Dear YWN,
When I was in school, we never got off the bus for a trip without the speech – make a kiddush HaShem, not a chillul HaShem.
Apparently many adults no longer remember this. I in no way mean to include everyone in what I am about to say. However, there were enough offenders to make it a group rather than just a few individuals that I address.
I was at Six Flags Great Adventure on Chol Hamoed and was embarrassed by the behavior of many (not all) of the obviously yeshivish people there.
Despite the fact that I was there with a group of 40 modern orthodox kids (and my own yeshivish family) it wasn’t the behavior of the groups of teens that I was appalled, rather than the adults.
Obviously, many of these people do not believe that lines are for them. I guess they are just for those who aren’t as privileged as they are. I witnessed whole families pushing past people waiting patiently on line for rides, bathrooms, and to exit the park. The disregard for others continued.. a park show was cut short because the people in the audience were speaking very loudly, and walking around incessantly. The ground by the picnic area was carpeted with Heimish food and snack wrappers.
And waiting on lines and littering weren’t the only rules I witnessed being broken. Blatant disregard for safety rules, those same rules put into place by the park for everyone’s safety. Pushing kids onto rides they were too small for. Putting too many kids into one seat. I even saw a woman walk right past a park worker who was telling her she couldn’t enter a kids only area.
My children sat patiently on many a ride while the park workers tried to get others to follow the rules.
I also saw an incredibly stupid woman do a very dangerous thing. When told that her daughter was too small to ride alone, she put the 8-10 month old in the stroller, told the 2 year old to watch her, and took her daughter on the ride!! If you only heard the comments the non Jewish passerbys were making!!
All this is not only a terrible chillul HaShem for the goyim, but for the modern orthodox and not yet shomer mitzvot that were there. All I can say, I was embarrassed to be associated with this group, and feel mortified when I think of what the park workers were thinking and saying by the end of the day.
People have to remember that they do not only represent their own family when they leave their homes (what would the shadchan say!. They represent Am Yisrael in general, and the modern orthodox/yeshivish/chassidish, etc world that they are associated with. Make your families and nation proud, not ashamed.
NOTE: The views expressed here are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent or reflect the views of YWN.
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56 Responses
I agree with the author, however, as a ” modern orthodox” person, or more aptly someone who follows halacha but doesnt fit the chareidi mold, lets not be so worried about the labels and more worrie about our actions , the chillul hashem was regardless of whether these people were yeshivish or not or whether the people who saw them were merly “modern”
I don’t believe “Yeshivish” people go to Great Adventures on Chol Hamoed (unless you consider “yeshivish” anyone not chasidish or modern orthodox) Real “Yeshivish” people would consider going to Great Adventures on Chol Hamoed itself a Chillul H-shem. Please when reading the above article replace the description “yeshivish” with plain old “frum”.
It’s because the park rules and regulations do not emanate from Torah. Since park employees are not talimdei chachomim, we are not required to listen to them. Also, the park grounds will be cleaned by the goyim, since that there is their job and we are an am kadosh.
So to wait in line, or pick up your chip bag, that’s not for me. But to harass the family whose bag of snacks bears no hashgocho, I’ll do that with zeal.
Very well written I agree 100% and know EXACTLY what the writer is talking about. Unfortunatley seen it too many times. Toooo many.
What in the world did the author think was going to happen if he posted this article? Did he honestly think anything was going to change?
Reb Yid,
You’ve obviously never been to Boro Park.
Unfortunately, this article is so true. Every time I go somewhere on Chol Hamoed, I am so embarassed by the behavior I have witnessed. I have actually picked up litter(from obviously heimeshe hecheshers) left around by people who are to lazy to look for the garbage can. I think maybe articles in the weeklies should be written to remind people of the tremendous potential for Chillul Hashem. I don’t bother going away on Chol Hamoed trips anymore. The aggravation I have gotten from seeing the pushing, littering, and flauting of the rules, by others is not worth it.
just found this…. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=17496
its like when you go to the zoo and there is this sign that says ”do not feed the animals” and in the cage you see gefen drink boxes and a monkey eating shmura matza!
Mr. Letter Writer,
You do bring up a few good points that definitely require attention.
I’m sure people will be commenting that you are “blowing it out of proportion” however with today’s technology of Twitter & Facebook; one such incident carries the same ramifications as one hundred.
Unfortunately, this is a classic case of “man bites dog”. The reaction that was shared by you and people of all faiths are only because Yidden are the “Chosen People” and we are expected to act as Bnei Malochim.
There Boruch Hashem are plenty of people that are “tuned in” to their surroundings as in the article below. We just don’t hear about it that often because it’s something we are expected to do.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?s=avi+gevoldig
Hatzlocha
Avi G.
This article is 100% correct, and then some. And it is a huge problem. Tragically, this not only happens in places like Six Flags. Chutzpah happens in Yeshivos to Rebbeim and teachers, and in too many cases, it is the norm.
There is a severe misapplication of the fact that if one spends time studying the letter of the law, ignorant of the spirit of the law, and as long as they are not burglars or committing violent crimes, they can “cash in” on their zchus, even though to some degree that is correct, by being outright chutzpadik, and feel they have “permission” to do so.
This does not bode well for us. We must realize the hugeness of Derech Eretz kodma L’Torah. And perhaps should focus on derech eretz as we do loshon hora.
to the letter writer:….And did you notice the 1000’s of people that DID put the garbage into the cans, who did NOT push in. did you check the garb. cans if they were not overloaded, which happens when such tremendous crowds converge in recreation places, as i’ve noticed(no matter who they are?. no, i dont expect everyone to act like perfect zombies. thats what the situation is in such cases.you are too self concious and embarressd of you jewuishness that you feel so you have this complex.
i don’t want to spread any lashon hara, however since there will be a toeles in writing this, i will. this is a behavior that is seen all over, not only in six flags and not only on chol hamoed, and it is a terrible chillul Hashem. Not only is it a chilluel Hashem, this is also one of the biggest reasons of anti Semitism, (Yup that’s right not just flat out “no reason at all”, or “just jealous”). and i”m not coming from nowhere, i had recently spoken to guyim (“oy vey”) about this issue, the most recent time was on a flight from London to NY, i was speaking to a very knowledgeable African American steward, i had asked him to explain to me why is it that i sometimes get hate remarks or looks, he told me that from all the passengers that fly the Jewish people give him the hardest time of them all. (he told me it was specifically a certain sect. of them, i then tried to answer for them, something about manners, but it was hard, for he is 100% right about his complaint).
So you want them to correct their behavior only so they don’t make a khillul hashem, and not as to be fair and courteous to other people?
To comment # 6 and all,
While there are some in the community that think they are above rules, 99% of us do create a Kiddush Hashem at these parks.
I went Chol Hamoed , Thursday – to Nellie Bly/Adventurers Amusement Park near BP, I didn’t observe any such derogatory behavior and yes, the park was packed with chasidishe people and the lines were long.
Wherever the is the possibility of Chillul HaShem, there is also the probability of Kiddush HaShem. And farkert.
We are a verrry Chassidish-looking family and our children are tuned in to making a Kiddush HaShem wherever we go; whether the goyish fruit store (3-Guys and Circus); on the highway, at a stop sign (Yes; full stop please) or in an airplane. Especially because we obviously represent the Jewish people, we must be extra alert.
It’s got to start with the parents. We even discuss it on the Shabbos table on occasion.
The problem lies in part in the “kidush hashem speech”. When kids are brought w/ no derech eretz and sheer ignorance to anybody that dresses or looks different(different size yarmulka)so the reason to behave is because people are watching so make sure to fool them & make a kidush hashem.
Unfortunately, this is true and happens in our own backyards. Toys r us in Manhattan hire frum people to deal with such on Chol Hamoed.From the simple things are just dropping garbage on the floor when there are cans all over. In our backyard we have garbage from kids on the other side of the fence who just dumped after they ate. My husband and me clean up rather than asking the cleaning help and let her comment how our children are not raised. But over the years i began to notice that it is a type that starts when they are young and continues into adulthood. We see it all over where people jump lines starting with a comment as “i just want to ask something”. Such chinuch begins at home and if they don’t get it at home, it’s usually a lost cause.
#15, I beg to disagree. This also happens with driving habits on the road. There is a blocking out of other people. It is as though someone says, “I want to go from point A to point B, so I will”, without any regard for the other person. It is dangerous, and, I hate to say, it is epidemic in our community. And while I hate when non-Jews bring it up, and I will defend us, I understand the problem they are talking about.
I’m not sure which Six Flags you went to because I too was at Six Flags on Chol Hamoed and I was proud to call myself part of the thousands of jews acting polite, respectful being patient and friendly. I overheard some park workers exclaiming their amazement over how nicely things were running thanks to the cooperative visitors despite it being one of their most packed days ever.
#3 I TRULY HOPE YOU WERE BEING SARCASTIC!!!!!!!
“NOTE: The views expressed here are those of the authors and do not necessarily represent or reflect the views of YWN.”
Regarding the note above that was placed at the end of the article, I believe that YWN’s views SHOULD BE IN AGREEMENT with the writer.
I myself was appalled to read about the horrific scenes he witnessed!! What a horrible Chillul Hashem!!!
1. There are a few in every crowd; but when a Jew does it some people are waiting to critize. We notice it since when we go some place we look for our brothers.
2. There is a problem however with dereck eretz that really needs to be addressed by the Rebbes and Rebbaian. Double parking when you can pull in
block each way so you can have a conversation with each other.It shows a certain lack of sensitivity to the surrounds.
Recent a woman double park to go into a house when there was a parking space and she said she has a right to double park and block the street in both direction. Fathers bring children to shul and children jumping over the benches and fathers saying nothing. It shows a lack of sensitivity to the people around. It reminds me of the attitude of most bmw drivers [and these are not Jews].
3.
PEOPLE, WAKE UP! The problem is that people, acheinu benei yisroel are lacking terribly in their self worth, specifically as being the aam hanivchor.
We need to to appreciate who we ARE and with that respect others. Hashem yeracheim.
#21, yes, I was being sarcastic.
Nebach, our potato chips have three different hechsheirm, and our middos . . .
Number 12 made a very good point.
Why cant we just dan everyone lecaff zechus?
Besides, do you really think OURS make a bigger mess than the others???
I remember looking at an apartment we were thinking of renting, where a goy had just finished his lease.
MY GOODNESS! I can’t begin to describe how filthy dirty they left that place. IT STUNK something not normal, there was food rubbed into the carpet and the stove was complelty burnt!
Go to any public park, and just observe who makes all the noise, who curses and who dresses in the most immodest way!
Telegrok,
Your sarcasim is a bit ‘overkill’
Those who make the mess, would do it anywhere!
Nameless, as far being dan L’kaf zechut, the topic is about yidden making a chillul Hashem. I am sorry, if I can not be dan L kaf zechut in this manner. Maybe you can explain to me when I did go away somewhere on Chol Hamoed, do I have to see so much litter on the ground when in the amusement parks, there are workers who are constantly empty out garbage cans. The fact is it is disgusting. If my children have something to throw out and the drop it on the floor, I make them pick it up and hold it till we find a garbage can to dispose of properly. Hashem gave us the world to take care of and pollute. Also, when people do not throw things out in zoos or even giving them food that the animals are not accustomed too, they maybe causing harm to the animals, what about Tzar L’ baalei Chaim? Also, potato chips bags and banana peels on the ground are dangerous, what if someone chas v’shalom slipped. We as yidden have a tremendous responbilty to make sure that we are showing how a yid is suppose to act.
I don’t know what was going on there as I was not there.
When I was in elementary school the school got permission for us to use the baseball fields of a nearby park. Sometime later the principal came around to each class to let us know that he has received numerous complaints about trash and wrappers (of Kosher food items) left all over the place and he was utterly embarrassed at how we were behaving.
We all said that would never throw wrappers on the ground outside just like we would never do it inside the building. The principal invited the park manager or supervisor to come by at any time to watch how we behave and play.
He was very impressed and agreed that it was probably not us creating the mess. He arranged to have some surveillance set up and caught the culprits. Some teenagers from a league that used the fields were horrified that Jewish kids were using “their” fields during the day and decided to empty out the garbage cans before leagues started hoping that we would be banned from using the fields.
The supervisor apologized and had the cans locked down. The problem went away overnight.
One thing to keep in mind which my kids who were there told me is that it was very crowded to say the least. It was way oversubscribed. Having been there for many hours, they only managed to go on one ride. Some of the rides had signs that it would be over a 2-hour wait.
I personally believe Six Flags bears some of the responsibility for admitting many more people than they could handle. There must have been a lot of people who paid good money to be there for the day, and got almost nothing out of the hefty admission price.
This year since Chol Hamoed was really only one day, it was a bad situation all around. Let us do our part to act like menschen, but also realize that when things are way overcrowded, it is going to lead to chaos in some form or another.
I was thinking of taking my family to this outing and had doubts as if there would be too many people and maybe a chilul hahsem in the making since people do not have patience to wait online or do anything right at times.
I asked my rosh yeshiva what to do and he said do not go there because it can become a chilul hashem.
My Rosh yeshiva was not blaing anyone that ran the event or blasting any chol hamoed trips. This was just a persoanl question and a personal answer and i’m glad I listened and di not take my family because I heard it was a complete distater from begining to end.
‘And did you notice the 1000’s of people that DID put the garbage into the cans, who did NOT push in.’
#12, you do make a good point. But believe me, the outside world is NOT looking to be dan Jews l’kaf zechus.
Our actions are heavily scrutinized, particularly if we look like frum Jews. It makes little or no difference if a non-Jew dirties up a place or blatantly disregards safety rules, that is no chillul Hashem. But when a Jew does, the chillul Hashem is great.
So #26, we DO ‘make a bigger mess than others’ just because we’re Jews that should not be making these messes.
It is soo sad that people think that they can do whatever they want because they are an am kodosh. i am no denying that but seriously, we need to act like one. the parks on chol hamoed are crazy. last year chol hamoed, My little brother said thank you to the ride attendent and she looked at him in shock and told us that not one person had bothered to say thank you that day!We have to make an effort to show the goyim we are the am kodesh!
#22…oh! so,so horrible, i really cant imagine any chillil hashem greater than this.
We too were at six flags great adventures in Jackson NJ. Part of the problem was that the park was open to the public as well as the yidden. Many times we act in ways that we take for granted but the non jews view as wrong. I too came home very upset at the continuing chillul Hashem i saw taking place. I am sure that the Yidden had no idea that what they were doing was bothering the non jews but I was there when the non jews were complaining to workers about the behaviour of the yidden and when they actually voiced their protests out loud to all who could here and agree. I think that six flags was also at fault to some extent because the park was not sufficiently prepared to handle the crowds they allowed in. Many rides kept breaking down or were shut for various reasons. There were extremely long lines which often leads to poor behavior because people feel ripped off if they spent the entire day and were only able to go on 3 rides. my children who in the past had wonderful times asked me to remind them next year that they do not want to return because of the dismal time they had. I was very upset because it was the only real day of Chol Hamoed that they could really do something and they did not have an enjoyable day. B”H my children know to behave properly in public but by doing so they really got to go on very few rides. The ones who cut the lines at least felt they got their money’s worth. I think that great adventures and NCSY owe an apology to the people that went and also some of their money refunded.
Telegrok – thank you for clearing that up. Phew – I’m so glad. 🙂
I think the writer should be dan lecav zchus on why people may have been doing things they shoudn’t have because I myself waited on a line there for over three hours and when I was third to next We where told that the ride broke down and will be closed for the day.
I am not the only one with that story so you should understand why people were doing things they should not have be doing.
NOT SAYING THEY WERE RIGHT!!
#26 – Of course there are goyim that behave worse than us. But we are representing all of orthodox judiasim, and by extension the Torah that it is based on, everywhere we go. We can’t just act better than some of the goyim – we have to act better than all the goyim. The Torah’s reputation depends on it.
I would like to know what heter there is to publish this. This is genuine losho hora – even if it is true. If it is not true it is motzi shem ra. Why is it that people think that you can print/publish anything that you want? Written words are clearly included in the prohibition of loshon hora. Besides that what useful purpose can there be in such an article. Yeshiva World manages to publich such an article after every Yom Tov.
I think that it would be appropriate if articles hightlighting positive actions are published and not this type of hate. We should be at least one step above the secular press.
Thank you
I agree that it’s a terrible chillul Hashem to act that way. I just wanted to make a point how disgusting and how rude the great adventures staff especially the security and gate staff. I came with a group of about 15 people Some with disabilities which included down syndrome some heart patients and some diabetics. The group leader while waiting on line to get in to the park asked security about bringing in food for the ones that needed it for health reasons only. They said ok. When we got into the park we were attacked litteraly by 4 or 5 security guards wanting to throw us out of the park because of the food. We explained very nicely that we had permission and its a must to bring it in. The security guards responded to us that they dont care about the disabled a rule is a rule. After some arguing they escorted us out of the park to get rid of all of the food. we were treated worst then dogs. I hope in the future that NCSY does not go back to great adventures because of their terrible staff.
#39 – I believe that the issur of loshon hara only applies if the negative statement is said on a specific person / group of people (ie, “Mr. Smith did this” or “the people of place x do that”), neither of which applies here. I believe this is also l’toelis, for a specific, constructive purpose (to stop chillul Hashem) and would therefore be muttar anyways. However, I am no posuk so ask your LOR and/or study Chofetz Chaim, and keep on a lookout for loshon hara!!
Dear BaalHabos
This is a perfect example of lashon Hara letoeles.
As long as there were truly things being done wrong, the writer’s intent is pure, its not hearsay, there are no exaggerations, and there are no other alternatives, I’m sure the chofetz chaim himself would publish the same tochocha (not that he would go to Great Adventures on chol hamoed)
Many people posted about being don lekaf zechus… I was at 6 flags too. However i came with a group of about 50 disabled children. We payed extra for speedpasses- as many children with disabilities have a hard time waiting in line. Some tend to get agrresive, and others have medical issues ( such as seizures) that could get aggrivated by waiting in the sun/heat for to long. The park policy allows anyone with a speedpass to enter at the exit of the ride and cut the line. In previous years, people have been very understanding and good natured about this. This year, majority of the children that came are autistic. to an outsider they look like “regular” children. However, their behaviors are anything but that. When people questioned us about cutting the lines, we were able to explain. If they didint, it seemed as though we were just a group of Jewish people cutting the line for our own entertainment…
#39 – Baalhaboss- First of all, if I am correct, Loshon Hara is when you mention names or more specifics than were written in this article. This was a general story of the frum Yidden (not all of them) who were behaving in a way to cause a Chillul Hashem. I think YWN was right to publish this story as maybe – just maybe – some people might learn from this.
#41/44: There is a prohibition to say loshon hora on Klal Yisroel.
’32 says;
So #26, we DO ‘make a bigger mess than others’ just because we’re Jews that should not be making these messes.’
Are you serious about this???? Jews are not allowed to goof and make mistakes like others??? We are human for heaven sakes.
If they would have gone around shouting and acting like idiots drawing more attention than others, you’d have a point. But this?? Yah, its pretty disappointing, however not unsusual relative to others.
Get a life!
#41, #44..wasnt moshe rabbeinu penelized for talking loshen horah against the yidden ‘veyotzio michayko vehiney metzoras kashelek’?
I was in the park that day with my family. I did not notice any yeshivish people at all. Yeshivish people as defined as people learning in Yeshiva basically full time, most cannot afford the entrance fees to the park. What I did notice was a very well dressed Chassidish woman speaking English with a Yiddish-Boro Park accent cutting the line at customer service (which had a two hour wait time) with the entire line of people including religious people yelling at her. I also noticed about 40 Syrian students, with the females dressed in pants and t-shirts making a ruckus at that same customer service line. So these are not Yeshivish people making the chillul hashem. It was all types! Don’t classify Yeshivish as unruly-middos come in all shapes and sizes.
telegrok,
ur completely insane, you have to make a kiddush hashem. And no, ur not better than everyone else
Sorry – there is a lot of positive things about frum people going to public places, but unfortunately, and it is not always anybody’s fault, there is too much trash, and line crossing. I am embarrassed to pass some of our little childrens’ playgrounds after recess, where the snack bags are all ON THE FLOOR. I am always picking up papers in the bathroom at weddings. We can’t defend this behavior by justifying it -too few garbage cans, don’t point fingers and don’t be a self hating jew. It is a real problem, i know parents and rebbeim are ‘picking their battles’ but if you don’t stress mentchlichkeit, you can’t expect to raise ‘mentchen’
#43 – Why in the world would you take 50 disabled kids to Great Adventures on a jam-packed Chol Hamoed trip?
It’s over-crowded, over-stimulating and over-priced!
Why not go on a quiet regular day when it’s empty and the kids can really enjoy themselves?
Avigail: parhaps disabled kids would like to enjoy chal Hamoed just liek everyone else?
I do not justify the behaviors, but there may be a cultural difference here. When I go to Eretz Yisroel I notice that there is not really a concept of waiting in line for a bus there. At first this seemed the epitomy of rudeness to me, but further though on the matter has changed my opinion. I was brought up as a Jew and as an American. I was taught that not to wait in a line is rude. I internalized this teaching. It is definitely not something that I learned in yeshiva. In eretz yisroel that is not what the people do. It is not wrong in eretz yisroel to not wait on line. In other cultures such as Japan, people wait on line to cross the street. It is not considered rude in america too not wait on line to cross the street. It would be considered silly to wait on line for crossing the street. Littering is not consiidered rude in all countries or places nor is not waiting in line. People need to be taught these thigs before one can consider condemming them.
What else is new – everybody has heard of the chassidim who gamble in AC in their full chassidic regalia – this is nothing new! Just look at the driving on the way up to the mountains and you will see that obviously nobody is concerned with chillul hashem.
dear telegrok, please bring at least one mareh makom to what your saying. i personally think you made it up on the spot since they only mean our good, who cares where it comes from. thats what the rules are for.
I have a great idea -I am actually motivated to contact the promoters of the events to try to implement this as well- Why not have all tickets being sold at all the heimishe grocery stores/seforim stores etc. have an accompanying note that’s short and sweet imploring all Jews who use these tkts to act like menchin (culturally…waiting in line, speaking appropriately, acting with respect to other fellow human beings…whatever). Also…a few signs posted at the entrance of the park in both Hebrew and Yiddish wouldn’t hurt and would avoid embarressing the frum Jews. Also, on all signs advertising such events, put a little short message about appropriate behavior. Probably most important however is to have respectful behavior (what’s missing for most holier than thou ppl is the respect thing) taught in school and at home -much more effective albiet longer term solution. Short term however, post it explicitly and TELL ppl how to act. You’d be surprised how many mindless ppl will actually simply listen to directions when simply given. There’s no genuine thought necessarilly going on, but hey -who cares? As long as a larger % of ppl act appropriately for that day. And no, lack of respect is not indiginous to yeshivishe/chassidishe ppl; yes it’s everywhere…but it definitely has taken a foothold in those two worlds (yes, of which I’m a part) and that reality must be dealt with if even short term as per my suggestion here. A gut yor to all -I just saw this article now, just in time for Sukkos!