. We’re bothered by where we sit when the whole Klal is in flames!
#13 – there are no permanent chairs in the kosel, no one has a makom kavua there
to 13.
I am sorry but halacha is filled with discussions about
seats in shules. in previous generations, (I dont know when this stopped) the seat in the shul was property, to be bought sold and inherited. if a guest is is found sitting in your seat (even during the generations when it was ‘your seat’) it might be proper to sit somewhere else that time. that is not the same as someone claiming the sit as his. this is a legitimate reason for a din torah
and nothing to be ashamed of.
#16 You’re making a busha out of a busha. Laytzanus is not needed around this time of year. If you want to make a joke out of torahdika zach then go to the other “frum” new swebsites that EVERY godol has already banned just don’t bring your laytzunus here which is a 100% pure makom kadosh.
to number 18- how do you know there are no permanent seats at the kosel? If you were commenting at 6:20 my time here in lakewood (atlanctic time) then you’re obviously not in eretz yisroel so how do you have any IDEA what goes on at the kosel. You think becuase you went to some modern- orthodox chometz-on-pesach hotel for a week once you have any idea what goes on at the kosel????? Why wouldn’t there be reservd seats there any more than in Bobov in BP or in Bnei Brak (hakadosh).
is arguing over a seat going to bring us any closer to mashiach??? why must people fight like this? why can’t one family give in and say “ok, we are mevater for the sake of shalom and kiddush Hashem,” and move on? or is that too much to ask?
APY # 20:
I hope you’re being sarcastic with # 16.
His comment was actually funny without it being at anyone’s expense. Chodesh Av is when we’re ‘M’MAATIM B’SIMCHA’. TAKE A CHILL PILL.
At least they’re not hitting each other, shooting each other, or burning garbage cans. Yet.
‘Ein kol chodosh tachas hashemesh.’ Even in the days of Moshe Rabbeinu, there were dinei torah taking place and one could wonder even greater then with matan torah how can one waste their silly time (and Moshe Rabbeinu’s precious time) with mundane matters when great things of historic proportion were taking place then. Yet we don’t see anywhere in the Torah or Chazal of being critical on these individuals. The answer is, as some indicated here, this is the appropriate mehalech – you have an issue with someone, go to a Beis Din. And for anyone who is familiar with these types of large, overcrowded batei medrashim, one will know this is not some frivilous argument. If you spend majority of the day in that Beis Medrash, then it impacts a tremendous quality of life, learning, etc.
We see for example, in hilchos kibbud av v’eim, how Chazal treat the particulars of an individual with great sensivity when it comes to one’s preferred place in learning. One is not bound to his parents’ directives, especially if he feels he can learn better in his preferred place.
So let’s not jump to conclusions here (as in many other blogs as well) and wait respectfully for the psak.
Dear APOSHUTERYID,
Firstly sit down and calm down. Work on ANGER MANAGEMENT for “Elul” instead of preaching about Laytzanus! You are so sour and boring! Strange person!
Secondly go see a therapist coz you are very weird and even more confused!
One minute you are dissing YWN for publishing this article and then another you are calling YWN a “Makom Kodosh”!!!
Who gave you a “Heter” to publicize your opinion that the two families involved are “very respected”?! I surely don’t respect them coz “Machlokes is not needed around this time of year”, in my humble anti-yeshivish opinion.
Signed with pity on your poor surroundings,
Simpleton
simpleton, if you are awake at 5:42 AM why are you not in the beis medrish? Fisrt, I WAS sitting when I wrote what I did and second I WAS completey CALM!!! It’s nice that you are being malshin me as sour and boring because even my ex-wife would admit that I am not
1) weird
2)confused
3)sour
4)boring
however, I DO know that anybody who knows me and read what you wrote might now be mekabel the loshon hora you wrote about me so talk about a michshol!! Aslo you wrote “coz” even though its spelled “cause”.
And how could you even come to this website or dare to comment if you are admittedly “anti-yeshivish”. I guess you mean you are against yeshivas!!! For what age? for tinokos shel beis rabban? For high school? for kollel? I would be very careful in saying something against yeshivas ESPECILLY in this age and day!!
have a good shabbos!!!!!