[By Andy Branower]
The Op-Ed piece by Yossi Gestetner, posted on Yeshiva World News on July 8, 2011, questions the “Jewishness” of David Weprin but brushes over a fundamental notion that is essential to understanding Mr. Gestetner’s opinion: what should frum (or any other) Jews expect from an elected Jewish member of a legislature (state, federal or local) in the American democracy. Mr. Wepner is currently a member of the New York State Assembly and is the Democratic party’s nominee for a runoff election to fill the vacancy in New York’s Ninth Congressional District, a vacancy that resulted from the resignation of Anthony Weiner, which you may have heard about. The district is heavily Jewish, though I do not know what portion of the district is frum-Jewish. (If Mr. Gestetner knows, he did not reveal it in his piece.)
Mr. Gestetner sites only two examples of “unJewish” voting by Mr. Weprin as a State Assemblyman: (i) for same-gender marriage, and (ii) for an increase in cigarette taxes. From these two examples, Mr. Gestetner declares that “Assemblyman Weprin legislated as a non-observant Jew.” Putting aside the inadequacy of two votes to determine the political viewpoint of any legislator, Mr. Gestetner presumes that (A) there is a “Jewish way” for a Jew to legislate when participating in a pluralist, non-sectarian secular society’s legislature, and (B) the 2 votes sited by Mr. Gestetner were “unJewish”. I presume that Mr. Gestetner believes (as I do) that the “Jewish way” to legislate in a non-Jewish, democratic, pluralistic society is revealed in the Torah – but like so many other mitzvahs revealed in the Torah, it takes careful study and thought to discern them, and Mr. Gestetner’s piece did not contain or cite any such evaluation, study or thought, or refer to any particular gadol or other Torahic authority to support his belief that voting for same-gender marriage or an increase in cigarette taxes in not the Torah way.
Let’s dispose of the cigarette tax question first. I do not know why Mr. Gestetner considers a tax on cigarettes “unJewish”, and he explains his objection to Mr. Weprin’s vote as a threat to tax liquor and an offense to the 20% (his number) of the population (frum-Jewish, Jewish and all others) who do smoke. According to Mr. Gestetner, this tax increase will make Mr. Gestetner unpopular with frum Jews and discourage them from voting for him. This is not a Torahic objection, it is a purely secular, politically strategic objection, and (for what my opinion is worth), probably wrong. Torah is not anti-tax.
That leaves us with Mr. Weprin’s vote for same-gender marriage. Accepting that same-gender marriage is prohibited by Torah, does that tell us that a Jewish legislator in a pluralistic, democratic society must absolutely vote against a statute that authorizes conduct prohibited by the Torah? Torah requires that we must be a light unto the nations, and it also requires chesed and justice. How shall we balance these competing, possibly conflicting, commandments? Mr. Gestetner does not tell us, and he cites no Torahic authority to support his view. Ironically, one of Mr. Gestetner’s stated reasons in opposition to Mr. Weprin’s vote is that it is “dismissive of his heritage”. “Heritage” is not Torah. Jewish heritage includes lox and bagels, borscht-belt comedians and the voice of Bugs Bunny. Torah was given to us Jews by Hashem. I like lox, but lox is not part of His Torah. And I would not be “unJewish” if I did not like lox.
I do not know why Mr. Weprin voted for same-gender marriage. He might have done so out of a belief (which is my belief) that chesed and justice require it. He might have done so as an act of legislative logrolling or horse-trading, which are tools of every effective legislator. Let me emphasize: I am not endorsing Mr. Weprin, as I know little about his record and do not live in his district. But from reading Mr. Gestetner’s piece about him, I have no reason to believe he is any “less” Jewish than any other Jewish politician, or that his voting was not consistent with the requirements of Torah.
Mr. Branower is an uncredentialed political analyst who is a registered Democrat. He voted for Bob Dole in 1996, and for John B. Anderson, a Republican who ran as an independent for president in 1980. He considered voting for George W. Bush in 2000, but his wife would not let him.
NOTE: The views expressed here are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent or reflect the views of YWN.
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18 Responses
While one can question a same sex marriage vote, a vote to increase cigarette taxes is about the most pro-Torah vote I could imagine! Jews will live longer and healthier lives as a result. And that trumps almost everything else in Torah.
I actually agree – from a conservative standpoint – with increasing taxes on cigarettes. It is a way to indirectly increase revenue without raising direct taxes. Plus, as charliehall said, smoking is wholly assur.
finally a voice of sanity
Gestetner’s and his llke disenfranchise and delegitimize a tactic that has been used by demagouges throughout history
Charlie – Your statement assumes that by taxing cigarettes, it will decrease their use. Then you must also agree, using the same logic, that by increasing payroll taxes and sales tax, you will decrease employment and the sales of goods.
Since the name of this website is “Yeshiva World,” I asume that most of the visitors here have some familiarity with true Torah priciples.
Therefore, I assert that “Histakel beorayso, uboroh almah”–Hashem looked into the Torah, and built the world–should be a concept that most of you have run into, somewhere in your journey through the yeshiva.
Therefore, a true Torah Jew would never ever assume that a clear and unambiguous prohibition that is written in the Torah for all of Mankind–not just for Jews–is wrong and uncompassionate. Is G-D uncompassionate?
The prohibition against “Kosvim kesubah lezachar”–which led to the destruction of sodom–is for everone’s good. It is the very essence of compassion. It is necessary for the very survival of the Mankind, not to mention its happiness and success in life.
We and this op-ed writer are all victims of the propaganda of the reshoim.
And so, sadly, is the old yeshiva bochur, David Weprin!
Fairly well said. Let’s remember – the main reason we have been lucky enough to flourish in this country is because of the separation of church and state. We should be the last ones to advocate for laws based on religious doctrine.
Mr. Branower’s logic is hopelessly twisted. Rav Moshe Feinstein states in a teshuva that to legislate same gender marriage will “anger Hashem”. Mr. Weprin is arousing r’l that anger by his despicable vote. Yes, we expect a frum Jewish legislator avoid casting a vote which will incur Hashem’s wrath. This is completely obvious.
Very simple.
A jew who believes in the Torah should view same-gender marriage as a factually distructive legislation, one that will not only lower the spiritual level in our city, but also lower the odds of it’s phisycal well being. This should be ABC to anyone who claims to believe in the Torah.
and you write “…but like so many other mitzvahs revealed in the Torah, it takes careful study and thought to discern them, and Mr. Gestetner’s piece did not contain or cite any such evaluation, study or thought, or refer to any particular gadol or other Torahic authority to support his belief”.
Well, what the Torah has to say about same-gender marriage, how distructive it is for a society, is well known to Jews and Goyim alike. YOU are the one who has to prove that it’s OK for a Jew to vote that way.
But then you say: “He might have done so out of a belief (which is my belief) that chesed and justice require it”…
Wow. You actually believe it’s a Mitzva of Chessed!!?? Chessed for who? for the poor child up for addoption who’s waiting for a good home to grow up in??!!–
Nebach…
I guess we can apply an old Torah principle here:
“CHESED LE-UMIM CHATOS!”The compassion of the gentiles is truly a sin.”
If a candidate is representing goyim, he can probably advocate on their behalf with no constraints other than the Mitsvos of the Bnei Noach. That would NOT help a frum politicans who want to support gay rights or abortion (even goyim can’t do such things), but he could freely vote his constituents conscience on almost anything else (e.g. fiscal irresponsibility, foreign affairs,etc.).
Consider a German politicians 70 years ago who wishes to be a righteous goy – could he go along with his constituents and support the holocaust, or would he feel obligated to becoming a dissident (and eventually a traitor). Should we expect our representatives to show the same courage shown by goyim who opposed the Nazis in Europe (okay, bad analogy: a frum politician who opposes abortion or gay rights doesn’t end up hanging from a meat hook – the worst is he’ll have to get an honest job rather than be in the legislature).
#6 – big mistake. That is just “Jewish paranoya”. Somethings are simply bad for society, and just because it’s written in the Torah that doesn’t make it better… It’s a shame that Goyim understand this, and you have to ‘rise your kishkas’ so Jews should..
I agree with Charlie, in this case, that cigarettes should be taxed as much as possible.
Regarding same-gender “marriage”, it is clearly “un-Jewish” to support this perversion because the Torah which is the so-to-speak “bible” of the Jewish people very clearly not only forbids same-gender “marriage” but also calls it an abomination.
Deep Thinker’s point about “Histakel Bioraysa uvara alma” is IMHO an excellent one as well. The Torah is not a theoretical moral code that can be debated or outdated, CH”V. As it is the blueprint of the world, so to speak, it is downright foolish to so brazenly violate that which the Torah not only forbids but calls outright an abomination.
Hashem Yishmor.
Accepting that same-gender marriage is prohibited by Torah, does that tell us that a Jewish legislator in a pluralistic, democratic society must absolutely vote against a statute that authorizes conduct prohibited by the Torah? Torah requires that we must be a light unto the nations, and it also requires chesed and justice. How shall we balance these competing, possibly conflicting, commandments?
Is this a joke Branower? The Torah strictly prohibits, by pain of death, same gender relations. Yes, for gentiles.
Period. End of discussion.
While the Op-Eds and comments above reflect two seemingly opposing viewpoints in the same-gender marriage controversy, I think there are two separate points here that don’t necessarily conflict, especially as this debate applies to Orthodox Jews.
On one hand, the Torah is very clear that not only are such relationships absolutely prohibited, but G-d considers them an abomination and destructive. I don’t see how any Torah observant Jew can think or argue otherwise. On the other hand, we live in a democratic, secular country where the separation of church and state allows us great freedom and liberty to practice our religion and to live the lifestyle we so desire. It seems unfair and hypocritical for us to then turn around and wish to impose those same religious beliefs on others.
The real dilemma is that the Torah does not espouse a “live and let live” culture in which we don’t have to concern ourselves with how those around us conduct their lives, and such relationships can therefore never become acceptable in Orthodox institutions and communities, but as a tiny minority of a non-Jewish country is it so obvious that we should be at the forefront of a fight to withhold the same rights to others that we so enjoy?
That said, we definitely should not be proactively supporting a movement which we know G-d detests and those Orthodox politicians that have endorsed and voted for same-gender marriage will have to answer for themselves when they get upstairs. The delicate task for the rest of us is to convey our disapproval all the while respecting the same American values and freedoms that Jews throughout history and even today in much of the world could only dream of.
“Then you must also agree, using the same logic, that by increasing payroll taxes and sales tax, you will decrease employment and the sales of goods.”
Yes in principle, no in practice. Sales and payroll taxes are a small fraction of sales and payrolls; by comparison taxes on cigarettes are huge. Also, you will decrease employment and sales even more by laying off police officers firefighters, sanitation workers, health department workers, emergency medical service workers, transit workers, and other government employees who are essential to a healthy functioning society, and also in the long run by laying off teachers, medical researchers, parks department workers, and others who contribute to the general well being of society. You have to have taxes to pay them.
“The Torah strictly prohibits, by pain of death, same gender relations. Yes, for gentiles.”
Only same gender relations between men. The prohibition regarding women is not explicitly stated and therefore carries no death penalty. And there is no prohibition at all for non-Jewish women.
“lawnmoer”, what if the issue would be other perversions such as father-daughter relationships, adult-child relationships, etc.?
In the case of a father-daughter relationship, what right does society have to stop such a marriage between 2 consenting adults? Why can’t they get the same benefits as a “married” couple?
It is quite simple, unless one buys in to the nonsense of this latest fallacious ism/movement.
It is a biological reality that a child can only be born from the union of a male and female, (including “test-tube” babies and the like, without being any more specific).
Since kids raised in a household of a committed relationship of a father plus mother is long proven to be the most beneficial to society in so many ways, it makes good sense to legislate (benefits for participating in) marriage to encourage parents to produce and raise optimally the next generation of productive citizens.
An “alternative relationship” is disqualified on both counts. So there is no more excuse to justify same-gender marriage than there would be for a mother-son relationship or an uncle-minor child relationship.
The biggest problem for those who do NOT subscribe to this pack of lies, however, is that our surroundings affect us and this “tolerance” will (if it hasn’t already begun to) insidiously creep in and corrupt even those who have no interest in these perversions.
So the democracy argument MIGHT go as far as what you do in private, but definitely not to force society to condone this perversion as legitimate and valid. And, yes, if you value the amoral and corrupt education and society that today’s and tomorrow’s children (besides for adults) will be exposed to, that might be one reason to care.
And, no, it has nothing to do with freedom of religion or any other freedom that we enjoy because practice of any religion within the bounds of the laws of the land that do not negatively affect anyone else should be tolerated by all as each can choose their their own (or could choose not to have a) faith; as opposed to same-gender marriage which goes against the law of the land for, in part, the above reasons, even if that law happened to have now been foolishly changed by legislators with the wool clearly pulled firmly over their eyes.
Branower, It is prohibited for us to facilitate violation of the 7 Mitsvos by Goyim. Period.