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You drive your car every day, day in and day out.
One day your car doesn’t turn on. You try and try and try, but the engine won’t start.
You take it to the mechanic who fixes it, and you’re back on the road.
Will this mechanic receive a special award? No.
Will he celebrate this great accomplishment? No.
Why not? Because it’s his job, and he has received the needed training to get the job done.
The same thing with the Chareidim.
We live each day with Emunah and Bitachon.
Each one of us knows quite well the concepts of G’zar Din and S’char v’Onesh.
It is certainly difficult to accept Hashem’s decrees.
No one claims to have the answers of the specifics and the severity.
But one thing we do know - the Ribbono Shel Olam did it for a reason only He knows - and we accept His judgement.
Sadly, the Chilonim don’t walk around with such an attitude, and therefore have questions.
They need to take a minute each year to think.
We as Chareidim think about Hashem’s ways every day of the year.
The mechanic’s friends won’t celebrate with him - it lowers their standards.
The Chareidim don’t stand during the siren - it minimizes their Emunah and Bitachon.
Well said.
The whole siren thing has no basis in the Torah. We do not believe in introducing new things to our religion. Hashem tells us what to do, not some irreligious government officials.
Comment by KSN — May 7, 2008 @ 8:21 am
I guess you don’t go to levayos or hespeidim either, because after all… it minimizes your Emunah and Bitachon.
Comment by shturem — May 7, 2008 @ 8:30 am
In my opinion, this is very sad.
“The chilonim” and others don’t take the minute to think. They take the minute to remember. To remember their relatives and friends who were murdered as well as the relatives and friends of those who do not want to stand in silence during the siren. (When was the last time that you thought about the six million who were killed and sat in silence for a bit?)
Remembering does not mean not accepting Hashem’s degree.
There is a mitzvah not to cause pain to a fellow human being. Hashem is more interested in bein adam l’chavero than He is in His own kavod. When you do not stand silent for a minute - in a show of solidarity with those who feel it is the honorable thing to do on this day - you may be causing your fellow man pain. He may feel that you just don’t care about him or his feelings. Is it worth “standing on ceremony” if you know that you may be causing this pain to a fellow Jew? Think about it.
Comment by Gold — May 7, 2008 @ 8:41 am
This letter makes no sense. There is a concept of a yahrtzeit, and remembering those who are gone. Does observing a yahrtzeit take away from your emunah and bitachon? Of course not!
Personally, I don’t like Yom Hashoah the way it is now. We have Tisha B’Av to remember tragedies which affected the Jewish nation as a whole, and there were special kinos written about the Holocaust. We should remember it then.
However, to say that obseving Yom Hashoah takes away from your emunah and bitachon is just stupidity. If this reasoning was true, there wouldn’t have been kinos written for the Holocaust, nor would we have a Tisha B’Av at all. We would just say that Hashem has His reasons, and move on.
Comment by Feif Un — May 7, 2008 @ 8:42 am
My parents were both survivors. My father came out with 2 siblings, my mother lost EVERYONE. It is obviously too much effort for you lunatics to take one minute out of your busy year to stop and remember. As a frum jew, I am embarrassed. Shame on you.
Comment by workingman — May 7, 2008 @ 8:48 am
I agree with 2, 3, 4. I think, while your intentions are good, the hashkafa is misguided and lacking ahavas yisroel.
Comment by torboy74 — May 7, 2008 @ 8:49 am
#3.. you are right on with your comment.
This letter is a classic exapmle of Chareidi Elitism and arrogance.
Comment by outraged — May 7, 2008 @ 9:01 am
Commemorations and yahrzeits developed by Chilonim don’t follow Torah guidelines and generally violate principles and viewpoints based in Torah.
We don’t follow false holidays and false mourning. Hashem has established Tisha B’av as our day of mourning. The Chilonim don’t dictate our religion to us.
Do all the Chilonim fast or mourn on Tisha B’av? Where is their respect for us?
As #1 said, “The whole siren thing has no basis in the Torah. We do not believe in introducing new things to our religion. Hashem tells us what to do, not some irreligious government officials.”
Comment by tzoorba — May 7, 2008 @ 9:08 am
I would like to clarify one point from my post: as I said, I disagree with the idea of a separate day for Yom hashoah, I think it should be remembered on Tisha B’Av. However, since the day is observed, I will respect it. If I was in Israel, I would stand during the siren, even though I don’t agree with it. If the day is observed, it would be a lack of respect for the kedoshim who were murdered. We can debate the idea of the day a different time. On Yom Hashoah is definitely not the right time to argue it. Respect it while it’s there, debate it a different time.
Comment by Feif Un — May 7, 2008 @ 9:14 am
This letter is one of the silliest I’ve seen posted. More energy was expended writing it than its worth for something that is harmless at the least and meaningful for so many people. I agree with the previous posts criticizing the letter, and would like to add that Yiddishkeit is full of minhagim, some of which have no basis in anything, but we stick with them. A moment of silence to remember those who have perished…can anyone be so cold as to blast such a gesture? I guess the answer is yes.
Comment by flatbusher — May 7, 2008 @ 9:16 am
This letter is shameful.
And #1, you don’t believe in introducing new things? If you’re seriously going to proposition that Charedi Judaism is the exact same Judaism that has always existed, I suggest taking a good hard look at history.
Comment by illini07 — May 7, 2008 @ 9:18 am
Wow, I never thought of it that way.
Now, I won’t be obliged to fast on Tisha B’Av, since I recall churban beis hamikdosh each day.
Comment by telegrok — May 7, 2008 @ 9:42 am
so, lets be dan lkaf zchut, that they stop to think,
and isnt there anything that YOU MR TZADDIK YSOD OLAM, have to think about, like doing tshuva,
and wouldnt it be a tefillah rabbah to have YOUR thinking and doing theshuva with millions the same exact time, have a great haspaah upstairs where they know the real YOU.
so vois shat, adderabba your not stopping to think is a chillul hashem brabim and you are a koffer!
Comment by Genug — May 7, 2008 @ 9:48 am
“Well said.
The whole siren thing has no basis in the Torah. We do not believe in introducing new things to our religion ”
OK. So, eliminate all the Yom Kippur piyuttim written in the middle ages, eliminate Tisha B’Av
( the churbans are not in the Torah ), eliminate Purim and Chanuka ( both d’rabbanon ), eliminate selling Chometz, eliminate Chassidim ( an 18th century addition ) etc
Comment by lesschumras — May 7, 2008 @ 9:59 am
#13, the last sentence of your comment was priceless. Thanks for the laugh.
Comment by illini07 — May 7, 2008 @ 10:00 am
All of you who are writing things such as “it minimizes out bitachon” and the like -
as a frum jew, i tell you , you must have a mental sickness preventing you from seeing reality. besides for the fact that you show 0 respect for yoru fellow jews which borders on sinat chinam.
btw “chilonim” are still jews. whether you like their positions or not, they are just as jewish as you and i. so why go around shambling them, bring them in instead. when you make comments and post things like this on a public site for them to see do you think that makes them MORE or LESS likely to become observant? Shame on you! and shame on YW for posting such an article!
Comment by kollelman1 — May 7, 2008 @ 10:01 am
Hey, you know what!! It took him longer to think up and write that stupid letter than it would have taken him to stop and think about the six million. Maybe we can find a “mechanic” to fix you. Then the rest of us will all give him a special reward.
Comment by workingman — May 7, 2008 @ 10:03 am
#14, you left out the kollels. Lets not forget this 20th century phenomenon. We could go back to the times of the tanaaim and amoraim, etc who ALL WORKED and LEARNED.
Comment by workingman — May 7, 2008 @ 10:07 am
When I click on ‘out of the mailbag’ , i usually look forward to a serious topic involving our community.
This is a ridiculous post, and its posting makes light of so many things, least of which — is associating this forum with ludicrousness.
You disagree w/ the medina? You’re entitled to your opinion. But if you live there, you follow the customs of the place.
Did not the malachim who visited Avrohom ‘pretend’ to eat, even though they do not need food?
If you live in America, and you (lehavdil) hear the national anthem, do you remain seated? do you talk on your cell phone? For the sheer gratitude that you live in a medina shel chessed, that allows Jews so much freedom, we have much to be thankful and respfectful for, you stand in silence. Some remove their hats, out of respect.
If you live in Israel, and you disagree with the government, you HAVE to admit that you reap the benefits of police and soldiers keeping the peace, and that you, too, live in a Medina Shel Chessed, with all its physical benefits (I’m not even talking of ruchniyusdikke benefits)
Put things in perspective, it is ONE minute of silence. If this 60 seconds of your life devoted to this so pains your neshama, since the other 1440 minutes of each day are used in such kedusha, you can say a kapitel of tehillim by heart.
really, now.
are these the issues YW is reduced to printing?
Come, come.
The time it took to write the initial blog was longer than the siren.
I took more time to respond to this, because it pains me to read about such trivialities and criticism about Eretz Yisroel and Medinas Yisroel.
I find too often that when people make big issues out of little ones, there is really something else that they are bitter about and they ‘take it out’ on the issue they feel they can control.
Don’t take your issues out on Israel!
Comment by mom18 — May 7, 2008 @ 10:12 am
Kollelman, the last paragraph of your comment is spot-on. Alas, I’ve been trying to make that point for who knows how long, so don’t hold out hope that many will change…
Comment by illini07 — May 7, 2008 @ 10:15 am
I remember one of the Kinnos saying that if we made an individual memorial for each sad occurrence in Jewish History, we would have many Days of Memorial. Therefore, we remember all these occurrences on Tisho BAv.
FYI, a larger percentage of Klal Yisroel was killed by the Spanish Inquisition - if you calculate the total killed as a percentage of the worldwide Jewish population.
Comment by ObservantJew — May 7, 2008 @ 10:18 am
I would like to know from this letter writer, if someone took a bullet for him, would he acknowledge his yartzheit every year, or would he say that it’s no different from his car mechanic?
Have you ever heard of Hakaros Hatov? How do you show Hakoras Hatov for the fallen soldiers and the wounded?
Comment by sane — May 7, 2008 @ 10:23 am
Thirty years ago I was working in a store in Geula when the siren went off. I went about my business, totally ignoring it. (hey… the non-religious are not going to dictate to me how to act!) A few non religious people noticed my disregard for the siren and were LIVID! They tried to have me fired. Baruch Hashem I had a very understanding boss who kept me on. Over the years my dislike for “Medinat Yisrael” has grown considerably to the point where I refuse to even live there. However, in retrospect, I feel that I was wrong. I should have stood silently just for the sake of not hurting another Jew. If I could ever find that livid Yid again I would ask for mechila.
Comment by The Queen of Persia — May 7, 2008 @ 10:38 am
#14, you left my last sentance out of the quote- “Hashem tells us what to do, not some irreligious government officials.”
Everything your listed :”Yom Kippur piyuttim… Tisha B’Av…Purim and Chanuka …selling Chometz, eliminate Chassidim …” are established by people who fear Hashem and do His will. NOT BY IRRELIGOUS GOVERNMENT PEOPLE!!!
I was in Bnei Brak today and I was very please to watch many frum people walking around. I was sitting on a bus and did not stand. I do not stand because some Zionists atheists tell me to stand and be quiet for a few minutes.
The funniest part of the whole ordeal was that the loud mouth radio reporter on the bus radio did not stop talking for the whole two minutes. I found that quite amusing- how much he so seriously takes this “moment of silence”.
Chas v’shalom do I mean to minimize people’s pain! L’hefech! It is EXTREMELY minimizing to take ALL the pain from the Holocaust and stuff it into two measly minutes a year! Every day we remember the evil that has been done to us during our davening. And Tisha b’av, which many of your dear Zionists do not observe, is a whole day of bitterness, not a stupid two minutes. So, yes I agree with the letter writer, it minimizes your bitachon since it implies that you only have to remember for two minutes a year!
The radio reporter closed his two minute drasha during the “moments of silence” by saying “HaMelech Yaananu b’yom korrenu!” If there were not other people there I would have laughed out loud. Some King you appoint over yourself when you do not even listen to what He wants and does not want from you.
Comment by KSN — May 7, 2008 @ 10:57 am
Dear Letter Writer
Speak for yourself. THis Chareidi will stand and Remember.
Ironically now would be right time to take just a few minutes to remember that during this time of year we’re in the weeks of Sfira, and we are Misabel the 24,000 Talmidim of Rabbi Akiva.
I have yet to hear a person have the azus to say, “We don’t have to be misabel! we don’t have to mourn, because this was the Gzar Din Mishamayim!
Take haircuts! Make weddings! Being Misabel during sfira is a lack of Emunah and Betachon!”
Maybe you should learn a thing or two from the Chilonim - they are remembering fellow Jews, which is sadly, more than you’re willing to do.
And please please please,remember to thank your mechanic. Its only menshlich.
Comment by My.02 — May 7, 2008 @ 10:57 am
There are so many non-religious Jews in Israel who for the entire year, including Yom Kippur and Tisha b’Av, do not feel any connection to their past nor to their people. And not even because they are kofrim, but because they are tinokim shenishbe’u. They were raised in a certain environment where Yiddishkeit was not a value. Even if they have bitachon and Yirat Shamayim, they would not even know how to do mitzvot properly.
Medinat Yisrael made it possible for even these tinokim, all over the world, to be connected to the most God-fearing and pious of their people. Now, we have two chagim, just two days a year, when these brothers of ours, who do not even know how to keep Shabbat or how to wrap tefillin, can feel a sense of brotherhood and nationalism that connects them to their past and legacy, and can connect them to their Jewish brothers everywhere. Why would someone, like a frum Jew who is comfortable in his Jewish skin and lives a religious life all the time, push away these people who do not even know anything about how to be religious or cannot feel religious?
“Hinei Matov UmaNaim, Shevet Achim gam Yachad.”
Is it not a mitzvah for us to get along together with all the Jews? Is Hashem not most happy when we, the observant, can just sit down and have a picnic with our brothers and not judge them?
Imagine that you have a brother with whom you used to be close, but from you have since drifted apart. He does not keep kosher, so you and your children can never eat in his house. He married a Shiksa, so you are uncomfortable bringing your impressionable young children around him. He does not keep Shabbat, so you never run into him in shul. And you are heartbroken, upset and a disappointed in him. You even cannot help wondering how he can be so numb and inconsiderate by his activities and lifestyle. All year you have not seen him.
However, one day, he picks up the phone to call you. Without knowing why, he just feels more connected to you, like he wants to be a part of you, to be back in your life. To bring himself closer to the way things once were….would you hang up on him without even hearing him out? Without even talking to him? If he told you that he wanted to go to shul, just to try out, would you not take him by the hand and encourage him? If he told you that he wanted to try on the tzitzit, just once, to see how they feel and to see how they make him feel, would you not show him love and patience?
So how can Hareidi Judaism, the most visible kind of frumkeit there is, not take these Jews by the hand and show them love and patience when they want to feel close? How can we not respect their siren, their feelings, the sacrifices they make on behalf of Am Yisrael? How do we not take the time to engage them and to understand their feelings and to help them civilly understand our own? When they open themselves up and put themselves out there for us, how can we not do the same for them, for our own brothers?
“V’chol Bnei Basar Yikrau Bishmecha.” We all look forward to times when the whole world will recognize KBH. If we push away Jews, people with bris mila, people with Hebrew names, people whose grandparents took the same oaths at Har Sinai and in the Gas Chambers as our own, how can we ever expect the non-believers, who do not understand Hebrew and who were not at Har Sinai to eventually see HaShem?
One last thing: Everybody knows the story of the Holocaust survivor in shul on Yom Kippur who does not know how to daven, and the only thing he remembered from his Rebbe was the Aleph Beis. Just singing the Aleph Beis at Neilah opened up the Shaarei Shamayim for all Klal Yisrael. Our Israeli brothers know the Aleph Beis. But they know much more than singing the Hebrew alphabet. They serve in the army, build Israeli society, promote Jewish culture and they protect Am Yisrael. They, as a society, feel responsible to their fellow Jews. It is perhaps their only mitzvah, the only one they know how to do- and they do it very well. And they do it L’Shma. And unlike a spiritual reward that comes from an answered tefillah, the zchus of them performing this mitzvah is obvious to all, in front of all our eyes. To ignore their contributions and sensitivities goes against so much of what we stand for.
Comment by NoPeanutz — May 7, 2008 @ 11:04 am
This letter writer reminds me of a friend who threw out turkey sandwiches the day before Thanksgiving, that g-d forbid no one would look in the fridge and even think he would ever celebrate an American Holiday!
Oy, mamash a tzaddik!
Dear letter writer, you’re so concerned to “publisize” the greatness of your Bitachon and Emunach and why the siren should have no meaning for you, perhaps you should now start working on your anava, too. I’m just saying
Comment by My.02 — May 7, 2008 @ 11:13 am
>>I remember one of the Kinnos saying that if we made an individual memorial for each sad occurrence in Jewish History, we would have many Days of Memorial.
Comment by NoPeanutz — May 7, 2008 @ 11:19 am
To NoPeanutz: Thank you for the beautiful post. Wonderfully written and from the heart.
Comment by workingman — May 7, 2008 @ 11:23 am
#21– The estimate of people who were burned during the Spanish inquisition was approx. 3000-5000 Jews. There is a number of 31,000 who were burned at the stake, but these people were not only Jews, but included Muslims and anyone not of the Christian faith. 200,000 Jews left Spain, not including the thousands in other areas. The death are from 1492-1808. Your comparison to the Holocaust is flawed. Within 6 years, more Jews died in the percentage in the Holocaust than during the Spanish inquisition that lasted centuries.
Comment by anon1m0us1 — May 7, 2008 @ 11:25 am
There is a very simple solution. If Israel is considered a Jewish State then they people need to respect the Jewish Courts. If you consider Israel a Gentile state, then “Dina Delmalchusa Dina” and we need to respect their courts. The Spinka Rebbe will be doing his time for failing to respect the Laws of the land in Chutz Laoretz, The Ger Rebbe should not make the same mistake.
Comment by anon1m0us1 — May 7, 2008 @ 11:27 am
I did not comprehend this letter, the mechanic, chilonim, bitachon - the lines don’t follow. But besides - give it up! If you don’t want to stop at home, don’t, that’s fine. Personally, I believe that on the street we should all stop - as someone wrote, it’s harmless for me to do, it can be very meaningful for the person watching.
Comment by anne — May 7, 2008 @ 11:29 am
#26, well said.
To the author of this letter, unfortunately, you need to increase your mussar seder. It has so far not penetrated. I recommend reading the book Tzaddik Yesod Olam about Reb Aryeh Levin, by Simcha Raz.
Comment by Pashuteh Yid — May 7, 2008 @ 11:34 am
Comparing the siren to the story the mechanic lacks sensitivity to the people who stop for a moment to remember the fallen soldiers of Israel.
You may disagree with them but you should at least respect them. One more point it’s isn’t only the chilonim who stop for the siren, the frum orthodox do as well, In my humble opnion it’s a chilul hashem if in public, not to stand still when others are.
Comment by stam2hack — May 7, 2008 @ 11:38 am
Hey, maybe a chiloni will see that you had a little menthlichkeit and participated and were mishtatef in the tzaar that another YID felt regardless of whom instituted this time as a time of remembering.
The fact that a YID is feeling the loss of another YID is a kiddush Hashem.
Oh. And maybe you’ll actually speak to the terrible chiloni, have a posotive influence on him and poof! his children might go to a Yeshiva or day school!!
Been there and done that. It works.
It’s obvious that this is an experience that you’ve never had. Try it. You’ll love it. You’ll actually feel good about yourself.
V’ahavta leraiacha kamocha IS a mitzvah deoraisa.
Comment by ayin tov — May 7, 2008 @ 11:39 am
I’ll bet the author is NK!
Comment by truth4ruth — May 7, 2008 @ 11:41 am
To My Dear NoPeanutz:
ashreichem v’tov lochem! How comforting to know there are Holy & clear thinking Jews like you still
around! You also have a wonderful pen.I cried when
reading your beautiful & ” yashrisdike diburim”!
Comment by roger green — May 7, 2008 @ 11:47 am
to #1
>>The whole siren thing has no basis in the Torah
Comment by NoPeanutz — May 7, 2008 @ 11:48 am
i’m a chareidi jew, and i completely disagree with this letter.
Comment by zzzzzz123 — May 7, 2008 @ 11:49 am
We may disagree with all that Yom HaShoah stands for, but why not at least respect the siren? According to the majority of opinions, a moment of silence is not really chukas hagoyim, and if disrespecting it is going to cause a chillul Hashem (which it does every year when all the journalists gleefully tape all the Chareidim who run around as though nothing is happening)then it is actually better to stand, and say a kapittel tehillim under your breath if you really don’t feel right standing silently. If you are at home, or in the beis medrash, than you need not stop what you are doing, but if you are in public, please show some respect for your surroundings and your fellow Jews- they are just as deserving of respect as any other Jew.
On Yom HaZikaron, it is even more important that we stand for the siren, even though we don’t agree with this method. Without all the chayalim who have died, as well as all the civilians who have been murdered just doing their daily activities, we would not be able to live in, or even visit Eretz Yisroel; without these people, you may as well kiss the kosel, maaras hamachpela, kever Rochel, and numerous other mekomos kedoshim goodbye. Thanks to these chayalim, we have been able to set up and live in many kehillos kedoshos all over Eretz haKodesh. Without them, there is no Yerushalyim, no Bnei Brak, no Betar, no Kiryat Sefer… We need to thank Hashem everyday of course, but He would certainly want us to thank His messengers as well (and yes, they are His messengers, even the ones that are not observant.) For all the heartache the medina causes us, it is still better than basically every other alternative short of Moshiach.
Lastly, although we may feel that there are other better ways to remember, and even though chilonim have no business getting worked up over such a trivial matter, we can still do whatever else we feel would be better (tehillim, mishnayos, etc) and we would do well to remember that we still have an obligation not to cause pain to another Jew, even if you think he’s crying over something silly. Would a husband ignore his wife’s request because he thought it too trivial, or that she is being oversensitive? We must continue doing the proper actions, but the chilonim will never know of all the zechusim of our davening and Torah study for their sake; they will know, however, of our ‘blatant disrespect’ for something that is important to them, and in the end, we end up looking bad and making a chillul Hashem. And a mere politcal statement is not worth that.
Comment by halavai — May 7, 2008 @ 11:50 am
to #1, obviously, you have never been to shul on Rosh Hashanah
Comment by NoPeanutz — May 7, 2008 @ 11:54 am
There’s no basis in the Torah for the sable shtreimlach either… The chareidi world is so xenophobic that they wouldn’t recognize a real Jew if they saw one. As evidenced by Levy from Lakewood…
Comment by ploniebenplonie — May 7, 2008 @ 12:01 pm
regardless of what someone might feel about the siren, has is occurred to anyone that a minute is a perfect amount of time to stop and say a kvitel tehillim for all the kedoshim that gave up their lives al kidush HaShem?
Comment by antishtus — May 7, 2008 @ 12:04 pm
Beautifully said, NoPeanutz!
Comment by amusedreader — May 7, 2008 @ 12:10 pm
i gotta say from experience, i was on a bus with chilonim many years ago when the siren went off and i have to say it was the longest minute of my life. try a moment of silence on your own every day it would be beneficial for everyone. do you know what you can pack into that minute? thank you hashem for:
my torah
my health
my family
my clothing
my wife
my children
my house
my friends
my neighbors
i am a jew
i can go on and on but i am sure you can make your own lists and pack an awful lot in a minute after all that siren doesnt tell you what you have to think.
i was looking around at those people and most of them didnt begin to know what they should think about, but as torah observent jews we have been taught from the cradle what to think about. i liked the suggestion of the rav that suggested that everyone should say a kapitul tehillim.
i don’t condone the idea of a siren but for crying out loud nobody cares if you stop or not and nobody cares about your statements if you walk when everyone stops..look at the trees not at the forest.
Comment by nuschus — May 7, 2008 @ 12:10 pm
I remember one who claimed that his Judaism was only in his heart even though it was not at all in his actions. He was yelling at someone who was running down the street during one of those sirens. “Hey there, why are you running?”, the one said. “I am not running”, came the reply. “What do you mean, but I see you running!” “You are wrong, in my heart I am standing, and that is what counts”.
Comment by Shraga F — May 7, 2008 @ 12:10 pm
#41, of course I have been in shul on Rosh Hashana, and I heard the true siren, the shofar, which permeates a Jew’s heart and stirs him to the greatest emotions. The shofar is the Jewish siren, not this pathetic electrical noise.
Comment by KSN — May 7, 2008 @ 12:47 pm
It seems so obvious to stand and to remember the jews who died because they were jews.
It makes me glad to see so many people from the frum community who seem to agree.
Comment by 1818 — May 7, 2008 @ 1:16 pm
to # 10 FLATBUSHER
u write “…many minhagim some of which have no basis in anything”.
gevald?!?!!
which religion are u talking about???
Comment by eli lev — May 7, 2008 @ 1:31 pm
This was one of the most stupid and embarrassing letters I have read.
Comment by jlq3d3 — May 7, 2008 @ 1:43 pm
“We do not believe in introducing new things to our religion.”
Then how did we get the text of Selichot, the text of Tachanun, Simchat Torah, Yizkor, L’cha Dodi, not eating kitniyot on Pesach, Av HaRachamim, piyuttim, kinot for the Crusades and the Shoah, mourners saying kaddish in unison, Nusach Sfard, Nusach Ari….all post-Chazal innovations.
Besides, I thought most Charedim DID stand.
Comment by charliehall — May 7, 2008 @ 1:44 pm
number 3, you couldnt be more wrong.
Did you know that one of the laws/customs of yom hazikaron is that all soldiers are required to feel the pain so intensly that they must each visit the grave of a dead soldier with their family to represent that dead soldier?
they dont take a minute to think? you probably dont think at all.
Comment by The Town Crier — May 7, 2008 @ 2:09 pm
#51, like another before you, you failed to read the next line “Hashem tells us what to do, not some irreligious government officials.” All the examples you listed “Tachanun, Simchat Torah, Yizkor, L’cha Dodi, not eating kitniyot on Pesach, Av HaRachamim, piyuttim, kinot for the Crusades and the Shoah, mourners saying kaddish in unison, Nusach Sfard, Nusach Ari” were all started by people who feared Hashem and did His will, not irreligious government people who do their own will.
Comment by KSN — May 7, 2008 @ 2:32 pm
#40,”we end up looking bad and making a chillul Hashem. And a mere political statement is not worth that.” Not standing still is not at all a political statement. It is a statement that we listen to the Torah and not to atheist Zionist leaders. It is a chillul Hashem to stand still since you are lowering His honor in the world by accepting the rule of people who defy His will.
Comment by KSN — May 7, 2008 @ 2:39 pm
“The Chareidim don’t stand during the siren - it minimizes their Emunah and Bitachon”
Who said this represents Charedi hashkafa at all?
I once heard a tape quoting a prominent member of the Charedi community, who said the above attitude is incorrect. I think the suggestion was made to stand respectfully, and say Tehilim.
Comment by Baruch Horowitz — May 7, 2008 @ 2:44 pm
halavai,
Thank you for a well-reasoned and appropriate response to a rediculous letter. I, in fact, do exactly what you suggest - I stand and say a Kapitel Tehilim quietly L’zecher the Kedoshim of Europe (on Yom HaShoah) and the Kedoshim who gave their lives in defence of their fellow Jews (on Yom HaZikaron)during the minute (or two) that the siren sounds.
an Israeli Yid
Comment by IsraeliYid — May 7, 2008 @ 2:52 pm
it doesn’t matter. who said it has to be a halacha? it is the custom of the land. american jews have bbq’s on july 4th and a day off to visit bubby in the bungalow on memorial day just as israeli jews, religious secular or otherwise observe silence on yom hashoa and yom hazikaron. get over it. its not a bad thing.
Comment by The Town Crier — May 7, 2008 @ 2:59 pm
The problem with the moment of silence is that it was invented in Germany based on the belief that there is no afterlife and nothing happens after people die, so we have to take a minute to remember them. Israel adopted this belief as seen on the memorial across the
street from the Tachana Hamercazit. It is a tall pillar with the word “Nizkor” on it. They consciously took the work Yizkor - which is our memorial prayer, and means Hashem should remember, and switched it with Nizkor - meaning we will remember - because they do not believe that there is a God does remember and who will give reward in Olam Habah.
The psak I was given is that if I am in a public place, I must stand for the moment of silence out of respect for those people who do not know this background information and who will take it the wrong way if I do not stand. However, in private, I may not stand because standing symbolizes belief that there is no afterlife (olam habah) which is apikorsis.
Comment by kollel4real — May 7, 2008 @ 3:01 pm
The letter is unfortunately so full of problems, I don’t know where to begin. First, if a mechanic fixes your car, you don’t say thank you? Read Chovos Halevavos Shaar Habechinah that there is an obligation of hakaras hatov even when the doer has some self interest, as well.
Second, I think there is some general confusion in this thread regarding Yom Hazikaron. It is my impression that there are two separate dates. 27 Nissan was for Yom Hashoah. Date was chosen to commemorate anniversary of Warsaw uprising. Erev Yom Hatzmaut is Yom Hazikaron which is to commemorate the fallen soldiers and terror victims.
It is one thing not to go to the army at all, and depend on others to put their lives on the line. But isn’t there a little bit of human kindness required to show respect for the fallen soldiers and their grieving families? How would a frum person feel if during yizkor a chiloni came in and turned on his radio to the latest tune? The Torah requires derech eretz which comes before Torah learning. If a single parent of a soldier feels insulted because you didn’t stop during the siren do you have any idea what kind of din vcheshbon in shamayim there will be? Do you have any idea what a chillul hashem that is. It doesn’t matter whether there is a basis for it. It is a simple sevara. Kra lama li, sevara hi. Are we so callous that we can’t even thank somebody who made the ultimate sacrifice for our safety? If somebody interprets it rightly or wrongly as spitting on their relative, that is all that matters to be considered a chillul hashem. Rashi says in yisro, “Armaah, ad asara darei lo sivzei armaah b’apei.” We are never allowed to be metzaer people by making fun of what is dear to them. And armaah refers to ovdei avodah zara. It is the third time in 2 days I have to refer to the gemara yuma 86 about a torah scholar who is mekulkalin maasav and mechuarin derachav.
It is shreklach that this even needs to be said. Shame on all the frummer who require sources and takanas to be able to figure out how to act like a mensch.
Comment by Pashuteh Yid — May 7, 2008 @ 3:15 pm
Besides the fact that this letter is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read, what do you have to say for the religious zionist who have huge amounts of emunah and bitachon and stand proud and silent during the siren??? Furthermore, I am so disappointed that YWN would allow such a letter to be posted.
Comment by bonanza — May 7, 2008 @ 3:47 pm
#53:
That doesn’t mean they’re not an “unauthentic” (as in non-original) addition to Judaism. By definition, they ARE additions.
Just because they were promulgated by people with tremendous Yiras Shamayim does not mean that they have been commanded by HKBH.
Comment by illini07 — May 7, 2008 @ 4:15 pm
chareidiem don’t celebrate yom hazikaron because it’s a part of the Zionist independence day which they celebrate during sefira, a time of mourning, which is not acceptable to traditional Jews.
Furthermore the whole idea of their I.D. is hard to stomach to religious and historically minded people. For one thing, the state is built on the blood of a baal teshuva yid named dehan who was a diplomat from denmark. As a shliach of rav sonnenfeld he was in contact with the british to get an independent state for the yishuv. He was so sucessful with his efforts with them and with the arabs that the zionist were threatened and they murdered him - the first modern day jewish murder. No jew can celebrate the beginning of a state that was built on this murder. I’m also sure if he would have lived there would not have been all these soldiers and jews that died - we could have had a real peaceful land.
as a government that educated a generation of morally bankrupt people is the most anti religious land attempting to secularize all religious people [the immigrants from Europe, Teiman, Iran, etc etc.](you could write pages on this topic this is just the beginning)
I’m not saying people can’t choose to be silent and celebrate Y.A. but at least you should understand the chareidi view: it’s like the english telling americans when and how to celebrate july 4
we should all be zocheh to see the redemption and the return of the kingship of the house of dovid soon in our days. Amen
Comment by avf — May 7, 2008 @ 4:41 pm
“The whole siren thing has no basis in the Torah. We do not believe in introducing new things to our religion.”
Now I feel lots better when I read a sefer instead of davening Kabbalas Shabbas. Chazal never heard of it as it was introduced only about 500 years ago. Thanks!
Comment by zachw — May 7, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
Much ridiculous poem ever…
Halachos ben Adam Lechavercha got lost in the shuffle. Daven tehillim, think in learning, repeat the 13 ‘I believes’, sing an inspiring song to yourself, contemplate why you have hakaros hatov to hashem…..while standing quietly for a 2minute duration..
Comment by stan the man — May 7, 2008 @ 6:05 pm
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5/6/08
Several months ago, a rabbi made the point that evolving technology will increasingly force us to compete for the hearts and minds of the children (and adults) in our Torah community. And if you accept the notion that we will be faced with an open marketplace of competing ideas, most of which run contrary to our core beliefs, one of the most important things we can do is to analyze the attractiveness of our ‘product’ just like a town faced with the prospect of a “Wal-Mart” moving down the road needs to upgrade its marketing strategy or face financial devastation.
With that in mind, I suggest that we ought to follow up on the questionnaire I presented in this space in the Mishpacha Pesach issue (#205; “More Than Four Questions,”) and ask ourselves a piercing and painful query: What image are we projecting to the world at large? Is it one of the spiritual and kind-hearted beauty that we know it to be, or is it one that is far less attractive?
While I would like to think that it is the former, the more truthful answer to that question is probably, “It depends.”
On a retail level – as individuals – we do an incredibly effective job of spreading k’vod Shamayim (the honor of Hashem’s name). All those who interact with the wonderful charedi individuals who work in Hatzolah, Bikur Cholim, Tomchei Shabbos, Partners in Torah, Yad Sarah, and on and on – walk away inspired and impressed. In today’s look-out-for-#1 world, the devotion of our idealistic kollel yungerleit and their selfless, dedicated wives are the quintessential expression of Kiddush Hashem.
Sadly, though, while all these beautiful ‘retail’ events are happening, our collective ‘wholesale’ image is taking repeated body blows. Frum people are indicted and sometimes convicted of multi-million-dollar financial crimes. Outwardly observant hooligans are beating women for sitting in the ‘wrong’ section of buses and squirting bleach on those who are not dressed according to their standards. Ugly, protracted succession battles take place in secular courts for the leadership of heimishe kehilos. The specter of high-profile court cases of accused pedophiles looms large in our windshields. All the while, the incredible power of the Internet and the global news cycle is spreading these horrible images worldwide in a matter of seconds; trampling much or all the good will generated by the incredible mesiras nefesh of selfless members of our kehilah kedosha. These public acts of Chilul Hashem represent a crisis in our world – one that we must put an end to.
We ought to do it for the right reasons, for the ultimate k’vod Shamayim is to walk in the derech of Hashem and live a darchei noam life – a life of pleasantness and middos tovos, a life of honesty and decency; a life that enriches the world and brings honor to our Torah.
But even if altruistic reasons do not motivate us to improve our public image, as it should, we had better do so immediately for very selfish ones. Why? Because in the “Wal-Mart” world of a 24-hour news cycle, Internet and emails, these awful scenes in the aggregate present what I feel is an existential threat to the perpetuation of Torah values to our children and grandchildren. I say this because I strongly feel that moving forward, our younger generations – even in the most sheltered communities – will increasingly and inevitably see and judge the Torah world not only through our eyes, but also through the lenses of CNN, Internet blogs and emails. And many of those images are not pretty.
We know that all forms of media tend to gravitate to news that is negative in nature, and that many reporters are biased against members of our community. But let’s not kid ourselves. Perhaps one or two of these incidents could be explained away as an aberration or the distorted view of individual members of the media. Collectively, however, they represent a troubling trend – one that must be squarely addressed.
I have lost track of the many formerly frum people who list these incidents of chilul Hashem as primary or secondary reasons for leaving Yiddishkeit. This is also taking a terrible toll on visibly frum people who regularly interact with secular Jews and non-Jews, as we are perpetually bombarded with questions, when members of our community appear in the media for the wrong reasons. Our souls are shamed and our arms are heavy from having to defend the indefensible and explain the inexplicable.
There are no simple answers to this dilemma. But as I noted above, I strongly feel that it is a crisis of the highest order and must be pushed to the top of our communal agenda.
For as time marches on and technology increasingly pervades our lives, we will find it more and more challenging to transmit our beautiful mesorah to future generations with these stains on our collective sleeves.
not by kaj-tide
Comment by Proud of KAJ-WH TIDE — May 7, 2008 @ 7:35 pm
There are two statements being made, whether you like it or not. Statement #1 is the one the writer identifies which he is entitled to make.
Statement #2 - something implied by his actions whether he means them or not - is that the people being remembered by others do not matter and that the feelings of those remembering do not matter. Again, whether you like it or not, people are deeply hurt by this insensitivity.
So you have a choice, is it worth it to make statement #1 when you also make statement #2? Or can we make the following statement loudly enough to be mevatel statement#1: This minhag may be b’etzem meaningless but those who were lost matter, those remembering them emotionally at this time matter and we care about all of you.
Comment by guy from philly — May 7, 2008 @ 8:10 pm
62, “chareidiem don’t celebrate yom hazikaron because it’s a part of the Zionist independence day which they celebrate during sefira, a time of mourning, which is not acceptable to traditional Jews.”
Yom hazikaron is just that - a day of mourning. a totally seperate different day from yom haatzmaut.
Comment by The Town Crier — May 7, 2008 @ 9:04 pm
I wanted to apologize for my previous tone of voice earlier. It is not your fault for writing this letter. I am sure you were born with a beautiful Jewish heart. Unfortunately you are a tinok shenishba in hashkafah.
Let me give you a mashal. Suppose you were driving and somehow got lost in a forest for a few days. Maybe your car broke down. You are wandering around tired and starving and there are dangerous animals around. All of the sudden you see a house. You desperately knock on the door. When the owner opens it, it turns out to be of all people an Arab. Now, everything he has been taught in his Koran lessons tells him it is a mitzvah to harm Jews. He makes a Kal vachomer that it is certainly no mitzvah to help, and probably a big aveirah in his mind. He is faced with a nisayon. Should he follow his teachings, or should he help you. You of course want him to follow simply his tzelem elokim that whispers to him that the right thing to do is to help you, and not his yiras shamayim. The same thing here. Except the good news is that our religion doesn’t have such a nisayon. By doing the menschlach thing, we are also doing the will of the RBSH, otherwise our religion is no better than the Arab’s.
I don’t know who you learn by, but you fell under the influence of achzariim who should not be in the field of chinuch. They subverted your pintele yid, your good midos that you were born with. I don’t care how great your rebbe thinks he is, or how great others think he is. What matters is only menschlachkeit.
When it comes to chillul hashem, the gemara doesn’t say it is up to your rebbe to decide. The gemara I quoted earlier says that the determination is made by the brios, the onlooker, who maybe is not even frum. He decides what is a chillul hashem. If the actions seem nasty to him, it is a chillul hashem.
Maybe if it was Shabbos, and someone was in trouble, and there were severe issurim that might prevent you from helping someone, you would have a bit of a nisayon, but then you would gently explain that you are limited in what you can do barring pikuach nefesh, and kindly try to get help from a goy. There are ways to keep the halacha and also to be gentle at the same time.
However, here, what could be more simple than standing still for 2 minutes during the siren? Somebody who does not do it has nebech imbibed the midah of achzariyus which he was not born with.
Again, it is not your fault. There is so much menschlachkeit in the sefarim hakedoshim, but you need to be shown a derech. It is not easy to find the right rebbeim, since some of this attitude has infected a great many mechanchim, who may themselves be tinokos shenishbu in hashkafah.
If you are in EY, which it seems, I would strongly recommend learning a zman in the Yeshiva of Sderot, if possible. The Rosh Yeshiva is a first rate mensch, a big masmid and lamdan, and he and his family are so warm. The pure pashtus will do you wonders.
Comment by Pashuteh Yid — May 7, 2008 @ 9:57 pm
No one is asking for you to give a “special award.” Just a minute of time for thanks. I read a story from a Chassidishe magazine relating a story from R’ Sholom Jacobson who heard it from R’ Mordechai Goldberg (BP) who heard it from his shver, R’ Getzel Beck (a prominent Belzer Chossid) that the Lubavitcher Rebbe “responded [to a question from R’ Beck] that it seems, according to a Rashi, that even when you pay, one should also say thank you!”
You might have already “paid” with your emunah and bitachon, but you must still say thank you.
Comment by Tamim — May 7, 2008 @ 11:59 pm
#63, like two others before you, you failed to read the next sentence, “Hashem tells us what to do, not some irreligious government officials.” Kabbals Shabbos, in your example, was written by a tzaddik who feared Hashem and did His will. The siren, as well as the entire Zionism, is formed by irreligious government people who choose not to heed Hashem’s will.
Comment by KSN — May 8, 2008 @ 1:37 am
This may sound like Aleph-Beis but it seems it needs to be said again. Hashem does not pass out lollipops. He is our king. He is out master. He is the boss. He makes the rules. In parshas bechukosei he tells of the good things that await us if we do his will and R”L the holocaust that awaits if we do not. The tochachah was enacted in exacting detail during the holocaust by intelligent, educated, cultured people. The unthinkable brutality encompassed every horror that could not happen in your worse nightmare, but was enacted live, in real time, before the eyes of millions. It happened in Germany where the intermarriasge was 42% and Jews were interwined with goyim in marriage, in business, and in government more than any other country in Europe. Logically speaking the holocaust could not possibly have started nor have happened in Germany. But Hashem makes the rules and the impossible happens. Only six years after the Nazis y’sh got their first seat in the reichstag in 1927, AH y”sh came to power. Six years after that WW II started. Only Six years after that European Jewery which had been around in some countries since churban bayis shani had ceased to exist. (The maharil writes there was a tombstone of a shifcha charufa from the time of bayis shani in magentzia -likutim) For the believing Jew, that is the cycle stated in the Torah for not following Hashem’s Laws. (See mecshech chochmah bechukosei) The cycle has been repeated so many times even the non believer should have long ago started to wonder why is it always the Jew and only the Jew. To the believer there is no question. To silently stand because people who who perpetuate the behaviour which preceeded the holocaust said so, is untenable. To stand for a minute and think, as I’ve heard suggested, “If only the state was established 10 years earlier…” Is kefirah she’ain kimohu. If someone asks me why I don’t stand for minute, I would be happy to spend hours explaing it to them. But the useless phony symbolism is like the little yellow ribbons on American car antenaes. I showed I care, now leave me alone and let me get on with my life. We do not live safe and protected in Israel because of the Government and the Israeli Army. WE live safe and protected because of the yeshivas and kollelim, that the Israeli Government of Kofrim threatens to close. To observe this “Minhag hamakom” while they flush most halacha and minhag down the toilet is an insult to the torah, it’s an insult to Judaism, and it’s an insult to the memory of the people you think you’re honoring. The criticism spewed on the charedim here should be reserved for the Arab Knesset members y”sh who don’t stand.
Comment by matzahlocaol101 — May 8, 2008 @ 4:47 am
matzahkicaik101- I am glad to see I am not the only one here who thinks with emes.
It is truly sickening that all the people who preach ahavas yisroel reserve it only to people who defy Hashem’s will (regardless if they are at fault or not) and lash out hatred at frum people. This is true sinas chinum.
Comment by KSN — May 8, 2008 @ 9:27 am
#71 (AND 72):
I’m quite sorry, but for all of your self-annointed emes and holiness, you are not in a place to judge the holocaust, why it happened, or the people who perished in it. Nor is any human being.
72, you can go along playing the victim card if you want. The truth is that it is your sinas chinam that causes the sinas chinam that you complain about. Nobody is lashing out with hatred towards frum people in general (nor do you have a monopoly on being “frum”) - people are chastising certain things you do or do not do. It is not an overall, base hatred - it is a particular disgust.
Comment by illini07 — May 8, 2008 @ 9:48 am
#53– a small little tidbit you and the rest of the close minded people never acknowledge is that the numbers of perukim(chapters) and the like was introduced by the church! Oy Gevald, every single copy of our chumish have it in them!!! Maybe you never understood how one chapter in chumish is in middle of a topic…seems odd? So please refrain from saying shtus about everything we do is from g-d fearing jews. If you could still open a chumish then you could stand for one minute!
Comment by anon1m0us1 — May 8, 2008 @ 10:08 am
I think if the chilonim want the chareidim to stand in public during the state-invented minhag, then they should close their cafes and restaurants, barbers and swimming pools which are open in public on tisha b’av, the day that we commemorate tragedies much more ancient than the Israeli-Arab wars, and with minhagim many times more ancient.
I make sure not to be outdoors during that time, in the same way I believe any chiloni should not to eat, bathe or go to the barber in public on tisha b’av.
Comment by Ash — May 8, 2008 @ 11:16 am
74, thanks for the good laugh. There is no comparison though.
Comment by KSN — May 8, 2008 @ 11:34 am
#75, you’ve missed the point, completely and totally, 100%
Comment by illini07 — May 8, 2008 @ 12:25 pm
PLEASE READ IN ITS ENTIRETY:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Hashoah)
“The Masorti (Conservative Judaism) movement in Israel created Megillat HaShoah, a scroll and liturgical reading for Yom HaShoah, a joint project of Jewish leaders in Israel, the United States and Canada. In 1984, Conservative Rabbi David Golinkin wrote an article in Conservative Judaism journal suggesting a program of observance for the holiday, including fasting”.
NEED I SAY MORE?
Comment by BYgirl — May 8, 2008 @ 2:48 pm
67, part of yom haatzmaut is to have yom hazikoron right before it. They do go together. If you don’t celebrate one [for reasons mentioned above] then you don’t observe the other. Besides, if you don’t want to be like the secular zionist then don’t observe their holidays. Also why can’t people be accepting of Jews’ reasons for practicing their own way of remembering kedoshim like tisha baav and by carrying on true Jewish ideals which I am sure is much more meaningful to them than two minutes of silence.
Comment by avf — May 8, 2008 @ 4:03 pm
#76- I think I hit it on the head.
Comment by anon1m0us1 — May 8, 2008 @ 4:16 pm
BYgirl:
Yes, actually you do…because that comment seems completely irrelevant.
1) That conservative tradition was not the beginning/establishment of Yom HaShoah, it was simply their reaction/embodiment of it. Who cares?
2) Even if it WAS that conservative tradition which started Yom HaShoah (which it wasn’t), that automatically makes it something we should ignore, stay away from, or even denigrate? Nothing good and true can EVER come from conservative Jews? Are you not supposed to take mussar from any source it comes from? And judging by the insinuations of your comment, you might look to some conservative Jews for examples of ben adam l’chavero, or simple respect of others…
Comment by illini07 — May 8, 2008 @ 4:23 pm
#71, It appears as if you are blaming the chilonim for the holocaust. In my gemara it says Im roeh adam sheyisurin bain alav, yfashpesh bmaisov. Note it doesn’t say yifashpesh bmaisey chavero. I once heard from a rov that any time a person points an accusing finger at someone else, his other 3 fingers point back at himself.
Maybe if the frum had shown more warmth towards the secular, they never would have gone off the derech to begin with. This is too long to discuss here.
Bottom line, whether you agree with the medinah or not, altz vahavta lreacha komocha you are mechuyav to stand, lest you belittle the pain of a bereaved parent or wife or child who lost a loved one while protecting your own life.
It is open and shut menschlachkeit, and there is nothing to debate.
Comment by Pashuteh Yid — May 9, 2008 @ 12:29 am
matzahlocaol101-
[“If only the state was established 10 years earlier…” Is kefirah she’ain kimohu.]
Agreed.
But [To the believer there is no question. To silently stand because people who who perpetuate the behaviour which preceeded the holocaust said so, is untenable.] - there is no greater kefira.
There was plenty of sinning in Europe before WWII, no question- but what about the hundreds of yeshivos? What about the hundreds of saints and rebbes and talmidei chachamim that were butchered and gassed??? What about the millions of incredibly righteous and miserably poor Jews who were taken away and never seen again???
What about the over 1 million Jewish children who were destroyed????
Who the hell do you think you are that you will lecture me and everyone else about why certain historical events happened? Go ahead, tell me why we wear tzitzit, or why the sun comes up in the morning, or why my great-grandfather starved to death in a Ghetto. Tell me why, on the last day of the war, when surely my “intermarrying” great-uncle (who was born and raised and married into the yeshiva world before they were deported), was shot and killed on the last day before liberation (surely only afterward enduring more than his fair share of punishment for 1,000 lifetimes.
I am not incensed because your allegations were personally insulting, but because they were ill-conceived, inconsiderate, insensitive and dead wrong.
And, KNS, you should be ashamed of yourself for going along with this. EMES???????????? I’ve never heard of a greater kefira than trying to tell God what to do, to tell Her why and how to deal out reward and punishment as if She didnt have a mind of Her own. If the system was so easy to figure out, nobody would ever get out of bed to daven.
Comment by NoPeanutz — May 9, 2008 @ 10:05 am
illini07, I can go on and on but I will keep it short. You are so wrong! Maybe you know when to stop such a crazy shtus, but the conservative don’t. If they just wanted to teach us a beautiful lesson, thats fine, but don’t you see that they don’t know where to stop. Are you ignorant of all that goes on in their world? It may seem like a nice idea but they do not know where to stop! Why? because they are not guided by Gedolim. Our Gedoli Yisroel are the only ones that decide whats a nice thing to do, and whats not, not you, me, or them. Do you understand? I feel so strongly..I hope you understand what I am trying to say because in my eyes this is a fundamental principle in Hashkafa.
Comment by BYgirl — May 9, 2008 @ 4:17 pm
i know that the reason we ( my community) doesnt do anything really on yom hashoa is because it is the month of nissan and your not suppose to mourn then ….
Comment by ZigZag — May 10, 2008 @ 10:28 pm
My problem with Yom Hashoa has nothing to do with standing and remembering. That is fine. My problem is what Yom Hashoa V’Hagvurah stands for. The purpose of this day is not to remember those who died to sanctify God’s name, but those who fought the Nazis, those who protested.
The attitude of most Israeli’s to Holocaust survivors was one of negativity as they were “embarassed” by the European’s who did not fight the Nazi’s. The initial protest of Yom Hashoa did not come from the Rabbis, but rather came from Menachem Begin and his comrades from the former Irgun.
They protested, because the Holocaust, and the resulting trials of the Nazis, was used largely as a facade to put on a pedestal those who “fought” and to diminish those who could not. (read Tom Segev’s “The Seventh Million” … it provides an interesting perspective on the Israeli attitudes towards Holocaust Survivors)
Comment by TOHIGHSCHOOLGUY — May 10, 2008 @ 10:36 pm
Bygirl, why would you expect conservative Jews to listen to somebody who you consider a godol. They probably never heard of him.
Objectively, what is so terrible about them wanting to make some kind of ceremony about Yom Hashoah? What is so terrible about fasting on that day (if not for the fact that it is during Nissan, which is really a side issue here.)
Would you rather that they made some ceremony honoring the latest rock star, instead?
You never know what experience will trigger an interest in someone to become shomer mitzvos. Somebody may become inspired, and read a holocaust book, and learn about how frum yidden lived.
Unfortunately you are too young to appreciate that things are much more complicated than the simple things they teach in some yeshivishe schools and seminaries. It is easy to parrot back slogans. It is much harder to think through an issue so that it takes into account the numerous viewpoints and pros and cons. If Hashem wanted, he could very well have given the Torah to parrots. They could quite possibly learn kol hatorah kulah.
When you think about it, the approach of banning all outside contact and thoughts and reflexively pasuling everything that wasn’t written by a frum author, that is often used in certain circles, boils down to being very insecure about the Torah. If you chas vshalom read something by a nonfrum author, they are fearful you will immediately go off the derech. In my opinion, it is very sad if graduates are so weak in their yiddishkeit, that they must be shielded from everything. One who is able to debate an idea based on its merits, not based on a slogan that XYZ does or does not approve is ultimately much more confident in his yiddishkeit. In the real world, unless you are too terrified to face it, people will ask you questions why you do or don’t do certain things, and you need to be able to give them an answer which makes sense based on THEIR way of thinking, not by parroting that XYZ rabbi doesn’t like it. Because they will then immediately ask you why does XYZ rabbi not like it, and if you stutter and stammer “I don’t know, but I always follow XYZ rabbi because he is very learned”, you will have lost the argument right then and there, and made a fool of our religion in the process.
The yeshivas are often petrified that their graduates will be too weak to stand up to questions, so they teach by rote. This was not the way of the Avos. The Avos knew how to interact with ovdei avaodah zara, with rammaim like lavan and esav, and with Potiphar and Paroh, and rise to the top. In the gemara (Avodah Zara)Rebbe Yehudah Hanassi used to be best friends with the Roman ruler Anthony.
There is a school of thought that says we yidden can learn secular knowledge and deal with anybody because our way can stand up to any challenges. UNfortunately, the current brand of mechanchim is too afraid. Students are taught the parroting method instead.
Comment by Pashuteh Yid — May 11, 2008 @ 12:39 am
While there is nothing to debate regarding the chiyuv to stand because of simple menschlachkeit, I wanted to address the side points regarding taking ideas from the non-frum.
Berachos 8b: Amar Rebbe Akiva bshlosha devarim ohev ani es hamedayim: Kshechoschin es habasar, ein choschin ela al gabay hashulchan, ucheshenoshkin ein noshkin ella al gav hayad, uchesheyoatzin, ein yaotzin ella basadeh.
Berachos 8b: Amar Rabban Gamliel: Bshloshah devarim ohev ani es haparsiim. Hen tznuin b’achiloson, utznuin bveis hakiseh, utznuin bdavar acheir.
Kiddushin:
Ad heichan kibbud av vaem, etc. We learn extent of kibbud av vaem from an oveid avodah zara named Dama ben Nesina.
Eiruvin 100b:
Amar Rebbe Yochanan, ilmaleh lo nitnah torah hayinu lmeidin tznius meichasul, v’gezel minmalah, v’arayos miyonah, drech eretz mtarnigol. Chazal say if the torah were never given to us we would learn tznius from the cat, laws of stealing from the ant, laws of immorality from the dove, and proper manners from the rooster.
Chazal had absolutely no problem taking good ideas from idol worshippers, non-Jews and even from animals. Do you know why, because they were so intellectually honest, and not governed by sinah. The first and foremost middah of chazal was EMES.
It is a nebach today that yiddishe neshamos are being so brainwashed and so polluted with sinah in the name of “proper chinuch” that they don’t see how terrible it is to risk insulting a bereaved family member by not standing.
This is worth crying about.
Comment by Pashuteh Yid — May 11, 2008 @ 10:47 am
pashuteh yid
ever hear that each dor is on a lower madreiga then the one before?
we can’t go ahead and let children be friend with “non-religous”. put it this would you let your kids be friends with the frei children on the block. yes, we should try be mekarev the children and try bringing them closer to yidishkiet. But the yetzer hara is stronger, and if your child sees an inappropiate magazine for instance in their house. wat are you going to do about it? let them go back and play there?
and how is this dor which the level of tumah is so great take such a risk?
Comment by lgbg — May 12, 2008 @ 9:24 am
Exactly lgbg.
Assign responsibility instead of accepting it.
Blame aveiros on the strength of the yetzer hara, not on the failure of our own parenting or education system.
If you are afraid that your own belief system cannot stand up to that of others, what does that say about you?
And btw, according to the posts above from KNS and matzahloca101, the tumah of this door is comparatively low when compared to that of the dor of the Holocaust.
Comment by NoPeanutz — May 12, 2008 @ 11:08 am
Lgbg, I hear your point, but the way I see it is that the yiddishe home should be so cheerful and full of love and laughter that the kids don’t want to stray. (Doesn’t mean that kids don’t need a potch once in a while.)
By seeing that the parents are machshiv every Jew, and never saying anything bad or making anybody feel bad, the kids will learn that this is the best way.
I believe strongly we can’t make relatives of soldiers feel bad no matter what we think of the medinah. If you don’t want to wave the flag, then don’t, but at least stand for the one minute of silence the day before.
And as far as the frei kid, if you don’t feel comfortable having your kid play there, then invite him into your house and give him all kinds of nice snacks and goodies. I personally find that it is not frei or frum which is the issue sometimes, but the level of wildness. If a kid is too wild, I get nervous having him in the house.
Having a house which is too strict and restrictive may have the opposite effect intended, and could itself cause kids to rebel and go off the derech. It is a very delicate balance.
Comment by Pashuteh Yid — May 12, 2008 @ 4:33 pm
honestly speaking i wasnt even refering to waving he flag on the “medinah” because i can give you quotes from the gedolim what they have to say about the so called “medina”(if you want them i can post them).
and basically your rephrasing what i said just in different words. so thank you.
Comment by lgbg — May 12, 2008 @ 4:59 pm
let these chilonim fast on tisha b’av ,before they
start telling us how to mourn the Shoa .Besides its a chutzpah and a insult to remember the six million by participating in these 2 minute siron.
These is not the jewish way
Comment by chacham — July 7, 2008 @ 2:54 am