The following letter was submitted to YWN, and was written by a Chasidish woman who resides next to Kikar Shabbos. This unedited letter (posted in its entirety) should be an eye-opener to all parents who have Bochrim learning in Eretz Yisroel.
NOTE: Quite a few “innocent” American Bochrim have been arrested in recent days for “innocently” standing by a Hafganah.
Dear YWN,
I write this with pain, not with any political agenda.
Some of you may know about the protests that are going on in Yerushalayim about the parking lot that is open on shabbos. What you may not know, and what you must know if your son is learning in the Holy Land, is what is happening on the streets.
On Shabbos the Eidah Chareidis had a kabbolas shabbos on Bar Ilan to protest the chillul shabbos.
On the Thursday before that, the garbage bin outside my house was torched at about 7:30. The bochrim who set it on fire, and a crowd of close to 100, sang ‘bar yochai’ for a few minutes, and then left, the fun was over. While this clearly had nothing to do with shabbos, after all, the mayor does not live on my street, and was an act of destruction, I had to live with the smoke for the next several hours. The bochrim had their fun, but we, who live on the block were inhaling black smoke, and couldn’t call the fire dept. because it is a ‘chillul hashem’. I saw a man of about 60 going back and forth with his little girl, carrying pails of water to extinguish the flames. (He had to walk half a block and go up steps, refill water, come back…) He did this, at least for two hours. There are those that burn, and those that are left to put out the flames.
We did our best to help, but when we thought the fire was out, 3 hours after it started, a spark caught again and the whole bin was in flames again. I called my rebbitzin and got permission to call the fire department. I woke up the next morning with pain in my heart and a scratchy throat, that is all. My rebbitzin told me of men and women who had to be hospitalized because they’re allergic to smoke or because of excessive smoke inhalation. I got off lucky.
On Sunday, I was walking to my sister who lives on a quiet street. Two garbage bins were burning on her street, and a group of about 15 bochrim stood around, some threw in garbage, the other just laughed and cheered. Again, the rabbonim organized a mechoa on Shabbos, not on Sunday. And they said, even when they asked people to come to the protests, that one shouldn’t burn garbage.
Last night, Monday, I heard screaming and yelling from the street. I washed my dishes. At one point, at about 10:30, I heard something heavy being dragged. I looked out and saw a group of bochrim rolling out the garbage bin from our street, to the kikar a block away. Smoke was already rising at the kikar, from other garbage bins apparently. Other bochrim were rolling more garbage bins from other blocks, some of them metal, some plastic. It stabbed my heart, I was just standing there and shaking. I watched two bochrim carrying cardboard to kindle the flames. Like many of the rest, they were wearing hats and jackets and like a very large percentage, they were speaking English. My husband yelled down to one of them, ‘what are you doing here?’ They laughed. A bochur that lives next door to us pleaded with the ones that were pulling out our garbage. They ignored him.
For the next few hours, we kept hearing animalistic screaming from the street. We decided, my husband and I, that we couldn’t do anything anyways so we would just remain inside. We went to bed with difficulty. Just as the sounds would peter out, we heard inhuman screaming again. We heard things being thrown, and metal clattering against the street. I would later see that these brave warriors were pulling barricades that protect pedestrians on the narrow sidewalks, out of the cement.
At about 1:30, I was still unable to fall asleep. Suddenly our air-conditioner, which was on to block out the noise of the street, not to keep us cool, went off and our apartment went dark. It turns out that the electricity of the entire area, including even the street lamps, was blown, perhaps because of the fire. The screaming on the street increased. I got dressed and went out to the porch.
On the kikar a block away, the bochrim were very proud that they blew the electricity of all the families living in what I believe was a two to three block radius. After a few minutes of triumphant screaming, they began singing to the tune of Carlebach, ‘Ani avdecha ben amasecha…’
The irony was so painful, I cried loudly, on the porch. My husband, satmar geshtimt, chassid of the Eidah, didn’t try to stop me.
I could go on. There were horrible sights and sounds that night, finally petering out at 2:30.
The reason I am posting, my questions are:
1)What were these bochrim thinking??
2)Where was the tzelem elokim when I heard words and sounds that should not come out of any human being’s vocal chords, especially not that of yeshivaleit? Where was the basic compassion / thought for the neighbors? Where was any sort of restraint when barricades, which are extremely important by our narrow sidewalks for safety, were wrenched out with a lot of effort? How did they have the heart to watch a small old man carrying his garbage three blocks away because that was the first place the bin was still there?
3)R’ Avraham Yehoshua of Brisk said this week when one of his bochrim were arrested, “vos tut a bochur bei a mechoa?” – what is a bochur doing by a protest? (He was talking about a real mechoa, organized by the gedolim, and he is no Zionist.) What indeed? Even if he is ‘just’ watching, why risk arrest, make a great chillul hashem, be mechazek those that are being mazik, if he doesn’t have to ? If he cares about shabbos, how about being mekabel shabbos early, as we have began doing, for Yerusahalayim? None of the rabbonim said bochrim should go, and in general, all men should not go unless told to do so by their morah d’asra. There is too much of your own humanity at risk.
4)Where are you parents? Let me ask that again. Where are you parents? Do you realize the implication of no supervision in your son’s yeshiva? A choshuve bochur next door, the one who tried to stop the garbage bin from being rolled out, told my husband this morning, “Who’s in charge that I make it to shachris on time? I slept late because of what happened here, who’s worrying that I daven?” Do you realize your sons could be mazik tens of people and no one will do anything? Do you realize that if your sons drink or smoke or watch inappropriate videos, or meet with the other gender, (we have bochrim over for shabbos seudos and there are a lot of bochrim diros in our neighborhood – believe me, I’ve seen too much…) no one is stopping them? This is a much broader issue than just what happened last night. Do you know what your sons are doing? I know he is the best boy in the universe, but who’s to say he doesn’t have unfiltered Internet in his dirah? Who is to say he didn’t get caught up with a crowd and that he didn’t scream like a maniac in middle of a city, in middle of the night? Who is to say that he didn’t join a group of likewise English speakers, to do the holy act of pulling out barricades from the sidewalk? Who is to say that he makes it on time for shachris? Who is accountable for him? He himself? – “Al taamin b’atzmecha” these bochrim need higher supervision.
We decided we’re going to do something. My husband is coming home late for lunch because he is meeting with the mashgiach of Mir and Chevron. I am calling the Gaved of the Eidah, with the blessings of my Rebbe, and going to post what I saw wherever I can.
I didn’t take pictures last night, because I was so disgusted. It’s like an embarrassing episode that you’d rather erase from your mind. Now I regret it, I would have shown the pictures to the mashgichim of these yeshivos, shown them what their bochrim were doing. If five bochrim were kicked out of yeshiva, I bet all of these shenanigans would stop immediately.
Please don’t respond with stories about shabbos and pride marches and the gedolim of previous generations. This has got nothing to do with it.
If you’re a mother, know where your son is. If you’re a friend, make sure you never justify the unjustifiable. If you’re a fellow Jew, daven for these bochrim, but never commend their actions. Daven for peace in Yerushalayim, and never stand up for those who value fun (Midnight Mir party! I heard one of the bochrim scream last night) over self respect, over basic mentschlichkeit, over Kiddush HaShem.
Sha’alu Shalom Yerushalayim.
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104 Responses
Nebech nebech. such a chilul hashem. parents that send bachurim should warn their son about such happenings.
You write ” None of the rabbonim said bochrim should go, and in general, all men should not go unless told to do so by their morah d’asra. ” . You should be advised that Rav Elyashev and the Eida called on every yid to participate . I do agree with you that these kids had no business doing Hezek on the streets , I am sure the Rabbonim will make this clear in the future .
She waited 3 hours to call the fire department, allowing an older man to try and put it out by hand, putting his life and his child’s life in danger? Even after all that she checked with a Rebbetzin before calling the fire department, KNOWING that the fire was a potential life threatening hazard?
Seriously?
Sorry, the lives of the people on the block that were endangered outweigh this woman’s opinion of chillul hashem.
Horrible.
With pain in my heart I have to say the allegations of this letter are truly not acurate firstly I was there due to the fact tht I live in eretz yisroel with my wife and kids and happened to be comeing from a realitive of mine in geula the first thing is the hafgona tht was made by the americans was not against chilul shabbos rather it was against the fact tht there are still american bachurim locked up when all the israelis have been let out secondly the power went out cause they were doing construction on the electricty thirdly the gates were pulled up bÝ a israeli and I wittnesed it fourthly the yellin and screaming was when a arab truck driver decided tht he must drive his truck where the hafgona was so he was chased away and last of all it was a hafgona tht happened to be realitvely tamed there wasn’t any violence as opposed to motzei shabbos so whoever u are get you’re facts strait before bashing american bochurim oh and just so u know there was about a couple hundred israelis so stop hateing on americans and if u want to hate on us at least do it truthfully I’m sorry to destroy you’re objective of the letter but don’t lie and write untruthful facts
Sincerely yours
A american witness
This is a very sad story and I hope that all tjhe roshei yeshivas will adress the issue right away
where are all those people complaining about the police who were doing their job!
As much as it pains me to write this, perhaps we need to police ourselves. What I mean by that is perhaps the locals should grab these b’haimas & teach them a lesson or two so they NEVER do this again.
If they cannot behave as normal people maybe the locals can make sure the animals are sent home immediately at parents’ expense?
Since this was caused by not releasing the arrested American students, then the police behavior is incitement.
where were the police while this was going on?
If the Rabbanim (e.g. Eidah Chareidis) told people not to demonstrate (riot, there really isn’t much of a difference), beyond the large demonstration under their control, then the bochrim were clearly misbehaiving.
On the other hand, if there was no clear command from the Rabbanim, then the “rioting” is a kiddush ha-shem through which the frums Jews are asserting that Jerusalem is our city, and not the domain of those who want Jerusalem to be the “secular” capital of the “secular” state. We need to remember that the growing frum presence in Jerusalem is seen by the Israeli/Zionist establishment as a major threat to their control, and any activity taken to reduce this threat (such as opening the parking lots) is aimed at the frum community, and in these cases singing around bonfires, or even throwing diapers at police, is a reasonable non-violent assertion of our desire to have a Jewish presence in Jerusalem.
I was in Yerushalayim a few days before the hafgana and I smelled smoke in Geula frequently. I asked someone what it was, since no one seemed concerned, and I was told it was burning garbage bins. I don’t know why they burn garbage, when smoke inhalation is very dangerous. It seems that this is a regular on going thing – burning garbage.
I can’t say if what the letter writer is saying about the recent hafganos and garbage burning is true, since I’m sitting in America here and don’t know what happened bichlal. WHAT I CAN SAY, THOUGH is that the other things she writes are so unfortunately on the mark. R’ Ahron Chodosh Shlit”a is a great person but let’s be honest, he can’t exactly be an effective, active Mashgiach for ka”h 4,000 bochurim. Realistically, these bochurim have no oversight on their day to day living and activities. I know firsthand from being a bochur in the Mir not too long ago, that there are many Dirahs with unfiltered internet (of course the excuse is that they need it for their DSL phone line), Bochurim are watching movies in their Dirahs, bochurim go to Internet Cafes (V’hamayvin Yavin) and Bochurim sleep all day and party all night in “town”. Not too mention those that go freely during the z’man on skiing trips up North, to Eilat scuba diving or other vacations. This is not to take away, chas veshalom from those thousands of bochurim who are shteiging away, growing tremendously and learning unbelievably. The Torah that goes on in the Mir is astronomical and the aliyahs most bochurim have during their tenure at the Mir are tremendous. The point is that sending a bochur to the Mir (and some other Yeshivos in E’Y that are large and don’t have good oversight)needs to be done with extreme caution. A bochur has to be “ready” for the Mir. A bochur has to be ready to be trusted and trust himself, that he will not fall apart, have a yeridah and possibly bring down others with him. A bochur has to be honest with himself before he goes on what his plans, and after he’s there to make sure that he can withstand it, otherwise to make the decision of returning home before more damage is done. It’s not easy, especially for a bochur who is used to having someone there to catch him when he falls (i.e. a mashgiach to be mechazek him and give him the occasional push). Parents, take heed. Know your son well and make the decision of sending him off to virtual freedom, with due diligence.
#3 You are absolutely right. I regret that I didn’t call right away. I am new here and wasn’t sure what I should or could do. We tried, my husband and I, to do whatever we could. There was no threat to any of the buildings or people around, as far as I could tell, because our garbage bin is metal. The fire dept. does not come right away when the garbages are burning because they don’t want to fight with the crowds and there is no immediate danger, aside from smoke inhalation. We are buying a hose iy’h, and hope never to have to use it.
#4 I would appreciate if punctuation was used, I can hardly get through your comment. I was not comparing this to any other protest. I was just saying what I saw and what I heard. Now parents can decide whether or not they want their bochrim to attend. I am not a mother yet but I would not want my sons at such an event. Especially if you say this was tame compared to the others. I did not write any untruthful facts. I wrote the scene as I viewed it. I don’t know about the Arab truck driver, but I heard screaming, in stages and different decibel levels, througout. There was more than one barricade removed. I heard English being spoken, maybe Israelis practicing a second language.
I in no way meant to bash American bochrim. My brothers all learnt here, we have bochrim by our seudos nearly every week, and I am usually very impressed by them. I stressed that I heard English last night to show American, Australian and English parents that they should be aware of the matzav. I always thought that garbages were burnt only by Yerushalmi Bochrim. I assume many parents think the same and they should know that that is not the case. Btw, perhaps you know where our garbage bin is? It never got returned.
#4,I CAn’t accept you as a witness because I and many others have seen this countless times. AMERICAN BOYS STEALING GARBAGE BINS FROM PEOPLE’S YARDS EVEN THOUGH THE OWNERS ARE BEGGING THEM NOT TO, AND SETTING THEM ON FIRE. UNFORTUNATELY EVERY WORD THAT THIS WRITER SAYS IS TRUE. THE PARENTS OF THESE KIDS HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT THE LIFESTYLE OF HEFKEIRUS THEIR CHILDREN ARE LIVING. THEY ARE BEING MAFKIR THEIR CHILDREN AND THEY DON’T REALIZE IT. IT JUST COMES OUT IN THE OPEN AT THESE HAFGANOS WHEN THEY BECOME PART OF THE MOB AND SHED ANY VISTAGE OF MENSHLICHKEIT THEY MIGHT HAVE HAD TILL NOW. HASHEM YERACHEM.
#4
You may have found a couple of factual discrepancies, but the general point remains the same. If you had an honest fibre in your being you should be joining this woman and condemning what went on.
I experienced PRECISELY THE SAME insanity at my apartment last night. I watched two American Bochurim light the garbage can that burnt for hours on my street. I screamed at them publicly but these bored souls were really not bothered. Consideration is just not in their vocabulary.
I wish this lady good luck in her meetings, and being in the Mir myself I would be happy if these rotten weeds were kicked out. They don’t learn a word and only give the Yeshiva a bad name.
Thank you for writing this article. You are not alone. Many of your neighbours share the same sentiments.
To #6: BOTH are wrong!!! They incite EACH OTHER!!! The police (many of them) ARE chayas! They are brutal and beat people mercilessly with out even being sure if their victim did anything! Many of the bochrim are also at fault! They too act like chayas, having no regard for Shabbas (whose kavod they are supposedly protesting for) or for other people’s property. The result of their disgusting behavior is CHILUL HASH-M which only fuels the fires of anti-frum antitudes by the chilonim. Instead of peacefully protesting like the b’nai Torah they are SUPPOSED to be, and bringing kavod for Torah, for Shabbas, and for Hash-m, – they do the opposite. I think if our Gedolim would see a video of the behavior of these bachurim, they would radically change their approach about protests.
I am very sad to hear all that ahout the boys I can not call them Bochrim becouse they are not acting like a Bocher should so I call them BOYS LIKE HERE IN AMERICA AS THEY ARE CALLED. MY OPINION is that ALL YESHIVAS I MEAN ALL YESHIVAS IN YERUSHALIAM should close there doors first and send HOME ALL THE BOYS and then start from scratch with bocherim that realy like to learn and must sign that they will not go to any protest at all only if there roshei yeshiva goes along
I am not argueing and saying that this was the correct thing but before one publishes a letter against ppl be sure to get the facts straight and it wasn’t just mir so for those of you who are bashing mir stp while you are ahead
To akuperma #10 – do you seriously think that ANY of the Gedolim would approve throwing dirty diapers at someone?!?!? The secular authorities are wrong without a doubt, but b’nai Torah have to behave like b’nai Torah or they are serving the interests of the other side.
#4 twoplustwo – your rush to accuse tne writer of lying reveals your own insensitivity and the shallowness of your own hoshkofa. You may have witnessed different aspects of the event, or have different interpretations of an occurance – but to call her a lier is uncalled for and is pas nicht.
Totally agree with the letter writer. I was not there, but I was there 10 years ago learning in yeshiva, and witnessed the exact same things. Parents who decide to send their children to learn in Israel (especially in The Mir) have to know their children very well. Some will do well there, if they are responsible young men who are interested in learning. Others, not so much. Let’s be honest here. These are 18-19 year old children with their parents thousands of miles away, under minimal (if any) supervision. Is your kid prepared to deal with that in a mature way? How many are? Are you sure you should be sending your tzadikel half a world away?
The surest way to cure this sort of behavoir is to post photos of the “vildkeit” (there are plenty of sites that would revel in this). That way, the roshei yeshiva will know who to toss out, and will make an “innocent by-stander” think twice before showing his face at a riot. With shidduchim only 12-18 months away, this will motivate these boys to think before doing something stupid.
And no, I don’t think this is loshon horoh. I think its a case of “lifnei e’ver lo sitain michshol” / “toeles” because A) the shadchnim need to know who they are dealing with and B) at 20 years old, not much else will get thru their heads.
BP Totty
DID IT HAPPEN/ DID IT NOT HAPPEN.
To argue over the past is futile.
To anticipate the future is wise.
In today’s information superhighway, doesn’t ANYONE on the block have a video camcorder? A digital camera that can take videos? a cell phone?
I’m sure if upstanding members of XXX community, Mr. & Mrs. Schwartz (not actual name) sees their gevaldige Yankel (not actual name) doing inappropriate things emailed to Yeshivaworld, something should change (assuming the Schwartz’ care about their child)
Most people will not even believe the truth unless they see it with their OWN EYES. and even then..
The behavior of these bochurim is unacceptable. There is never any justification for damaging another person or their property. This almost exactly the same thing that I wrote in my Out Of The Mailbag letter to YWN. Lighting a dumpster as well as smoking a cigarette in public are both things that harm other people. Both acts show a lack of character in the person committing them. Israeli society both secular and Charedi contribute to this problem due to the lack of anyone protesting these actions. When an American Bochur arrives in Israel and see’s Charedi looking people smoking wherever they feel like it with a complete disregard to anyone else around them, they feel like they can act that way too, even though it is totally unacceptable in back in America. People especially are Gedolim need to stand up and say harming other people is unacceptable. Learn Parshas Mishpatim and Meseches Baba Kama an Adam is a Muad Leolam. There is never any excuse for harming others and those that do if they are not punished by a Beis Din down here will certainty pay for it when they arrive at the Beis Din Shel Mahla.
I WAS A BOCHUR IN THE MIR AND I LEARNED THERE IN KOLLEL FOR A FEW YEARS. THIS LADY HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. ALL OF THESE ALLEGATIONS ARE COMPLETELY ACCURATE, FROM THE OPPOSITE GENDER THING, TO THE INTERNET ISSUE, TO THE CHILLUL HASHEM. I WAS ONE OF THOSE GUYS. WE WENT TO THE PROTESTS BECAUSE IT WAS FUN TO INCITE THE POLICE. WE WENT THERE BECAUSE WE PERCEIVED IT AS ENTERTAINMENT, AND A CHALLENGE TO SEE WHO CAN MAKE THE MOST TROUBLE AND NOT GET ARRESTED!! I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT GOES ON IN SOME OF THE MIR AND BRISK DIRA’S. (NOT ALL OF THEM OBVIOUSLY, BUT DEFINITELY SOME). ENGLISH MUSIC BLARING, MOVIES BEING WATCHED, INTERNET 24/6, TALKING TO GIRLS, HANGING OUT AT “MITZ PRI” ON FRIDAY AFTERNOON TO SEE ALL THE SEMINARY GIRLS, GOING TO THE BARS AND INTERNET CAFE’S, FINDING OUT WHERE THE GIRLS WILL BE FOR SHABBOS AND ACCIDENTALLY PLANNING A TRIP THERE, GOING TO MIXED BEACHES IN THE HEAT OF SUMMER…YES, SOME MIR AND BRISK GUYS DO THIS, AND THEIR PARENTS HAVEN’T A CLUE. I WAS THERE! THEY LEARN 1ST AND 2ND SEDER, BUT OUTSIDE THE WALLS OF THE BAIS MEDRASH…..A COMPLETE 180! THE ABUNDANCE OF CURSING THAT GOES ON…….IT’S ALL VERY REAL AND TRUE. I WAS THERE AND PART OF IT….I WAS, AND I REGRET IT, BUT SOMETHING MUST BE DONE.
Boys without supervision(American, Israeli, English Speaking, etc) will act out their worst savage-like behavior.
There is a point that has not been addressed at all. Many bochurim have been indoctrinated with hatred, hostility, animosity, biased views, stereotype attitudes towards the Israeli government and its messengers. It is therefore hard to differentiate bt. police, residents, sanitation workers, MDA volunteers and the Mayor. They can hardly wait to show their disdain lacking sechel and knowledgeable decision making.
Dear Mrs.. kikar shabbos:
Although I don’t know you, I probably do. Either I’ve bumped into you since I too live in the neighborhood or by reading your statement/letter, which clearly gave me a picture of you. YOU ARE LIVING IN THE WRONG PLACE!!! The reason why your street is called Kikar shabbos is in the merit of many thousands of garbage cans that were burnt before and the ultimate sacrifice yidden have given for this makom kadosh. Why in heavens name did you choose to live in the smetina of it all if you can’t handle it. I had the Israeli Police knocking at my door and everyone elses in middle of Motse Shabbos night trying to find culprits/ bachurim that rent an apartment in my building; they were like the KGB and I had the greatest time with all the action. I know what I got myself in to and I’m ready, just bring it on.While I’m far from being a follower from the Eida. I will call myself a zionist if you will. There\s something so warped in the statement you made. My good friend just moved back to america having lived literally on kikar shabbos for three years. I asked her how she handled it and she said. I loved it. we knew what we got into and it was like night activity every night. Please please don’t proclaim yourself a follower of the kanaish movement. Perhaps you fit into the criteria as the American Kanaim that have no problem speaking against the holiest of sites and banning their presence at it because the zionists had a hand in it; (and of course they don’t see hashem in it at all.)and will therefor take the liberty to speak against such sensitive and sentimental matters to the heilige yidden of yerushalyim in such a manner. There are greater people than you that know that with this government there is no other language. And the joke is, that they even give in at the end most of time. This is the way protest look all over the world including in Tel Aviv against chareidim. I must mention again. That you made a grave mistake by renting the apartment that you are because your shallowness doesn’t even allow you to enjoy the beauty of it. I don’t rent an apartment only a few blocks down right next to zichron moshe shul because I don’t want the smoke of garbage cans in my house. Do I condemn bachurim that normally are learning torah, and now came to eretz yisroel to try to understand the sacrifices and depth of the discrimination in this country. I gotta laugh. You probably don’t go to the kosel but fly elal. You probably measure different codes of dress better than anything else in the world. But you don’t understand the ABC’s. My husband never took part in these hafganos. It is not, absolutely not the shita of my husbands rav. But we don’t dare talk this way. There are many yidden in the world that took your comments not only for damage of garbage cans etc. But by the time they finished reading your statement forgot about the begining and strengthened their old time view of why do we have to act like this. It only causes sinas chinam etc. etc. etc. Come live here my friend. Experience the outright discrimination of a government. Where religious schools didn’t have trips at the end of the year. Have three feet of garbage high in there schools; since this govt. decided that religious schools being that there out of the secular curriculum will have to fund it alone. And all the other outright discriminations and you’ll understand that the comments of this childless woman are insesitive and completely crooked. IN addition, when I do anything I ask my rav. If you do feel that you follow the eida; did you send the rav a copy of the statement you made?? You simply Have no idea of the sacrifice of what yidden have given in this land to make it as holy as it is? No cars on shabbos. No stores on shabbos. Do you really think it came with a written agreement, a shaking of the hand a kiss and goodbye. It came with blood, toil tears and sweat and you have the audacity to criticize that. You came to kikar shabbos cuz you thought it would be fun. ANd you thought it sounds cool to tell your friends that you live on kikar shabbos. But let me tell you baby, you got it wrong. Move now, because today it’s about shabbos and tomorrow; and I mean tomorrow it’ll be about an autopsy or about the “accidental killing” of an innocent chareidi.
I will not shy of telling you my name and join me, we can have this out.
Miriam Luria
My brother in law, a pretty shtarka mir guy, read the post and was incensed by the mention of “the Mir”-
Here is his comments: A. There are def American Mir guys involved. B. I went down to two hafganos as an EMT to assist hatzolo and saw more Israeli bochurim then American, not that it’s okay for them, just saying…. C. You have over five thousand guys in the Mir, ifone hundred Mir guys attend a rally, have a girl friend, get drunk, go to bars, etc etc, they represent two percent(!!!) of our yeshiva. Two percent. Were you ever in a yeshiva without two bad apples? If ten guys from any other yeshiva went to these places they get swallowed into the crowd of so called “Mir boys”, yet they might represent forty or even fifty percent of their yeshivos…… Furthermore on a regular basis guys from other yeshivos (yes this is a fact, I’ve witnissed it myself) will say they are in the Mir if you meet them doing anything questionable. Cuz it’s a big place, it’s a great excuse….. D. Finally, some geography, Mir yeshiva is located in Bais Yisroel approx seven min walk from kikar shabbos. The vast majority of the bochurim live in Bais Yistoel naivhborhood, some in Mea Shearim, some in nicer apartements over shmuel hanaavi (aarzei habira, and maala dafna). The reason for living in these neighborhoods is their relative convenience to the Mir, assuming u walk regularly back and forth to Mir for Seder etc…. Now the fringe chevra of Mir Boys who don’t attend sederim etc, those two percent (this is all approx) tend to live further out, past kikar shabbos, or up Ba’aran towards town/Ben Yehuda. Now I’m not saying everyone who lives in Bais yisroel is a well behaved perfect guy, or that everyone who lives in kikar shabbos is a bum, just pointing out a logical trend in the demographics, end result youvget some crappy guys living right there who don’t represent the whole yeshiva!!!!!!!!!!!!!
D. A legendary American rehab yeshiva- known for such off the wall legal and illegal stunts is located RIGHT OFF OF KIKAR SHABBOS!!!!! Go figure. These guys tend to be on drugs and have anger slash aggressive tendindcies.
Conclusion, “dear world, stop judging five and a half thousand great guys, by the possible behaviour of a few of our bocherim. In addition u may take the time to notice that most other yeshivos have proportionally bigger issues, and furthermore, we learn how to cause mischif and fight cops from the noble example set by YOUR children, not by the habits we pick up in Brooklyn, Baltimore, and Toronto ….
Firstly, you ‘wreak’ havoc, not ‘wreck’ it.
Secondly, if you believe that calling the fire dept is a ‘chillul hashem’, you have serious mental issues, because an unchecked fire in Israel in the dry summer season is a vaddai sakonos nefoshos.
NeveAliza:
Please read my whole statement: We do not join these hafganos nor do we burn garbage cans. This woman is living and I state:LIVING in the wrong place for the wrong reasons. My statement was not about justifying actions of burning cans. It was simply about stating facts of the place called “kikar shabbos” and the history of it and being madgish that this woman should give her apartment over to those that are ready for these kind of actions. Simple.
Lets face it, bochurim in Yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel need alot of help. The severity of their problems is astounding: many Bochrim are just floating around, sleeping a lot by day and pubbing, partying and playing cards at night. On any given night in “town”, you will unfortunately find dozens, if not hundreds, of guys in the more than fifteen internet cafes. The majority of these guys are watching movies and/or “videos” of the kind that would make their parents cringe. Most of these guys are really good boys who want to learn and grow but are ensnared in the trap of their yetzer harah and are desperate to get out of it. Oftentimes, they are too ashamed to speak to someone who can help them. I think that we, as a people, focus on trying to solve all the world’s problems but neglect the issue that is closest to home: the kedushah and success of our precious bochurim. We need to throw a lifeline to them and assist them in retaking control of their lives and their furtures.
True, these problems do not apply to most of the bochurim learning in Eretz Yisroel. However the reality is that many many such bochrim exist, and probably the majority of their parents think that their son is shteiging away, not realizing that their son is actually encountering the most difficult nisyonos of his life.
Chevra: WE NEED A SOLUTION!
Oh how about the “Bochurim” of brisk and Mir who go gambling across the border in Eygypt, miss a few weeks of Yeshiva to go to Eilat, ATVing.How about the bochurim who rent hotel rooms to watch T.V. -American parents- as Rabbi Horowitz from project YESS has stated-You have to ask yourself is my son/daughter ready to learn in Eretz Yisroel- even the “best” of people get caught up in with who knows what/who in who knows where.Perhaps it’s time for American parents or any parents to make sure that there is proper supervision in any place that their child attends and not a hefekervelt-You may say my child is 18-21 they are big enough to handel themselves.Well then why don’t you send your child to a coed college after all they are 18-21..year olds and can handel themselves.We as yidden are not suppose to put ourselves in a makom nisayon.All parents have to make sure that where their son is going the Reibbem/mashgiach who will actually keep an eye on your son.The girls seminaries have dorm mothers -yes I know that girls do and get away with certain things.However with girls it is not as out of hand as it is with the boys.THe boys need to be held accountable.
You wouldn’t pay to feed your kids poison make sure that when you send your child away to any camp, yeshiva,school,or seminary that you are not paying to poison their neshoma!
When I learned in EY years ago a group of missionaries was discovered living in Kikar Shabbos. Fine, they were thrown out. Somehow the “organizers” of this Mechaah decided to destroy the apartment as well. This included throwing all the furniture including the fridge into the street below. All the plumbing, windows, doors were ripped out and thrown into the street. I have pictures of this (not digital of course).
There is something seriously wrong going on there. I told my wife and she agreed that non of our children should go to EY to learn. Boys and girls. The potential gains are far outweighed by the potential loss. It just aint worth it.
Any more evidence needed that many of the bochurim do better learning in American Yeshivos rather than unsupervise in EY. Absolutely not condoning actions just pointing out the obviouls. NOT all boys should be in EY.
the whole yeshiva system is messed up – our whole frum system is messed up. working is bad, learning is good. never mind that many of those in learning have parents who can’t support them and are living in poverty. never mind that many of those learning don’t really want to be there but don’t have a choice because that is just what a frum boy does. never mind that some girls might actually want a husband who can help put food on the table and feed their children. she is into gashmius if she wants anything else but a boy in learning. it is the ideal. but it is not the way it used to be – it used to be the best and the brightest – those who were meant to learn – went into learning. we are really destroying our youth – sending people off the derech by doing this. we need to reprioritize. those who are meant to learn should sit and learn. those who don’t want or unable should work – and that is a good thing. we were all made b’tzelem elokim. we all have value. it is the same thing with having large families – yes it is a mitzvah – but just to have without thinking of the reprocussions – feeding and clothing them – is just not good.
#33 This woman is living and I state:LIVING in the wrong place for the wrong reasons.
Me Think that you are living in the wrong place (Eretz Yisroel) for the wrong reasons (kanaous avodah). We live in Eretz Yisroel to Mekadesh Shem Shamayim.
Well, there is no question that leaving a bochur unsupervised in Eretz Yisroel is Hefkeirus. It still is the achrayus of the Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva that there be a patrol to stop the hefkeirus of burning garbage cans etc.
The correct spelling to the headline should read “wreaking havoc”.
i’m sorry to say, but as someone who recently learnt in EY both as a bochur and a yungerman, I think its terribly wrong to paint the yeshivaleit learning in Eretz Yisroel with such a broad brush. not only wrong but untrue. I cant speak about all yeshivos but the in the Yeshiva I learnt (Brisk R’ A.Y.) the vast vast majority sat and learnt and came back with a great toeles. Thats not to say that they didnt have a good time there or that there werent those that werent trying to shteig, but if you were to go inside yeshiva during any given seder, and see how jammed the Bais Medrash is (yes with americans, although there are plenty of Yerushalmi there too) you would immediately recognize that most people werent constantly fooling around and partying as is portrayed in some of the above comments.
I think the lesson to be learnt is that parents need to know their children and one cannot generalize by saying it is right or wrong for bochurim to be sent to EY.
#28. I wrote the original letter. There is a way to speak. Enough said.
YWN mistakenly wrote that I’m Satmar. I am not, but love the community dearly, as I love all Jews. (EDITORS NOTE: This error was corrected. We apologize.) My Rebbe does not allow anyone to go to the protests and encouraged me to call the Gaaved of the Eidah. I enjoy “night activity” as you aptly termed it, but not of destructive behavior. I tried to stay out of the whole issue. I tried not to become emotionally involved although I suffered personally from what happened. I wrote orginally that it was not about the politics. I wrote because I was in pain, and I believe that just as there is sometimes a mitzva to remain silent, there are times when it is a mitzva to speak. I did not write the title, and would never write such a title.
My points, for those that missed them, are the follows:
1)Parents have no idea what their sons are doing here.Most are doing wonderfully, and like I mentioned, I love having American yeshiva bochrim over for shabbos. Parents should just keep in the know about what is going on here and what their sons are up to. Of course, it is only the minority, but just check up that your son is not the minority.
2)Where I live is not the issue. I can say the story the way it happened. I was very careful with hilchos l”h and did this l’toeles, in the hope some parent will not bash me about not going to the kosel(I do, btw, I often daven shachris there)or not, or flying on ElAl (do that too) or about my choice to live here (It was always my dream and I haven’t looked back), but see what you could do for your sons. You choose if you want your kids to be part of the scene I saw. Hoping to be a mother myself, I would want someone to inform me if something was not correct with my child’s environment, or friends, or behaviour. If you want, you can bury your head in the sand. I am just giving parents information, in the most effective way I can.
3)I’m sorry about the reference to the Mir. I was just saying that my husband is going to speak to the mashgiach, not implicating them in any way as causing any of this. They are just the biggest yeshiva, k’h, and therefore a logical place to start.
4) Bochrim out for fun should be allowed outlets, such as biking, weightlifting, etc., in yeshivas designed for them. They should not be in Mir or Brisk or R’ Nechemia Kaplan. They should not be allowed to represent our community with despicable behavior. They should not be allowed to burn garbage. They should not be allowed to throw diapers. They should not be allowed to tear out barricades. If you want fun, you don’t destroy. There is a limit to what you could do to entertain yourself.
I have a lot more to say, but I am exhausted. I just walked from Sanhedria to Geulah, and was inhaling smoke the entire time. Last night, I didn’t get any extra sleep.
You can continue to post comments, assuming things about people that doesn’t stand up to reality, and defending the undefendable, but I don’t understand. Why does anyone have an issue with saying something is wrong, and working together to rectify the problem?
Why is it that Israelis can’t take responsibility for their problems? Tznius; it’s the American’s fault. Gashmiyus; yup, Americans at fault. Now the time honored tradition of Yerushalmis trashing their own neighborhoods; once again – the Americans are at fault. Ma’am: look in the mirror.
bsd
What are this boys doing with stones at their hands that’s a much worst issue. They come to Israel to become murderers or to learn?(isn’t that an object that could kills H’V”?)
lakwoodr-Not all boys who go to E”Y are involved in trouble but enough are.Therefor a stance must be taken to prevent this. How about those bochurim who get mixed up in who knows what but are still learning!There are boys who learn but watch movies! We can’t bury our heads in the sand.There has to be a system established in which rebbeim/masgichim ect.can check up what bochurim are up to without being to controlling!Nowdays you can look like a good bochur but not really be one!
I completely agree with the writer.
I was at the Kabbolos Shabbos on Bar Ilan, and I went to the mokom hachillul on Shabbos afternoon also, at 17:00.
A few Yerushalmi bochurim who made it there (most were stopped at Shivtei Yisroel – HaNevi’im, in front of Misrad HaChinuch) were simply shouting “SHABBOS, SHABBOS”. That’s all they do. They shout “SHABBOS, SHABBOS” and may engage in ‘civil disobedience’ such as blocking roads. However, they will NOT light fires, and will NOT throw stones or other objects at the police.
The only ones who do these things are the Israeli and American ‘shababnikim’. They should be locked up, thrown out of the country and be forbidden to enter for 10 years (the foreign ones), and be forced to pay for the damage they caused.
Even in my neighborhood (Givat Shaul) youths burned garbage bins on Friday. We had a horrible stench all through the neighborhood for a while also. I called the Fire Dept right away and they put it out after some 15 minutes.
I must note that for anyone who wants his boys to learn in a good yeshiva without a lot of troublemakers, Ner Moshe might be very interesting. I don’t know much about it, but I’ve been living pretty much next to Yeshivas Ner Moshe for almost 4 years (close means 10 meters away from their beis medrash) and I have *never* had any problems with the bochurim from there. No loud talking at night, no noise on shabbos, no rioting. As far as I can tell, Ner Moshe has the finest bochurim in the entire city. It’s located at the corner of Amram Gaon and Baal HaSheiltot streets in Givat Shaul.
Regarding the headling of this article: if the bochurim were wrecking havoc at the hafganos, then that would be a good thing, since they would be “destroying” or “breaking” havoc, e.g., they would be disabling, or stopping, the chaos.
My guess is that the author of the headline meant to say, “wreaking” havoc.
Now imagine how much these kids could accomplish if they stayed inside studying, instead of burning trash.
Seriously, it reminds me of LA, or Newark or DC in the 1960s. The yeshivos should track the bochurim who are causing these life-threatening troubles (yes, cutting power is life-threatening for people who rely of electrical medical equipment) and kick their bums straight home.
There was construction thts y the power went call the power company if u dnt believe!!!!
To the writer:
I understand that you had great intentions. I also understand that although we don’t know if we’ve ever met, we witness the same scenes every friday night down geula which is heartbreaking. And I do agree that unfortunately many parents have no idea what their sons are doing. But at the same time we must equally stress that there is a huge percentage of boys that learn in the above mentioned yeshivos and others that belong in eretz yisroel. What’s happening is that the readers are justifying their judgement against learning in eretz yisroel by these statements. There is no other experience as amazing as learning torah in eretz yisroel and at the end: look how many yungerleit, thousands of them come back to set up beautiful homes. How can we mock something like this so easily. While unfortunately I must agree that every year there are these new droppings of boys from different communities where their parents really don’t have a choice, no power over them that come here and unfortunately busy themselves with wrong stuff. But you have to understand that many of the bachurim that were arrested on shabbos are special boys. I myself know one. Witnesses say he was just standing there. It is clear, you can even view on you tube that these protests started out peacefully and the police took action first against this. Those protests on thursday were as a response. While I completely don’t approve. I will say , that it’s hard for me to put myself into the shoes of the friends of a bachur that innocently is sitting in a dark cell; with a language he doesn’t know etc etc. I don’t know if
it’s fair to condemn them on the other hand there are plenty of bachurim, israelis alike that are looking to spend their times fighting etc. etc. But I wouldn’t put these bachurim in that group.
Also, what americans perceive as chillul hashem is so different here. You just need to watch one clip of a knesset session and you understand that the level of behavior between two parties or races etc. etc. is so different than in the whole world. There’s certain language, and behavior that these people hear easier. It’s not a language or behavior that westerners are used to. In the knesset they can also pick a member up by his hands and knees and force him out because he interrupted the speaker of the house and he kicks and screams and curses etc. it’s a different mentality completely. again doesn’t justify the actions of burning stuff but they feel that at the end the city pays for it’ even if they don’t want to so they need to think about these controversial decisions before. But I’m still left with my question: “why don’t you move from there???? it’s not ending tomorrow as I said.” that is the place of hafganos and that is the way of the land.. nothing to do about it. I’m looking for a good neighbor. Come join me.
To Nechamastzion:
I am pleased that you wrote this original letter, as it has highlighted to the few that are unaware that sending/having children in Eretz Yisroel IS potentially very dangerous. May you be zoche to have many children of your own Besho’o Toivo, and merit that they grow up B’Derech HaTorah and with Yiras Shomayim.
Due to the fact that you do not (yet) have children of your own and do not have teenage children, let me tell you a little secret. A parent cannot and MUST not tell an older teenage child what to do! However well brought up a child is, they have their needs, requirements and curiousities. I have Bli Ayin Haraa 10 children, all B’H Yerei Shomayim, I believe that the reason for this is obviously Siyata Dishmaya, but also due to never saying the word NO.
There are times when a child must be told not to do certain things, but the word “NO” is poison. We as parents of our children discuss it with the child and between ourselves infront of the child. This way the child realises themselves that it is not a good/sensible thing to do.
Why am I mentioning the above? To keep tabs on a child does not mean that you can tell them what and what not to do. I have 2 sons in EY and being foreigners their temptation to experience the hafgonos is immense. Can I tell them not to go? Absolutely not! It would reduce my capabilities for the future. I said that they should go to the organised hafgonos ie. Friday night(even though in my heart I didn’t want them to attend at all), and not get involved with the violence that would obviously and sadly ensue. They listened to me, went to the Friday night one, got the feel and they are happy. Ironically one of my sons were arrested Motzoei Shabbos in Bayit Vegan whilst taking money out of a cash machine some distance away from any action, on the pretense of throwing stones at the police. He was totally innocent as were most of the Kol Torah bochurim who were hauled out of bed at 2.30am.
Parents, beware not to dictate to teenagers!
It has been many years since I learned in Eretz Yisroel (19 years ago), I don’t believe much has changed other than the numbers are bigger. The vast majority of bochurim in Brisk and Mir are very fine boys who behave appropriately. There are enough such boys that even if a small percent behave inappropriately, it gets noticed. I also think that bochurim from smaller yeshivas with greater supervision will claim to come from Mir or Brisk so that they don’t get into trouble in their own Yeshivas.
Miriam Luria, your post is ridiculous and I suggest you move since you are clearly not worthy of living on holy ground. “Night activity every night”? We are talking about living Bekedusha V’Taharah, not sleepaway camp.
I think #4 hit the hammer on the nail i know forsure they were protesting cause they did not let out the american buchrim from jail my freind was one of the guys in jail.
basyisroel2 – i dont entirely disagree with you. my point was that it is wrong to be motzi la’az on thousands and tens of thousands (through out the years) of serious and choshuva yeshivaleit because of the actions of others who are in all probability a small minority.
As for your idea of rebbeim/mashgichim, i tend to think that there isnt much a rebbe or mashgiach could do at that point. we are not talking about teenagers here but rather adults in their early 20s. What I do think is that if anything would work it would be a parent knowing his/her son and (perhaps after consulting with the bochur’s rosh yeshiva) deciding if EY will be a step up or a step down.
The American bochurim should be let out of jail immediately. They should be taken in leg shakles with their hands cuffed, directly to Ben Gurion Airport and deported. The press should be called in to photograph them both as they are leaving Israel and arriving in America. Their names should be published along with the names of the Yeshivas they were learning in and the communities their families daven in.
Sounds tough. Yes it is but those of us who live here are fed up with American bochurimm coming here to learn how to set fire to trash cans, swear at the locals and behave in a generally untzniusdik way.
Make an example of them and make sure the others all know what is in store for them if they behave like animals.
I only know some fine young men who learn or who have learned in the Mir, namely my sons and nephews. They are serious learners and I have never heard of the above allegations, such as the boys going to hafganos, watching TV, gambling etc. I trust my sons to do what they are supposed to and that is to learn Torah. As some of you have said, there are bad apples in every bunch, including Lakewood.
you cant always blame the american buchrim!!!
i lern in mir and i can tell you that theare are very few bochrim who the article is talking about… mabey 15 bochrim out of 4000!!!! the reson they are the most heard is due to the fact that they are in e.y. for a short while, and are not used to hafgonos so they get very exitid and make the most noise. even thru many attend they are standing on the side and watching, again becuse they never saw this and it intrests them.
and by the way there is not 1 ruv who said to go to the “hafgnos” that guys got arested, they only said to go to a mechah wich took place friday night by bar ilan. those “hafgnos” where started by very board lowlifes.
true i realy can understand the writer being that my window is rite next to a garbige bin wich is always on fire… but to blame all mir bochrim is just not rite
#52 Chilul Hashem is the same in every place. Since the culture of Israel is brazen, in your face, loud, disruptive, etc,- that does not allow the ‘pleasantness of torah’ to plummet.
TO ALL WHO HAVE POSTED AND READ THIS ARTICLE AND SPECIFICALLY THE WRITER HERSELF,
I AM A 19 YR OLD BACHUR CURRENTLY LEARNING IN ERETZ YISROEL, NOT LEARNING IN THE MIR. YOUR ARTICLE BOTHERED ME SO SO MUCH I CREATED A LOG-IN JUST TO COMMENT AND VOICE THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH OF THE RECENT EVENTS AND NOT THE FAIRY TALES THAT HAVE BEEN WRITTEN! I WAS PRESENT BUT DID NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE MONDAY NIGHT HAFGANA.
FIRST OF ALL, ALL THE FIRES WERE LIT BY YOUNG ISRAELI’S NOT ONE BY AN AMERICAN BACHUR, I ASKED ANY OTHER BACHUR WHO WAS IN THE AREA AND THEY ALL SAID THE SAME THING.
SECONDLY, YOU CLAIM BACHURIM WERE ‘ANAMLISTICLY SCREAMING’, ONCE AGAIN FALSE, NOT ONLY WAS THERE NO SCREAMING, THE WHOLE HAFGANA WAS PEACEFUL WITH NO PHYSICAL OR VOCAL TURMOIL.
THIRDLY, THE CLAIM A KUMZITZ STARTED AT 1:30 AFTER BACHURIM BLEW THE POWER, IS AGAIN PURE FALSEHOOD, BECAUSE NOT ONLY DID THE POWER GO OUT BECAUSE OF NEARBY CONSTRUCTION, THE POWER WAS BACK ON AT 1:00. I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I WAS IN BED AT 2:00.
ON YOUR LATER COMMENTS OF HEFKARUS THAT HAPPENS IN ERETZ YISROEL, WHO ARE YOU TO GENERALIZE MINUTE AND SECLUDED INCIDENTS, YOU HAVE A REAL NERVE TO EXAGGERATE AND CREATE CURCUMSTANCES THAT DO NOT, AGAIN DO NOT EXIST ON A NEAR-CONSISTENT BASIS. THESE PROBLEMS ARE EQUALLY BAD IN THE STATES. ON THAT NOTE, ANYWHERE IT IS A PROBLEM.
IN TRUTH, THE BIGGEST CHILLUL HASEHEM WAS CREATED BY YOU, SAYING IT HAPPENS SO CONSISTENTLY IN ERETZ YISROEL.
MANY MANY BACHURIM HAVE TAKEN THIS POST PERSONALLY AND ARE DISGUSTED BY THIS ARTICLE AND ARE HURT BY THE BLATANT FALSEHOOD.
THANK YOU.
#57 I would rather get photo ops of the Israeli charadeim who are part of the tzinus squad, rock throwers at Egged buses, burn up CDs that are not to their liking.
The Americans are oatmeal compared to the hot chili of Israelis.
lakwoodr- I agree with you don’t get me wrong i know that there a lot of bochurim who are shteiging away in E’Y or wherever they learn.THat’s wonderfull my point is not to knock bochurim.I admire bochurim who are shteiging away.However,there are boys who are really good people who get chapped by the yetzer hora especially when they know there is no supervision.This is something that a parent or a Rosh Yeshiva may not be able to tell this.For example : You have a very eidele bochur who shteigs away however he is away from home his yetzer hora can get the better of him which nobody can predict ,as they say”When the cats are away the mice come out and play”.I know that every person has nisyonos every day and at the end of the day every person has to make a choice.There are certain things that can be enforced like no internet in anyone’s dira.Mashgichim can go around and check to make sure no internet is being instaled.Therefore the “bochurim” who are on the internet will find ways to do so , however the good bochurim who happen to be in the same dirah their yetzer hora doesn’t have to get the better of them.This may not get rid of all the problems as people find all sorts of ways to do things.However this will put a pachad into the bochurim because they will know that at any second a mashgiach or a rebbe can walk in and if they are on the internet or watching bad movies then they are O-U-T -out!I understand that mashgichim/Roshei yeshivos/and Rebbeim can’t all be investigators.they can however have control of what is being brought in to boys dirah’s such as movies,internet..and such.whatever the boys do, watch, or see outside of the yeshiva they can’t always control.They can say that in the begging of every zeman say that if we ever catch a boy or find out that a boy is for sure doing xy and z then we will kick him out(this is after the matter was investigated).
To 13-(author of this article),
Did it ever occur to you that the parents and yeshivos don’t care? There are plenty of yeshivos here were bochurim do whatever they want. It’s very altrusitic to think you can change the problems, but I don’t think it’s very realistic. Maybe the problems with bochurim are more obvious in EY, but we got plenty here, just read YWN every couple of days.
As far as the yisoorim that you and your neighbors are having -my advice is simple- your husband should get together with a couple of gezuntah neighbors and you should purchase a bunch of fire extinguishers. If bochurim come and burn stuff, this fire brigade comes and puts it out almost immediately. Then they should stand around and tell or scream (if they have to) that everyone should go home. Trust me, most of these bochurim are skinny and frail and will be intimidated by a bunch of big guys. They might go to another block to burn, but if that block hears about what you’re doing, maybe they will do the same. After awhile, if all the neighborhoods don’t put up with this garbage (pun) burning, then the boys will find something else to keep them busy. It seems like they have plenty of treif activities acc. to some of the posters here. Maybe, some of them will find good outlets to do with their time.
Don’t expect other people to solve your problems for you, it usually doesn’t happen. You make the type of histadlus I wrote here and then you’ll have siyatah d’shmiyah!
#39 onlygoodnews, what’s the price of rice in China???!!!
A lot of space seems to be dedicated to discussing where the writer should be living instead of discussing the issue at hand. Perhaps I am also just a “shallow” American, but I fail to see how burning garbage and waking Yidden up at 2:30 AM show the goverment the correctness of any cause. I fail to see how taking someones ANYTHING and not returning it isn’t stealing. I sure wouldn’t call it a kidush Hashem. I would also like to know what time these “fine Yeshiva boys” go to shachris and shiur if they are up “doing Rebonon Shel Olam’s work” at 2:30 in the morning.
I am constantly amazed that people send young children (and I do think 18 or 19 is young) to the other side of the planet with out supervision. I also wonder what kind of upbringing these boys had that they don’t find a problem with taking other people’s things and destroying it.
I am sure that the majority of Mir boys are good boys. Out of 4,000 there is bound to be some bad apples, but again, how did these boys come to be this way?
the letter writer write that she didny call the fire department bec of chillul hashem. she didnt call bec in e.y. whoever “calls” the fire department has to pay they arent volunteers
as a father that has sent 4 kids to Eretz Yisroel I warn all of them if they hear or see a hafgana run the other way. you could be totally innocent but if the cops happen to catch you and find out you are an American they will beat you to a pulp and lock you up with the biggest lowlifes for a week without letting you call anyone. it happenned to a friend of mine years ago and he tells all my kids about his experience.
the “vild” behavior shown by these bochurim is nothing new. smoking ,drinking and chutzpa has become the norm among many yeshivas including Brisk, Mir etc. then they come back to America and have the chutzpa to make rediculous requests when it comes to shidduchim. the letter is right on the button for what goes on in and around kikar shabbos. try davenning once at 9:30 am in zichron Moshe and see the future long time learners davenning
The police should have been called to the scene immediately.
basyisroel2- once again you make a good point, although I think that the discussion here is more about the partying, hafganos and general unsupervision that goes on. Internet and bad movies are, in my humble view, a totally different issue.
One more point about the hafganos. I think that there are probably many more american spectators then there are participants. I have to admit that there were hafganos that i stood a block away and watched what you’d call “Cops and Robbers Level 10”. And to be honest i’m not sure that you can blame young adults for wanting to watch. And yes that may not be the best thing a bochur can do with his time (nor the safest!) but thats how young men are and I dont thing its the end of the world. They would most definitely do the same if there was a riot by non-jews in brooklyn.Again I am referring to those who really do stand by and just watch.
Please all, realize that you are speaking about the great Yeshivas Mir. You are also bad mouthing the concept of sending American boys to learn in Eretz Yisroel. Please realize that it is possible that due to your comments, a boy who had tremendous potential did not go to learn in Eretz Yisroel, where he would have grown in greater leaps and bounds, because his mother read your words and got scared. If this happens, it will be on your Cheshbon, and I do not believe anybody will be envious of you.
#’s 1 through 68 keep up your excitement and use it to to something special for Hashem. Again, I can’t say it enough, look at the YW gedolim photos and try to visualize what Rav Elyashiv or Rav Feinstein or Rav Shteinman or the Great Rebbes would do now, it’s pashut!!! They’d continue serving the One Above.
Kul Tuv
This situation is all very frivolous. Medinat Yisrael is a sovereign democracy that has elected officials running the country. Daas Torah does not run Israel. Moshiach has not appeared yet. If the municipality of Jerusalem wants to open a parking garage on Shabbat in a Chiloni area who are the charedim to protest. If it was done lhachis that’s one thing but it wasn’t.
To the rebbitzen who wrote this letter to yeshiva world. This accomplishes absolutely nothing. If you want to be a kanoi go to the Rabbonim not Daas Yeshiva World. Also if you want a quieter existence don’t live right in the middle of kikar Shabbos more to a quieter neighborhood. Also Yeshiva bochrim don’t need your permission to have internet or tv in their diras.
One more thing what does anyone who writes a letter to Yeshiva World accomplish. So seminary tuition is too much, or people smoke in the Mir. What is Yeshiva world going to do about it. Stop complaining and by the way you shouldnt be criticizing bochrim for using the net when you yourself are using it.
#67-I didn’t pay and they did come. I had no idea that you had to pay and so far haven’t gotten any bills.
I have to applaud comment #61. Finally a response written in comprehendable english and in a “bekovodik” manner. The points he makes are very accurate. It is primarily not Americans! There were no “animilastic screams”! The author got a bit carried away which led to her exaggerating the situation. I too learned in EY and lived there for several years post marriage. I too breathed the “smoky air” and had to close the window to my babies room so she wouldn’t breath in the smoke of the garbage bins lit on fire outside our window. I too was kept up by yelling – I repeat yelling (not animalistic screaming) and was inconvenienced by traffic delays that were created. I too agree that there are SOME bochurim who do not belong in EY unsupervised (thought that is not exclusive to EY yeshivos) . However, I did NOT have the absolute AUDACITY to write such a letter generalizing Americans in EY and fabricating all sorts of scenerious so as to entertain the readers of YW whothey cluck their tongues at the foolish parents who send their kids to shteig in EY. We have gedolim. We have roshei yeshivos. I realize they may not be aware of evreything that is going on but don’t think the “hefkeros” of EY was not brought up to them. Yet they still encourage most bochurim to go learn in EY. I was there. 99% of the bochurim are absolutely shteiging. Talk of internet, girls, music etc is an absolute minute percentage. Horrible? Yes! But not as terrible as ruining the reputation of countless others. So – dear NechomasTzion- please grab another box of tissues and use your very active imagination to write a entertaining novel for all to read.
I thank you for giving us something to talk about at our shabbos tables.
I apologize on behalf of the few that pained you as much as you say. I assure you that you “got them back” . I know this wasn’t your intention but you succesfully were mekayim motzei shem ra in the utmost fashion.
#61 You forgot to turn your Caps off.
I understand that you are upset. Don’t ask how I guessed.
The problem with knee-jerk reactions, they say, is that knee caps tend not to have very high i-q’s. You missed my objective entirely.
We are arguing over word semantics, and time.
I did not say American bochrim lit the fire. In fact, if you read carefully, I only said that the fire was lit, I did not see who did it, nor did I pretend to know. I did say that American bochrim were represented there. I did not write the title,and as I wrote earlier, would not write the title.
There was screaming througout the night. Maybe that is peaceful according to you, but the screaming I heard. As I wrote, I was trying to go to sleep. I guess when you stand outside, it sounds different, but as I was trying to fall asleep, and with an A/C on to block out the noise, I still heard an awful lot. On and off, high and low, but it didn’t sound like the middle of the night. At 12:35, and I know this time precisely because I looked at the clock and spoke to my husband, the screaming intensified into a frenzy. It was not the only time, I am just mentioning it as you are very makpid on getting it exact. I even said something to my husband about the new version of tikkun chatzos.
Througout, I wrote, ‘about’. I am not a journalist and did not write or take pictures by the event. Afterwards, in my quest to fix things, I decided that parents should be notified. I wrote ‘about 1:30’ Fine, so it was 1:15 or 1:23. Have it your way. There was a kumzitz. I don’t know who was responsible for the power outage, but there was a kumzitz. If your interested, I can tell you the program, exactly which songs were sang.
At 2:00, when you were sleeping, I still heard a lot of noise. The screaming was mostly over, but rose every once in a while. I must admit that again, I am not sure exactly of the time, because I didn’t make note of it, and the sounds were echoing in my head for a long time after. Suffice it to say, at about 2:25 I hung up from a phone call to my mother and my mother heard some of the shouts over the phone.
The reason I wrote about what happened was because I want parents to know what happens, sometimes, not by all bochrim, on the streets here. This was a good example because there was no police and it was not organized by the rabbis. Cars went around all Monday that there was being a protest in front of ‘Satmar Yoel’. Actual quote. The protest began on Rechov Yoel, where the shul is situated but had nothing to do with Satmar. Rabbi Teitelbaum, the Rav of the shul, not only didn’t endorse the event, he actually condemned it and didn’t want any of the protestors in his shul.( I would call the loudspeakers ‘false and misleading’) The hafganos spilled over from there to other parts of Yerushalayim. Or started independantly.
Again, there was no police, and it was not organized or signed by any rabbanim.
My question is, what was the point? Yeah, I know there are innocent bochrim in jail. How about saying tehillim for them? (The trial for one of the bochrim we know is today. Please be mispallel. I don’t know if he wants his name out.)Burning garbages? In middle of the city? Did I put them in jail? Can I do anything to help you? I must inhale smoke? Tearing out barricades? Throwing items? Blocking traffic? Where does all that come in?
My question to you, a bochur that attended is:
-What did you think you were going to accomplish?
-If you didn’t think there was a constructive purpose to act destructive, why were you standing by? Don’t you realize that the extra attention gives the mazikim encouragement to go on?
-“vos tut a bochur bei a mechoaa?” R’ A.Y.of Brisk said this about a real protest by the Eida. You think that this scene, which was not about the Eida, is somehow better?
-Did you daven shachris on time Tuesday morning?-don’t answer. Just asking. I know serious bochrim who did not even ‘stand by and do nothing’ who missed shachris because of the late night noise.
I am really interested in hearing your answers, besides for the last one.
About your allegations that I am getting carried away in my accusations of bochrim here:
1)I love all Jews, and daven for them constantly.
2)Because I love all Jews, when I see some of them behaving destructively, I will do whatever I can, and I am limited, but I will do whatever I can, to help. I felt, in this situation, that blowing the whistle and calling rabbanim would perhaps help. So I blew the whistle and have an appointment, as my husband has, with different rabbanim.
3)I did not mean to taint innocent bochrim. I am just talking about a small group that are a result of no supervision. As I said, never justify the unjustifiable. I agree that they are a small minority. I even said that. But they are wrong and must be stopped, even if things are worse in the States. (I don’t think it is, but cannot argue) It really has nothing to do. If you see a problem, fix it, and don’t say there are worse problems, because then nothing gets done.
Whenever a problem is exposed, there is always the danger of overexposure. Meaning, when people wake up about abuse, and start discussing it, before you know it, it seems like everyone is abusive. I feel bad, but there must be discussion anyways. Obviously, the discussion must be truthful and should not maximize the problem. But something must be said. I only said what I saw and did not quote any news sources or say what I heard from friends that live througout Yerushalyim. (I could write a book with their stories, but hope to write in the future only more positive things) People must know of the tremendous hefkerus that I see, if they have children in E”Y. If you are wise, you won’t take it and paintbrush the whole community, but you will quietly make sure it does not apply to you or your loved ones.
Again, my apologies if anyone was hurt. I have nothing against American bochrim. I am American myself and I married an American bochur (granted, I metamorphsed him out of that title when we wed). My brothers all learnt here, as did my brothers-in-law. They learnt in Mir, Brisk (both) R’ Nechemia Kaplan, and other yeshivas.I have nothing against, nor wrote anything against, any of these yeshivas. I wrote that bochrim who are out for fun don’t belong in these particular places. I don’t think anyone serious disagrees with me.
Point being, I wrote this to inform, not to bash.
My mother’s response was actually what encouraged me to write this. She had no idea. She comes here often and actually, to the intense mortification of my brother, visited his dirah. But she had no idea.
Parents should have an idea. If you’re clueless, you can’t be mechanech. If parents want to protect their children, they must be computer savvy. I know a wonderful couple that is just a little bit old, and allows completely unfiltered internet in their house, where teenagers have complete access. If someone would direct them to one ugly sight, perhaps they would be cured. If someone would tell them of one person who is addicted and is ruining his/her own life, perhaps some change would be affected. (I tried saying it nicely, but they didn’t get my jist. I have not choice but be more blatant.)
I am not telling parents what they should do. I am just saying my story. And I wrote it accurately, as I saw it.
If a non citizen of a country commits a crime he will either be deported or be put in jail. In Japan, bochrim are sitting in jail. In America non citizens who commit crimes are deported daily or held in prisons until a deportation can be arranged. If these American bochrim are committing crimes in Israel-and property damage is a crime-they should be appropriately punished. If a bunch of illegals came to your neighborhood in America torched your garbage can-I assure you that the police, firemen and INS would be called pronto!
I wonder how many of the above have witnessed this personally.
Well I did. I am an ultra frum chassidishe yungerman (using filtered internet for parnassah), and believe me these wild beasts who are burning garbages deserve the most serious treatment by Israeli law inforcement.
It is wll known, and I have seen it with my eyes, that all the damage done in kikar hashabbos is done either by American bachurim and by shabaniks, not by the Yerushalmi kana’im!
I know of a chasheva Rosh Yeshiva in Y-m, upon hearing of a talmid of his yeshiva who messed with the police, the Rosh Yeshiva told the parents that “Baalim metaplim beneveilah”!
I, who only passed kikar hashabbos, almost chocked of the smoke, and I could only imagine what the families with the many small children suffer.
Of course, the other accusations this woman writes regarding the American bachurin in the Litvishe Yeshivos in Y-m, is tragically true.
These came here to have fun! That’s the fact! (Although there probaly is a minority of them who learn seriously…)
Parents! You have been warned!
#78:
why don’t so many people drive their cars through geula??? because they know traffic is a mess. Kikar shabbos always has action. I suggest that you too with the writer move to some other part of yerushalayim or don’t pass kikar shabbos because chances are you’ll be met with smoke in your nose. There’s always something going on there and that’s the fact. I SUGGEST THAT THE READERS ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT DON’T LIVE IN ERETZ YISROEL SHOULD AT LEAST TRY TO PRACTICE THE ” וראה בטוב ירושלים” From one that for many years is witnessing these hafganos and has lived only in geula. The american serious boys are almost never there and if yes they’re just watching. There are unfortunately a huge huge amount of troubled teens in yerushalayim ; a collection of many troubled chutznikim amongst them. On a friday night when they’re spitting papitas on to the holy ground of yerushalyim and talking loud etc. you hear a mix of ivrit, yiddish and english. They have a way of always just meeting. Bachurim that are learning in eretz yisroel should only be encouraged. If I mentioned before that instead of looking down and complaining at what is going on in the area I make it positive and call it night activity. #54/papper: I’m probably a much busier person than you and I will post one comment since I will not waste my time on such petty talk but I’m living in this area because I don’t have a choice and I live a very peaceful life. As I mentioned: we don’t take part in these hafganos. But instead of criticizing and complaining I accept it with a lighter attitude. If you’d like to compare my level of living qualitywise here in eretz yisroel we can one day but I wouldn’t want to shame you. If you misinterepeted and took one sentence out of a whole statement you suffer from serious selective hearing. NO ONE WILL CHANGE ERETZ YISROEL AND AS SOME WRITERS HAVE MENTIONED YOU ARE CAUSING A GREAT AMOUNT OF CHILLUL HASHEM. The fact in kikar shabbos remains as I keep on mentioning: IT IS THE DESIGNATED SPOT FOR HAFGANOS. THESE HAFGANOS HAVE BEEN HAPPENING FOR YEARS AND IF SOME AMERICAN YOUNG MAN OR WOMAN DON’T LIKE IT. I SUGGEST YOU MOVE FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE.THE WRITER FEELS A RESPONSIBLITY:
I have just left first seder in yeshivas mir yerushalim and just figured that I would let all those bashing the mir and other yeshivos that the olem is personally insulted by all the bashing going. So everyone we beg you its not our place to have these discussions about yeshivas what do we know ? Are we rabbeim? Are we mashgichim? Yes if you have a problem bring it to the rosh yeshivas I’m sure they will listen! But to go ahead and make it public is none of our business. So please this blogg is only goin to lead us to lashon hora richuls and motze shem ra and to #78 you have to ask mechila on every bachur in eretz yisroel you call yourself frum? Say that a minority learns? Well I hope gd helps you cause those statements are uncalled for and ps why do u have to justify you’re kosher internet? Y the guilty consience
To Kigelfresser #53:
I wasn’t there, so I can’t speak for the accuracy of any comments or indeed, the original article.
But I want to say this. You are DEAD WRONG! If parents don’t “tell” their kids/teens what to do (my definition is different from yours) said parents are creating monsters.
So how do parents “tell” their kids how to act? It’s very easy. Firstly, they lead BY EXAMPLE. Secondly, they make it clear from when the child is very young that some things are non-negotiable, as long as the child is under their roof & being supported by them.
What is so frightening about setting standards & limits? Are you afraid you won’t be your son’s “friend”? Well, here’s something new to consider. Your kid has plenty of friends. What he NEEDS is a respected, loving, authority figure, one on whom he can rely in times of crisis. He needs a PARENT!
Obviously, Mr. Kigelfresser, (your SN says it all…grob!) you don’t know how to be a parent if you are so afraid of your kids; you & all the other parents out there (American, Israeli, Russian, Brazillian, whatever!) who don’t set limits & who don’t have decent expectations for their children in terms of behavior.
The author of the article is correct: parents SHOULD know what their kids are doing & who their friends are. Yes, older children are not thrilled about Mama or Papa checking up on them in Yeshiva, but we are still doing it with our son (by now it’s infrequent.) He suffers in silence, occasionally protests that he’s a “big boy now”, but even he acknowledges that that’s what has made him into the mentsch he is.
If parents don’t start stating what is acceptable & what isn’t when children are very young, they are setting up their children to be anti-social & obnoxious.
Parenting is a 24/7 job from their birth. I asked my mother (zol zei gezunt und shtark) once when do you stop worrying about your kids? Answer: when you’re dead.
Wherever we go, EY or anywhere in Chutz Laaretz, a Yid should be erlich and behave with derech eretz and dignity. If we are not getting that message to our children/talmidim then we are failing them. Burning garbage and destroying property is not the way to be taken seriously. We should not be copying the behaviors of the arabs. They throw rocks, and burn and destroy with reckless abandon. We cannot sink to their level no matter how unfair things seem. Hashem expects better of us and we should expect better of one another.
To #55 and all the other brilliant American bochrim posting against this article. Stop embarrassing yourselves! While you may think you have valid points, and maybe you do, your English and writing skills are atrocious.
If you want to be taken seriously by anyone, write coherent English! You obviously have a computer, ever heard of spell check? Try it out. Though it may have a hard time deciphering 14 lines of a run-on sentence as #4 posted.
And “Hit the hammer on the nail”. What? Maybe you were reaching for “Hit the nail on the head”??
Some background: To my knowledge, most demonstrations are illegal in Israel. They may only be held by special permit.
When I was in Eretz Yisrael, our Rosh Yeshiva warned us: if we get arrested at a Hafganah – we’re on our own – he will not bail us out!
This woman’s misguided hesitation to call the fire department (or police, for that matter) to avoid a Chilul Hashem, reminds me of people who will not turn in child molesters for the same reason.
Please all, realize that you are speaking about the great Yeshivas Mir. You are also bad mouthing the concept of sending American boys to learn in Eretz Yisroel. Please realize that it is possible that due to your comments, a boy who had tremendous potential did not go to learn in Eretz Yisroel, where he would have grown in greater leaps and bounds, because his mother read your words and got scared. If this happens, it will be on your Cheshbon, and I do not believe anybody will be envious of you.
I will be envious! The pasuk says “V’loh Me’ever LaYum Hi”. Eretz Yisrael does not have a monopoly on Torah. Someone who is serious about learning can learn in the US as well. Sure, there is the possibility he may not learn on the same level that he potentially can, but we don’t know that. What we do know, for certain, is that the dangers are real. Do not minimize them. Parents should realize that unless you KNOW without a SHADOW OF A DOUBT that your child is a responsible young man, and absolutely committed to sitting and learning, you are PLACING YOUR CHILD IN A MAKOM SAKANA MAMMESH. I’ve seen what goes on in some Mir diros in my time (10+ years ago). I’ve spent time in the area many more time over the last few years. Nothing much has changed. There is minimal hashgacha in the Mir. There are other yeshivos that do have hashgacha, and know what’s going on with every bochur. Not so in The Mir. Sure, some bochurim to tremendously well there. Without a doubt! But those are the people who SHOULD be going there. Responsible young men with a commitment to sit and learn. People who are going there to grow. Not people going there looking for a good time.
This situation is all very frivolous. Medinat Yisrael is a sovereign democracy that has elected officials running the country. Daas Torah does not run Israel. Moshiach has not appeared yet. If the municipality of Jerusalem wants to open a parking garage on Shabbat in a Chiloni area who are the charedim to protest.
All beside the point. The point wasn’t if the reason for protesting is legitimate or not. Reread the letter.
If it was done lhachis that’s one thing but it wasn’t.
With your reasoning I don’t know why that would change anything, but again, all beside the point.
To the rebbitzen who wrote this letter to yeshiva world. This accomplishes absolutely nothing. If you want to be a kanoi go to the Rabbonim not Daas Yeshiva World.
I completely disagree. It accomplishes much. It makes parents who read YW aware of what their children might be doing. It can actually be saving neshamos.
Also if you want a quieter existence don’t live right in the middle of kikar Shabbos more to a quieter neighborhood.
Perhaps, but that doesn’t solve the issues she brings up.
Also Yeshiva bochrim don’t need your permission to have internet or tv in their diras.
Gut gezugt! You really got her there! You defended the kavod of all the bochrim learning in Israel. More power to you!
One more thing what does anyone who writes a letter to Yeshiva World accomplish. So seminary tuition is too much, or people smoke in the Mir. What is Yeshiva world going to do about it.
Nothing. Perhaps the parents will.
Stop complaining and by the way you shouldnt be criticizing bochrim for using the net when you yourself are using it.
Run-on sentence aside, the point you are attempting to make does not really warrant a response.
Make Aliyah
Lashon Harah
NECHAMASTZION, Thank you for writing and alerting chutzniks to what goes on in our most holy city. Why are people so afraid to face the truth? Perhaps it is time to look in the mirror, say good for the good and look to change what is wrong. This was a good letter written with a toales. Once again, thanks for writing and keep on living where you are living.
Kikar shabbos does not belong to the guardians of holiness, it belongs to all Jews where ever they live. Behave in the holy city and be hashem’s messangers for good.
As somebody living in Jerusalem, Hosting Yeshiva Bochrim all the time and many of them. I would like to comment regarding the topic at hand.
The nisyonos of today’s dor cannot be compared to the nisyonos of the bochrim 5-10 yrs. ago regardless of location. Today there are iPhones, iPods etc…, It’s not a problem to get hold of anything by the touch of a button. Yeshiva bochrim in EY have access to a full night life plus, plus. just a 5 minute walk from Kikar Shabbos, Whereas in Jewish communities in the tri-state area, at least, it is much more difficult to access these type of Toevas. Today there are plenty good bochrim going to town “just to watch the games” no these are not the rotten apples these are average guys.
A really serious bochur won’t go, and I think that a bochur in today’s generation who sits in yeshiva and does not go to town etc… is not good , he is amazing and a true tzaddik. Parents of such bochrim should be kvelling from Nachas.
Unfortunately in today’s day and age the yetzer Hora has a lot of technologies to get us and we have to learn to fight him in today’s “new language” and every day it’s changing.
Getting back to the riots in Kikar Shabbos, I definitely think that it is a very serious problem that must be addressed.
Quoting one of the gedolim who does not think that the Chareidim should be making a fuss over the Chilonim’s chillul Shabbos which is still a problem but instead should be addressing our internal problems we are busy with this.
Rabbosai we have to wake up before things get worse. I remeber the riots, yes I am calling them riots not to be confused with peaceful demonstrations (the beautiful Kabbolos Shabbos on Bar Ilan), that took place in the summer of 2006, protesting the “parade”, and how many american bochrim were “partying” on the streets, and ending up in jail. A bochur who is responsible and Ehrlich will make sure not to be there (even innocently)
The burning of garbage cans should never be justified it is Gezel Hatzibbur paid by residents taxes to the municipality, besides for the terrible stench and pollution which causes respiratory complications for the elderly, infants and people with upper respiratory illnesses. Who wants too take responsiblity?
Yes Israelis are also heavily involved we are all one let’s not forget.
I have lots more to say but I think it’s enough for now, hope this helps change the life of even one person for the good.
i am a 19 year old yeshiva bochur learnin in e.y.and a witness to these hafgonos. there is truth to this article,however,most is false or greatly blown out of proportion! i witnessed every garbage dumpster being lit and it was all done by israeli teenagers. as for the lights going out that was bec of construction being done nearbye. and all the “animalistic screaming” was either bec three arabs in a truck came bye(which is very dangerous, so something had to be done to get them away)or bec bochurim were singing! (yes this is wrong to keep people up but dont blow it out of proportion!) and the worst thing about this letter is that parents will hesitate about sendin their children to e.y. to learn when it could be the best thing for them! so dont TOTALLY blame the american boys when all the destructive activity is done by israeli boys. yes,the american bochurim shouldnt provoke these kids and help out,but dont go and put all the blame on them!! i hope all these problems will be solved and moshiach will come quickly!!
This discussion seems rather pathetic. As one writer wrote, it’s very convenient to blame a big group, like “the Americans” for all ills.
One incident, that is not proven to be Americans at fault, and already some are slamming thousands of bochurim and the mosdos they belong to.
Most bochurim are wonderful and mature. The ones that are going out to movies and more are by and large the same ones that did it back home… and it’s a deeper problem where parents didn’t/don’t have what it takes to stop it. What makes anyone think the personnel at the yeshivos can miraculously cure what the parents couldn’t? What makes you think any “bad apple” for lack of a better word is better off in NY?
Besides, I do not live in Kikar Shabbos. Where I live there are brush “wildfires” started sometimes daily. We live with smoke and dust and ash regularly, nothing to do with hafganas and shabbos and chilul hashem. (By the way, to the commenter about not calling the FD because you have to pay… not true, I’ve been there and done that.) And it is not “American Bochurim” here at all!!!! Israelis or youth or both seem to have a penchant for burning things. When they stop burning cardboard and branches in valleys behind residnetial areas, they’ll stop burning garbage bins in Geula. Americans, Israelis – it’s the PEOPLE that do it that are the problem, not any one group over another.
Close your eyes and daven that your children will be”h be those sitting in the Beis Medrash. And daven that all misguided and immature and wandering youth will come to appreciate and practice the right way. It doesn’t help to “call out” to parents of thousands of very fine bochurim with fringe horror stories, and it doesn’t help to blame and seek out mashgichim. Open a tehillim and do what our ancestors did – it’s amazingly effective.
Shalom!
I would like to point out one more issue regarding American Yeshiva Bochrim specifically and that is they dear to do things that they would never do elsewhere because they think no one is watching them or knows who they are and therefor they can “smoke, drink, go to the beach(mixed) , Egypt , Eilat, walk around in Pajamas, wear strange souvenirs, attend certain functions or bars which are unsuitable etc….., This is not exaggerated I am witness to this and some are not even embarrassed to tell there experiences at my shabbos table. Many of them are good nice guys. So remember “Bmakom Sh’ein Anashim Hishtadel Lihiyos Ish” And I would just like to comment on some of the pathetic Purim costumes and behaviours too. So remember Hashem is always waching you and yes there are plenty of Chutznikim here in Israel who know who you are and are called up for information, you are forewarned.
you are mamash being moztai laaz on every single american bochur that has learned in ey, is learning in ey, or will learn in ey! you should really ask mechila from every single one, but it won’t really help because when someone asks where they learned, for shidduch purposes, and are told the mir, their ‘knee jerk’ reaction will be bad! for no good reason!
i understand that there may be a few bochurim who dont learn and do horrible things, but you didn’t make a clear distinction, and even if you did everyone took it the wrong way.
i personally know parents that if they would read this article would not send their children to ey. chazal say “avira d’arah machkim”-there really is an advantage to learning there which you are mamash taking away from some very good bachurim.
a bachur in yeshivas mir yerushalayim
To #81 – Bestbubby – SN says it all – Geivah! Lol.
In this day and age, IMHO, telling a child does not create any respect at all. If a child has a tremendous urge for something and all you do is tell them that they can’t have it, when they are 1,000’s of miles away from home, you really honestly think they will listen to you????
I rest my point.
Can we please remember that IF this was done by foreign kids the amount of boys protesting vs those coming to learn in EY is such a minute amount – as in percentages of a percent!
Stop blaming the masses for the stupidity of the few. The same way not all Israelis are stupid, not all foreign bocherim are b’haymos!
Israeli youth are brought up in a wronged society where if not given what demanded fast enough, they begin to wreak havoc. Can one blame Americans from going to watch this rediculous phenomenon? The root of the problem is not ‘Bored American Bocherim’ rather it the ‘Respected Rabbis’ encouraging this ‘Animalistic behavior’. Of course a peaceful public Friday night Davening is perfectly acceptable, but, as a result of that, people are fueled up to coninue the protests the following days. What starts off as a peacfull idea will develop into more.
Is that the intention of the organizers of the peaceful events?
wants to know what guys find geshmak about hafganos? There is a group of bochrim that got arrested m”s had a hearing Wednesday and the court was not happy, they have to sit for at least another week till another hearing, is this what guys want?????
that said i am personally insulted by this letter, i am a bochur learning in the mir under the esteemed guidance of maran HaRav Nosson Tzvi Finkel Shlit”a. The Rosh Yeshiva has said many times over the years, that he does not want the oilem going. and for those of you who say that guys go unnoticed, let me just tell you Rabbi and Rebbitzen Carlebach made a chasunah thursday night, sunday till to day they are on the phone trying to get these boys out of jail. because the Yeshiva looks out for the guys.
that said, the brisker rov was once traveling in a wagon and the waggon driver ran in to some mud, he said the brisker rov to come out of the waggon so he could get them out of the mud, the brisker rov said a good driver doesn’t get stuck in mud to begin with, yes there were some bochrim involved but a good bachur does not get caught in this mud
o and if you were wondering why i am on the internet at this hour, so i will answer that the rosh yeshiva who knows me well sent me to work on spare time instead of wasting it.
#96 Not saying anything about either group. We’re just raising the possibility of such things happening to your loved ones, based on the actions of the minority, and the situation these bochrim are in. Parents who are in charge will not have to worry.
#26 I appreciate your comment and agree withevery thing you write which I know is very well true. I also commend the young lady who had the guts to right this letter in such an honest manner. I was a bachur, you where abachur. You can do whatever you like! We can chose to sit and learn all day, or we can chose to bum around. Some choose a mixture of the 2. Now I think we would both agree that places like the Mir, give a boy the opportunity to shteig at his own pace getting the chance to be inspired by the other thousands of bnei torah that surround him. We are not oblivious, of course, to the risks involved. There is the internet which is not to be underestimaed. There are girls. And I have some news for you, THERE HAS BEEN AN EPPEDEMIC OF GAMBLING GOING ON IN BOCHURIM DIRAS!!! Shocking!! Truly Shocking!!
The question is: What on earth are you going to do about it? When a boy is 20 or so they make there own choises whether they are in Yerusholayim or elswhere. There are problems in Wiliamsburg, There are problems in the Catskills. SWhich brings me to my next, more specific question:
Imagining you where a Bachur in the mir now, what could your mashgiach, friend or who you wish said to that would avert you from joining a Hafgono or other questionable acts?
Young Mechanech:
The problem is the entire system. Like many others, I went to Eretz Yisroel with the hope that I would Shteig A Velt. Yes, I learned, but there are so many distractions and nisyonoes that we as individuals must make an honest personal evaluation to determine if we could withstand them. We go to Israel because that’s the thing to do. If we don’t go, then we are misfits. IF THIS IS OUR CHESHBON, WE SHOULDN’T GO, but there really aren’t any other alternatives. There needs to be change in the system. Parent’s need to assess their child’s desire to go to Israel. Do you have a plan? Why do you want to go? Why can’t you learn in America like you’ve done for the past 18 years? There’s just so many problems, and until we are honest with ourselves, there isn’t an answer. The truth is that looking back,I gained a lot just from being away from authority and being able to live life completely on my own, but that’s not why we are supposed to go to Israel!!
News Update:
R’ Tuvia Weiss of the Eidah Chareidis said that no bochur under any circumstance should join the hafganos.
Gut Shabbos.
I am an American (40+) learning at the Mir for a number of years (along with running a business).
I have had scores of bachurim at my home for shabbos & yom tov over the years. I have learned with them, shmoozed with them, and they have become my friends. I must say: they are wonderful guys. The atmosphere at the Mir is one of Torah it is a kiddush hashem.
I am not fooling myself. Believe me, I have talked with guys about issues that I never thought I’d hear from bochurim. I know some went to the protests. But it is really NOT representative of the Mir in anyway. There are very few guys involved in that stuff.
In terms of the internet, vacations etc etc. Well…there are more guys involved in that and I often wonder how to see all this.Compared to college kids in the US this is all very tame. Compared to our grandparents – it seems outrageous.
I just want to defend the Mir. Noone at the Mir approves this sort of behavior. Noone supports violence. If a few bochurim go…please don’t bash a wonderful yeshiva with a history of over 150 years.
I just have to reiterate the fact that the bochurim in mir are very offendedd about this latest fiasco and we condemn the yeshiva world site for hosting this. the truth is there a are maybe 20 american bochurim actively participating in hafganos the rest are just watching the scene. the ones starting the hafganas are the yerushalmi “chashuve” yidden living in the neighbourhood. as for the loshon hora about how bochurim spend their free time, it is a minor problem affecting a fraction of a percentage of american bochurim in EY.(my internet connection is from my married siblings house)
Looking forward to reading good things about the bochurim!
A Mir Bochur
“I just have to reiterate the fact that the bochurim in mir are very offendedd about this latest fiasco and we condemn the yeshiva world site for hosting this. the truth is there a are maybe 20 american bochurim actively participating in hafganos the rest are just watching the scene.”
So you should condemn your 20 fellow bochrim actively participating and the others standing by and watching for damaging the reputation of your yeshiva, and not YWN for talking about a real problem where obviously Mir Students are involved, as you said yourself.
Kol hakavod to nechamastzion for writing and then bothering to defend and clarify; even though people continue to read whatever they like into her words.
A real pity that nobody who claims to be learning in the Mir can write a decent English.
As somebody who has many cousins and brothers who studied in the Mir over the past 20 years, I have to say that there is no contradiction between a bochur who learns really well and a bochur who has a good time. Some bochrim can do both.
So know people understand why some kehillas are against all these hafgonos…..
I HAVE A PICTURE OF THE LETTER WRITER!
well nechamastzion, i saw YOU at the balagan in kikar shabbos tonight (hakafos shnios 5770)2:00am with your camera. I saw you in your brown mea sharim sweater thing draped over yourself protecting a dumpster. You proudly proclamed to all that you have lots of pictures of bochrim you are going to ruin shidduchim for. Well tonight all of the americans you have accused we still keeping yom tov so who did you take pictures of? I will tell you- you took pictures of isreali bachurim who were laughing at your hebrew. I saw it all. And i had my camera too. I discreetly took a picture of you so i could post it in geula/mea shearim as the ‘mom with internet in mea shearim’,when you decide to post your pictures of my freinds to ruin their shiduchim. Trust me- your neighbors, (the same ones that have been living with the smoke/noise for years but just learned to live with it- a practice you should adopt too if you like the area) will promptly WEED YOU OUT of their neighborhood and happily place you on sorotzkin, minchas yitzchok or ramat eshkol where you can check out Yeshiva World news without having to hide in the kitchen.
Another proof (besides the internet) that you dont belong in the neighborhood to begin with was that besides those two chasidim (one who tried to block the dumpster with his car) and your 3 yenta friends NO OTHER neighbors of yours were out on the street they all went to sleep or enjoyed the entertainment.If you cant get a good nights sleep like they do- move out! Get real. You cannot change the neighborhood. You are not superwoman.(she wears pants, not mea shearim wannabe wear)
All i saw tonight was a clasic yenta. So i signed on to yw to DEFEND THE AMERICAN BOCHURIM AND YESHIVOS YOU NAMED because in the end of the day, since your approach is getting you nowhere ,you, me and the other bochrim were all there for the same reason: the action.(as i said there were many families checking out the action from their mirpesets- and getting better entertainment than from internet.
oh yes you raised your voice at that bochur and i hope that YOU didn’t disturb anyone’s sleep. NONE OF YOUR FEMALE NEIGHBORS WOULD DO WHAT YOU DID TONIGHT- SHOUTING AT BOCHURIM RANTING IN THE STREET AND PROTECTING DUMPSTERS. ITS NOT TNIUSDIG!They are far,far more refined than you. Is it not time you start to learn a thing or two from the neighborhood and lifestyle you love soooooo much that you moved from the states and ‘never looked back since ‘? Are you forcing this lifestyle on your kids? (they wear the shawls too?)
chill out you are in israel;-)
I will
Looking back on all of this I have come to the realization.
That sometimes there are rotten apples in a bunch.But they don’t neccecary represent the masses.
I feel that bochurim should go to Eretz Yisroel there is a lot to be gained by going there,However, before a bochur decides to go he should disscuss it with his Rosh Yeshiva/mashgiach or parent to see if he is ready to go.
To the majority that does what they are suppose to _Hashem should bentch you-after all your Torah holds up the world”