[Copy of P’sak in Extended article] Maranan V’Rabanan Gedolei HaDor Shlita, Maran Rav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv Shlita, Maran Rav Shmuel Halevy Wosner Shlita, Maran Rav Nissim Karelitz Shlita and Maran Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita are signed to a p’sak halacha circulated on Tuesday stating the use of shabbos elevators may indeed constitute chilul shabbos min ha’torah, not just d’rabbonon.
The information released indicates the gedolim have ruled that due to changes in the operation of the elevators, based on expert information provided by elevator technicians and engineers, the ruling has been handed down prohibiting their use, including those under the supervision of halachic organizations. The ruling states the chilul shabbos is caused while going up or down in the elevator.
Rabbi Yisrael Rosen, of the Zomet Institute on Monday stated he does not back down from his ruling, permitting the use of the elevators, stating that he and his colleagues, and many others, base the permission for the elevators on the rulings of Hagon Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach ZATZAL, and those who follow his decisions. Rabbi Rosen added a number of points, explaining for one thing, the technology since Reb Shlomo Zalman’s rulings were handed down has not changed, and therefore, there is no reason for the new ruling prohibiting the shabbos elevators.
In addition, Rabbi Rosen questions those in the “court of the rabbonim”, explaining gedolim are obviously called upon to affix their signatures by rabbis who have access to them deciding to bring this specific issue to their attention. He asked how such a decision can be reached, quoting experts in the field, when Zomet, which is one of two institutes in the field working to find technological advances that can be incorporated into permitted shabbos use, was not contacted by any of the rabbonim who brought this to the attention of gedolei yisrael shlita. He stated, “I am not a ‘bal plugta’ with any of the gedolim” but question how such a ruling can be issued without even conferring with rabbinical experts such as those at Zomet.
Rabbi Rosen added that it is difficult for him to comment since the p’sak circulating in chareidi circles is not detailed.
Rabbi Rosen told Kol Chai Radio that he feels the gedolim at times are led by those who have access to them, pushing certain issues before them and in this case, opting to ignore the experts who address the issues for the past years, relying on torah giants such as Reb Shlomo Zalman.
Click on image to ENLARGE P’sak.
(Yechiel Spira – YWN Israel)
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19 Responses
What is wrong with Reb Moshe’s psak that a shabbos elevator under certain circumstances is OK?
First of all, it has never been unanimous among the rabbonim that the “shabbos elavator” was permitted.
Secondly, that which Rabbi Rosen contends that R’ Elyashiv and others are all too often misinformed is definitely historically correct. When asked a shaila having to do with the tzibur, these rabbonim are too often misinformed by those asking him. They then base their psak on these people whom they trusts but take advantage and don’t present all the relavent facts. Klal Yisroel is then the worse off for these deceptions.
Recently a relative of mine was hospitalized in a Jerusalem hospital. I asked Rav Levy Halpern of the “Jerusalem Institution for Technology and Halacha” about using the “Shabbos Elevators”. (He has written a whole book on the subject). He stopped me short and simply said: Insert a period between “Shabbos” and “Elevators”. His opinion was clear: “Shabbos Elevators” don’t exist.
#3 ‘ historically correct’..because you say so? can you numerate 2-3 such historically correct misinformed psaks from them so i can research the truthfulness of your statement?
Rav Elyashiv Allows Shabbes Elevators!
הרב לוי יצחק הלפרין. צילום: COL
“הגרי”ש מתיר נסיעה במעליות שבת”
סערה בעקבות פסק הלכה שהתפרסם הבוקר מאת גדולי הפוסקים על איסור נסיעה במעליות שבת • הגאון רבי לוי יצחק הלפרין ל’בחדרי חרדים’: “הפסק מסתמך על מהנדס חובבן”, “הגרי”ש לא אסר. תראו מה שכתב” • שבת של מי
שי איזנברג, כתב בחדרי חרדים
תאריך: 29/09/2009 16:53:00
הבוקר (ג’) התפרסמה בעיתון ‘יתד נאמן’, מודעה המבשרת לקהל הקוראים על פסיקה הלכתית חדשה מביתם של פוסקי ההלכה החשובים בציבור החרדי, לפיה השימוש במעליות שבת אסורות, והנוסע בהם עובר על חששות מדאוריתא. על פסק ההלכה חתומים: הגרי”ש אלישיב, הגר”ש וואזנר, הגר”ח קנייבסקי והגר”נ קרליץ.
“מעליות השבת, לפי התפתחות המדע הטכנולוגי, משתנים כסדר. והנה הובא בפנינו חוות דעת טכנית בכתב ובעל פה של טכני ומהנדסי מעליות מומחים ומוסמכים, ונתברר לנו שעל ידי השימוש במעליות אלו בין בעליה בין בירידה נוצרות הפעלות ישירות הנוגעות לעשיית מלאכה דאורייתא”, נכתב במודעה.
הפולמוס ההלכתי סביב מעלית השבת, נמשך שנים רבות, כאורך ימי חייה של המצאת המעלית. גדולי הפוסקים בעבר נתנו את הסכמתם לפתרון ההלכתי, שניתן על-ידי מכוני הלכה מיוחדים, ורבבות יהודים נסעו במהלך השנים האחרונות במעליות השבת.
מבלי להיכנס לסבך ההלכתי עליו הסתמכו המתירים, נסביר כי לאחר בדיקה על-ידי מהנדסים, התברר כי אדם שעולה למעלית אינו גורם לריבוי מאמץ למעלית, ואינו גורם לחילול שבת. יש שנהגו רק לעלות במעלית השבת ולא לרדת, גם זאת על-פי הסברים טכנולוגיים והלכתיים סבוכים.
אלא שהפסק שיצא היום, טרף את הקלפים. במכונים ההלכתיים שהעניקו את ההכשר למעליות השבת, לא מבינים על מה יצא הקצף.
הרב ישראל רוזן אמר היום, כי ההיתר נלמד על-ידי הגרש”ז אוירבעך זצ”ל, וכי הוא לא שמע על שום שינוי מאז יצא ההיתר לאוויר העולם. לדבריו, הוא לא מבין את ההתעוררות שחלה לפתע פתאום בנושא.
הגאון רבי לוי יצחק הלפרין, העומד בראש מכון הטכנולוגי להלכה, אומר בשיחה עם אתר ‘בחדרי חרדים’: “אני כתבתי ספר על הנושא. מי שרוצה יכול ללכת וללמוד את הנושא לעומקו. מעליות השבת מותרות על-פי כל גדולי ישראל עמם דיברתי, ואין בנושא שום שינוי”.
• מה בכל זאת קרה? איך יוצא פסק מעין זה?
“שמעתי שהגיע איזה מהנדס לבתי גדולי ישראל והסביר להם כי מעלית השבת גורמת לחילול שבת. כנראה המהנדס לא יודע על מה הוא מדבר. אני מכיר מאות מהנדסים שאין להם מושג קלוש בנושאים עליהם הם מדברים. על סמך זה הוציאו פסק. כשאני למדתי את הנושא, הייתי צריך למצוא סיבות למה לאסור ולא למה להתיר”.
• הגרי”ש אלישיב חתום גם הוא על המודעה, הוא נסמך על מהנדס חובבני?
“מי ששם לב לדבריו של הגרי”ש אלישיב במודעה, רואה שהוא לא כותב ולו מילה אחת נגד מעליות השבת. הגרי”ש מדגיש: ‘בענין מעליות בשבת, דעתי שאין להשתמש לא בעליה ולא בירידה’. מעליות בשבת, לא ‘מעליות שבת’. גם אני סבור שאסור להשתמש במעליות בשבת. שמעתי מאנשי ביתו שהוא לא רצה לחתום על הפסק, ולאחר לחצים כתב את הנוסח המתחמק”.
• למעשה אפשר להמשיך ולנסוע?
“כל עוד לא אשמע על מעליות חדשות שגורמות לחילול שבת, הפסק לא השתנה”.
With all respect to these Gedolim, before they say NOT to rely “al shum Machon…” wouldn’t it have been logical to call in the experts from those institutions that they had in mind with that statement(who said they were NOT contacted) to discuss all the issues with them, and to hear what they have to say, BEFORE issuing this decree?
Rav Elyashiv disagreed with the psak and wrote it’s assur to ride a MAALOT B’SHABBOS, This simply means you can’t ride an elevator it’s in normal prescribed method of usage, by pressing buttons. He didn’t say it’s assur to ride a MAALOT SHABBOS, an elevator in Shabbos mode.
Rav Elyashiv reaffirmed Rav Shlomo Zalman’s shabbos elevator hetter, and disagreed with the psak handed to him by the Askanim.
There seems to be trei tanaei (postei) aliba de Rav Levi Halperin
Ben Zvi#4 states that Rav Levi Halpern told him there is no such thing as Shabbos Elevators.
Shi quotes Rav Levi Yitzchak Halpern in todays Charedim saying that Shabbos Elevators are Mutar and that Rav Eliyahsiv sisud that “regular” elevator on Shabbos are assur.
What has changed in the technology?
#9 – Calm down. There are many rabbonim that hold of the shabbos elevator, and those who follow these rabbonim are by no means an “APIKORES GAMUR!!!”
shimen – As much as I love RYSE, and consider myself chareidi – it is well known by everyone here in EY – his main followers – that anything that you did not hear in RYSE’s name from a reliable source (=not a random pashkevil) is at best telling you to ask a shaila, and at worst not even worth the paper its written on.
With all due respect, if you want to follow Daas Torah / Emunas Chachamin as is required by Torah Law – go ahead. I am with you on that one. But not everything that someone with $100 and a creative mind *thinks* is daas torah, *is* Daas Torah, and not every “psak” in the name of RYSE is actually a psak of RYSE.
That said, there is definately room to be mevarer what the story is here
to #7 what is the source of what you are quoting?
Dovid,
NeveAliza didn’t disagree… she asked for an explanation of how the ruling was arrived at. Such does not make one an “APIKORES GAMUR.”
How is it that it’s the day after Yom Kippur and you can find it in you to throw around such terms?
The Wolf
As regards to poster #4, the Machon Tzomet design was produced in close coordination with Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach. Rav Halperin has his own institute and his own design. That is his privilege. However, the Zomet design had RSZA’s approval, so he is not only arguing with Machon Zomet, but with RSZA.
Secondly, this issue has to be seen within the broader context of the opposition that many Rabbonim have towards the underlying concept behind Machon Tzomet, which is to find ways that technology can be used to resolve or lessen certain prohibitions for the benefit of society, in situations of great need.
For instance, unlike other hospitals serving the religious public, the Bnei Brak hospital does not utilize any of the technologies that reduce certain Torah prohibitions to Rabbinnic ones. Examples are the Shabos phone, electric wheel chairs and carts for paraplegics, etc
NeveAliza is a geographic screenname and has no gender connotations.
My apologies then.
The Wolf
NeveAliza – you are compounding kefira with leitzonus and bizayon talmidei chachamim
Please point out what in Neve’s post, exactly, consisted of “leitzonus?”
Please explain how asking how the ruling was arrived it is a “bizayon talmeidi chachamim?”
The Wolf
#24 if you wouldve c’v thrown banana peels on reb moshe he woulndve have minded, so that makes it muter?
#24 – Excellent post. Its nice to see some common sense, not name-calling.
#25 – How do you know that the “askanim shilta” “did a number on the Torah community”? Do you have proof to this?
#26 – I’m sure YWN will give you all the space you need, assuming you can write a clear, intelligent post. So far all I have seen you do is call anyone who doesn’t agree with you 100% an apikorus.
#28 – I couldn’t agree with you more. Why can’t we have an intelligent discussion without all the name-calling and sarcasm? Ze v’ze divrei Elokim chaim!!
#4 is clearly a lie. All one has to do is read R Halperin’s book, in which he lays out designs for a Shabbat elevator! So how can you claim with a straight face that he said there is no such thing?
#13 please qout 2-3 who are those rabbanim and where i can follow up