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YWN Coffee Room » Family Matters

Sephardim, Marriage, Gittin, and Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom

(33 posts)
  • Started 2 years ago by avhaben
  • Latest reply from OneOfMany

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  1. avhaben
    Joseph

    Considering that Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom never applied to non-Ashkenazim...

    1) If there was no civil law precluding it, is there any reason non-Ashkenazim couldn't be married to two spouses? If there is something (other than civil law) precluding it, what is it and does it apply to ALL non-Ashkenazim (Sephardim, Teimanim, etc.)? If so, why?

    2) Is there anything precluding them from divorcing their wife against her consent? If so, what precludes it? (Ashkenazim are precluded by the cherem.)

    I've heard that some non-Ashkenazim had two wives even relatively recently. That some even came to Israel from the Arab countries with more than one. If so, the only thing seemingly stopping it now is civil law (which could change.)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. sushee
    Joseph

    I have other questions about the Cherem D'Rabbeinu Gershom:

    1) What made the cherem binding on Ashkenazic Jewry?

    2) And whatever made it binding a) how did it bind the ENTIRE Ashkenazic world? b) Why did it ONLY bind the Ashkenazim?

    3) How could a cherem be made today that would be binding on an entire portion of Klal Yisroel? And if that is not possible today, how/why was it possible by Rabbeinu Gershom?

    4) Did Rabbeinu Gershom place an expiration date on his cherem and when was it? If the date passed, why is it still binding on Ashkenazim (or is it)?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. yungerman1
    Member

    sushe- I will speculate that Sefardim have different leaders and they didnt institute this ban, and/or that Sefardim lived in a different country than Rabbeinu Gershom.

    I highly doubt anyone can make a cherem today like it was done back then.

    I believe the expiration date was 500 years from inception which has already passed, but klal yisroel accepted it further. (This was recently mentioned in another thread)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    1) If there was no civil law precluding it, is there any reason non-Ashkenazim couldn't be married to two spouses?

    I once attended a wedding of a friend (who was marrying a Sephardi). When they read her ketubah out loud, I noticed an interesting clause that stated that he would not take another wife without his (current) wife's permission.

    I suppose such a clause (I don't know how widespread it is in the Sephardic world) would do the trick.

    The Wolf

    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. avhaben
    Joseph

    Such a clause seems to just require her consent. Which, unless I am mistaken, was always the default requirement even before the cherem, when even Ashkenazim could have more than one wife. So, with that clause, she could still provide consent. (Whether she does or not is academic to the theory.)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  6. musser zoger
    Member

    What is the earliest source (sefer) that tells us of Cherem d'Rabbeinu Gershom? Any Ideas?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. Sam2
    The Even-Keeled and Erudite Shmuely Wollenberger from Las Vegas

    It's a Gemara in Yevamos (65a maybe?) that it's Assur to take a second wife without the first one's permission.

    Rav Schachter also always quotes the Ran that it's Assur Min Hatorah to divorce your wife without permission, even before the Cherem.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. musser zoger
    Member

    I'm asking about all facets of the Cherem. Marrying 2 wives and opening letters. What is earliest source material?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  9. avhaben
    Joseph

    Sam: It seems halacha is explicit that one may forcibly divorce his wife. Like, if she burns your meal. (Prior to the cherem for Ashkenazim and currently for non-Ashkenazim.) What does the Ran say, and are there differing shittos to said Ran?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. gabie
    Joseph

    What about a Heter Meah Rabbonim? Sefardim don't have that since they don't have a cherem in the first place. So how would a Sefardi guy remarry if his wife unjustifiably refuses a Get? An Ashkenaz guy could get a Heter Meah. But Sefardim don't have that tool since they don't need it (they can remarry without it)?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. nitpicker
    Member

    I cleared my own post.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. avhaben
    Joseph

    So, can a Sephardi divorce his wife if she burns his dinner, as ikur halacha allows?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  13. gabie
    Joseph

    Why wouldn't they be able to divorce at will?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. avhaben
    Joseph

    Is there original text of the cherem, exactly as written by Rabbeinu Gershom, in any Sefer?

    Btw, did the Sephardim not accept any portion of the cherem or they just didn't accept the ban on polygamy?

    And if someone violates one of the cherem's, is it akin to violating mitzvah d'rabbanan instituted by Chazal (even though in this case it was instituted by a Rishon)?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. Ananas12
    Member

    i know a lot of sephardim , and the cherem of Rabbeinu Gershom also apply for them, they can't marry two wives.
    (i dont know about Teimanim...)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. writersoul
    Loving Eretz Yisroel more and more each day

    I believe that there is no text of the cherem as it was not instituted all at once (just kind of over time, these are famous decrees he made, etc). Even if there was, there is no reason to believe that it would survive, as this was written 500 years before the printing press and there would be no reason for them to copy it like the gemara or Rashi or anything like that.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  17. sushee
    Joseph

    The Cherem weren't all only accepted by Ashkenazim. Some of them were accepted by all of Klal Yisroel. Like the ban on reading other people's letters. And (I think) the ban on unilateral divorce. The ban on polygany was only accepted by European Jewry. And Morrocan, Persian, Yemenite, and many Sefardim had more than one wife even as late as when they moved to Israel. The only reason you still don't hear about it too much today is because they don't want to go to jail from the goyish (or in the case of Israel, the Zionist) authorities. They have no problem religiously having more than one wife. And Rav Ovadia Yosef shlita said they really should be marring polyganously today. Even the Vilna Gaon wanted to reinstate polygany among Ashkenazim.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. 147
    -105

    yungerman1:- ...
    I highly doubt anyone can make a cherem today like it was done back then.
    Clearly if we could make a Cherem today, within 5 minutes of WW2 being over, there should already have been a permanent & irrevocable Chrem on Germany & Austria.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. Health
    !

    sushe -"The only reason you still don't hear about it too much today is because they don't want to go to jail from the goyish (or in the case of Israel, the Zionist) authorities. They have no problem religiously having more than one wife."

    This is your mistake. I pretty sure the Gemorah Assurs marrying more than one wife in a place where it is not the Minhag HaMokom. So in the arab countries - the Sefardim can have more than one wife. In countries like England they can't. The question would be in the US and Israel.
    Israel, if you don't hold of the Medina, so they would have the Din of the arab countries around them. If you hold of the Medina -then you can't marry two wives because it's not the Minhag. The US is a fairly new country, but it's probably Assur here because they might be considered going after England's Minhag.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  20. Health
    !

    avhaben -"So, can a Sephardi divorce his wife if she burns his dinner, as ikur halacha allows?"

    This has nothing to do with Sefardim -the Gemorah says anyone.
    And there are a few Pshotim what this means. I don't think we Pasken acc. to the literal meaning.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  21. Health
    !

    gabi -"But Sefardim don't have that tool since they don't need it (they can remarry without it)?"

    Exactly -Sefardim don't need a Heter Meah to remarry - if the wife refuses the Get.

    News Flash -If people here would spend less time on the Net and more time learning S'A -they would also know there are times when Ashkenazim can get remarried without a Get or a Heter Meah!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  22. sushee
    Joseph

    Health, Are you assuming the minhag hamokem is based what the goyim (Arabs or Christians) that we live amongst do? Because that would be a mistake. It is based upon ones Jewish Kehilla. So if the Kehilla's minhag hamokem was to have more than one wife, when they move from Morocco or Iran to Israel or the U.S., their minhag hamokem stays the same it always was, even if their new countries goyim do differently.

    Also, what makes you opine that if she burns his food isn't the halacha we pasken on (not considering the cherem, if we assume not everyone was mekabel the cherem)?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  23. Health
    !

    sushe -"So if the Kehilla's minhag hamokem was to have more than one wife, when they move from Morocco or Iran to Israel or the U.S., their minhag hamokem stays the same it always was, even if their new countries goyim do differently."

    Let me rephrase my post. If the couple moves from an arab country, then you'd be correct -he would not need permission to add another wife. If he gets married in England, US or Israel, then what I said above would apply, even if he is a Sefardi.

    And btw, it just happens the Jews Minhag is what the Goyim do. In Iran the Goyim have more than one wife -so the Yidden do to, etc. in every country you look at.

    "Also, what makes you opine that if she burns his food isn't the halacha we pasken on (not considering the cherem, if we assume not everyone was mekabel the cherem)?"

    You misunderstood. That Halacha is brought down in S'A for e/o.
    Just that (Most?) Meforshim don't learn that it means literally.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  24. sushee
    Joseph

    How can a S"A not be literal??

    Posted 2 years ago #
  25. s2021
    :D

    Im pretty sure a Sephardi girl cant "refuse" a get. Ever wonder why in Sephardic culture women treat (and cook for) ther husbands like kings? (Hehe)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  26. MDG
    Member

    s2021

    Welcome Back !

    Posted 2 years ago #
  27. postal
    Joseph

    S2021: How do Sefardi wives serve their husband?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  28. s2021
    :D

    Thanx! Um Postal I dunno how to xplaine but im sure they do a good job.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  29. Health
    !

    sushe -"How can a S"A not be literal??"

    Look it up. One Pshat in the Gemorah explains it like this:
    The case is not a woman who burns the supper and takes the burnt food for herself and makes the husband a new portion; nor is it - if she burns the supper and she takes the burnt meal for herself and also serves her husband a burnt meal; but the case is - she burns the supper -this she serves to her husband and she makes herself -only herself, a new portion. For acting like this -you can divorce her.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  30. postal
    Joseph

    You mean she can be divorced for any reason whatsoever, but then he has to pay her kesuba. But if he divorces her because she burnt his supper, she doesn't get paid the kesuba, since halachicly that is "cause" for him to divorce her?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  31. 147
    -105

    And Rav Ovadia Yosef shlita said they really should be marring polyganously today. Even the Vilna Gaon wanted to reinstate polygany among Ashkenazim.

    These 2 Gedolim clearly are/were very concerned about the Shidduch crisis, and very much in touch with reality, and clearly fathomed & understand/understood, that re-institution of Polygamy would work wonders in solving the devastating Shidduch crisis, especially for so many older single women, let alone for many older widows.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. Englishman
    Joseph

    Well, 147, if the NASI Project is correct when saying the shidduch crisis is a result of there being more girls than boys in the shidduch market, then you indeed make a good case.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. OneOfMany
    Today, the Impressively Arbitrary Nymphadora the Purple is sporting One Of her Many eyebrow colors, as well as her Morgul-blade ^_^

    Whoaaa, Category Four...

    Posted 1 year ago #

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