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YWN Coffee Room » Tefilla / Davening

Proper pronunciation of words in prayers

(72 posts)
  • Started 3 years ago by MiddlePath
  • Latest reply from oy vey kids these days

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  1. MiddlePath
    Member

    I am a bit of a pronunciation freak. When I hear people in Shul pronouncing words incorrectly, it bothers me a little. Obviously, it's not my place to confront anyone about it. Most of the time, when people mispronounce words, it doesn't change the meaning, so it's not so bad anyway. However, there are times when mispronouncing a word changes its meaning, and that's when we get into trouble. For example, in the final paragraph of Bentching, there is a phrase- "V'zaro mivakeish lachem". Almost everyone I know, including myself until recently, pronounced the word "Lachem" with the stress on the last syllable. (laCHEM) However, the word should really be pronounced with the stress on the first syllable. (LAchem) When you pronounce it "laCHEM", it becomes a totally different word. (Definition- To you). When pronounced correctly, the definition is "bread". I think people mispronounce it because of the D'veikus song, in which it is mispronounced.

    That's just one example of what I'm talking about. By the way, since we will be reciting the Bentching quite a lot during the Holiday, please keep in mind that it is pronounced "LAchem".

    Posted 3 years ago #
  2. Pac / Man
    Joseph

    Whenever one mispronounces a word in tefila, a deformed malach is created that will testify against him in Beis Din shel Mala.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  3. MDG
    Member

    MiddlePath,

    Also there is a difference between the Chaf and the Het. The Caf is from the roof of the mouth, whereas the Het comes from the throat. In fact, the Gemara relates that a Cohein that pronounces the Caf like the Het is not allowed to do Birkat Cohanim.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  4. ItcheSrulik
    Formerly college sheigetz. Now ger.

    So Joseph, do you differentiate between a ches and a khaf? What about an ayin? Do you prounounce it at all?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  5. All you can do is bring this to people's attention. You're doing the right thing. This way, people will be more careful once they are aware of the problems that may arise.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  6. ItcheSrulik
    Formerly college sheigetz. Now ger.

    MDG: There is a heter given in the mishnah berurah hilchos nesias kapayim. Without it most kohanim I've heard would not be allowed to duchan.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  7. MiddlePath
    Member

    MDG, yes, I am aware of that difference, and thank you for bringing it up. But I think I can safely assume most people do not make that difference in pronunciation, and because of that, it ultimately leads to the problem I originally brought up.

    I would also like to point out that the example I gave is quite rare in that the problem is most people stress the last syllable. Because usually, the problem arises when people stress the first syllable. (Most Hebrew words are "Mil'rah" (Stress of the last syllable) and many people pronounce them "Mil'ail" (Stress of the first syllable). Exceptions are words that are Mishpachat Sh'nei Segolim.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  8. Boro Park Girl
    You'll find me on 13th Avenue!

    I once heard that your supposed to be careful but not to be too into it because then if you make a mistake, your worse off. This started by the times when certain groups of "yidden" were making dikduk into a religion of sorts.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  9. MiddlePath
    Member

    "I once heard that your supposed to be careful but not to be too into it because then if you make a mistake, your worse off."

    I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that, but I'm guessing that you agree that proper pronunciation is important if it would otherwise change the meaning of a word. But can you please explain how someone would be "worse off" by being more learned in this area?

    Posted 3 years ago #
  10. am yisrael chai
    We await your rejoining us!

    "Exceptions are words that are Mishpachat Sh'nei Segolim."

    An exception could also be נסוג אחור. E.g., we say in ברכת התורה "asher BA-char BA-nu" & not the usual milra ba-CHAR.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  11. MiddlePath
    Member

    am yisrael chai, you are correct. Forgive me for leaving that out.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  12. am yisrael chai
    We await your rejoining us!

    There are other exceptions.

    Think of mitz-RA-yim, mil-fa-NE-cha, she-tar-gi-LAY-nu, bi-so-ra-SE-cha, vi-sig-mi-LAY-nu,vi-har-chi-KAY-nu, mal-KAY-nu, nish-BA-ti, a-vo-SAY-nu, u-si-NAY-nu, may-AH-yin, KO-ach, ay-NAH-yim, MAH-yim, miz-BAY-ach, ash-RAY-nu, ZEH-ra, ya-RAY-ach, NEH-tzach, ma-TZA-sah, ha-li-LU-kah...

    Posted 3 years ago #
  13. MiddlePath
    Member

    "Think of mitz-RA-yim, mil-fa-NE-cha, she-tar-gi-LAY-nu, bi-so-ra-SE-cha, vi-sig-mi-LAY-nu,vi-har-chi-KAY-nu, mal-KAY-nu, nish-BA-ti, a-vo-SAY-nu, u-si-NAY-nu, may-AH-yin, KO-ach, ay-NAH-yim, MAH-yim, miz-BAY-ach, ash-RAY-nu, ZEH-ra, ya-RAY-ach, NEH-tzach, ma-TZA-sah, ha-li-LU-kah..."

    Most of those words that you mentioned have a suffix, which is why we don't stress the last syllable of the word, since we almost never stress the conjugation. I was referring to "shorashim", merely the root of a word. Most "shorashim" are "mil'rah", with a few exceptions. Some of the words you mentioned (Mah-yim, Zeh-ra, Neh-tzach) are in the category of Mishpachat Sh'nei Segolim, which includes variations of Tnuot K'tanot besides a segol. Other words you mentioned (Miz-bay-ach, Ko-ach) aren't Mil'rah because we never stress a syllable that isn't a full vowel sound, and the Patach Chet at the end of these words do not qualify.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  14. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Whenever one mispronounces a word in tefila, a deformed malach is created that will testify against him in Beis Din shel Mala.

    Cite?
    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  15. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Mods,

    Am I no longer allowed to ask Joseph for a cite?

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  16. yes
    but leave out the self-deprecation

    Posted 3 years ago #
  17. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Whenever one mispronounces a word in tefila, a deformed malach is created that will testify against him in Beis Din shel Mala.

    Cite?

    The Wolf (who does NOT like being muzzled)

    Posted 3 years ago #
  18. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    but leave out the self-deprecation

    Yikov Hadin es Hahar. If it's deserved then it's deserved.

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  19. am yisrael chai
    We await your rejoining us!

    many Ashkenazim are also makpidim on pronouncing the ת׳ as an "s" & not a "t" during davening despite using the "t" pronunciation in conversation

    Posted 3 years ago #
  20. gefen
    Comes here for family time!

    Now I'm afraid to daven. my ches and chof sound alike, as do my ayin and aleph. and i'm sure i make many other mistakes. if every time i make a mistake, a deformed malach is created to testify against me, am i not better off not davening at all?

    i think if one davens with the proper kavanah and tries his/her best to pronounce the words correctly, Hashem listens and understands. remember the story of the boy who only knew the aleph bais - but not how to read? he said the aleph bais with such kavanah - that was his way of davening - and the malachim took the letters and formed them into the right words for tefilah.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  21. am yisrael chai
    We await your rejoining us!

    I'm with you, Gefen. Hashem gave us the mitzvos to LIVE וחי בהם, not to be paralyzed with fear in the context in which you write. Hashem is a loving G-d & not punitive in the way that 1 mistake & one gets clobbered ch"v.

    The Sefer HaKuzari writes that we should consider each and every mitzvah as a personal invitation by Hashem to enter into His very palace.

    There's an INCREDIBLE vort on the megila we just read:

    We read in מגילת רות that when Boaz sees Ruth at his feet, he says in 4:11-4:13 that (paraphrasing) my daughter, don't be afraid. Whatever you say, I'll do. I'm a redeemer, but there's a closer redeemer. Stay the night. In the morning, if he'll redeem you, fine. Otherwise I'll redeem you. Lie down till the morning.

    The בן איש חי says that these are not only Boaz's words but also Hashem's!

    Hashem says to Am Yisrael: Stay through the long night of גלות. Don't ever give up, for morning will surely come. And when morning comes, you have a closer redeemer, your own מצוות ומעשים טובים. Perhaps they'll be enough to redeem you when משיח comes.

    But if not ch"v, if you've been loyal to Hashem, then Hashem Himself will be your redeemer and do not be afraid!

    So you see, intention & loyalty is very important.
    Do not be afraid!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  22. MiddlePath
    Member

    Gefen and am yisrael chai, I agree with you both. As long as we try, G-d will listen to us. I don't where the whole deformed malach thing comes from, but it doesn't sound like a very tasteful, or beneficial, idea. But we still should try. If we have the ability to say words correctly, I think we should.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  23. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Pac/Man,

    I'm still waiting on that source.

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  24. Pac / Man
    Joseph

    I like to keep you waiting.

    Besides, it's so much fun seeing a bunch of people attacking the idea and then when the source comes they all fall silent.

    Just kidding. Actually, I am still trying to find the source since it has been a while since I remember it.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  25. gavra_at_work
    caution

    Shiboles!

    Posted 3 years ago #
  26. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Besides, it's so much fun seeing a bunch of people attacking the idea and then when the source comes they all fall silent.

    You should know from our discussions in the past that if someone shows me that I am wrong and that they are right, that I do not "fall silent." I will concede the point.

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  27. Pac-Man
    Joseph

    Here are some related discussions on Mesechtes Megillah 24 that I found online on a daf yomi sources prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman
    of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim:

    1) ONE WHO DOES NOT PRONOUNCE THE LETTERS PROPERLY

    (a) Gemara

    1. Rav Asi: If one is from a place where people do not speak clearly, he may not Duchan (give Birkas Kohanim).
    2. Support (Beraisa): If one is from a place where people pronounce 'Aleph' like 'Ayin' or vice-versa, he may not be Over Lifnei ha'Teivah.
    3. R. Chiya (to R. Shimon bar Rebbi): If you were a Levi, your deep voice would disqualify you.
    4. Rebbi (to R. Shimon): Tell R. Chiya (who pronounces 'Ches' like 'Hei') that when he reads "V'Chikisi la'Shem" (it sounds like 'v'Hikisi', I hit), he blasphemes!
    5. Bava Metzi'a 85b: Eliyahu told Rebbi that the Tefilah of R. Chiya and his sons could bring Moshi'ach. Rebbi appointed R. Chiya to be Shali'ach Tzibur. Eliyahu needed to disrupt the Tefilah to prevent it from bringing Moshi'ach prematurely.

    (b) Rishonim

    1. The Rif and Rosh (3:16) bring Rav Asi and the Beraisa.
    2. Rambam (Hilchos Tefilah 8:12): We do not appoint to be Shali'ach Tzibur one who pronounces 'Aleph' like 'Ayin', or cannot pronounce the letters properly. A Rebbi may appoint one of his Talmidim to be Shali'ach Tzibur.

    i. Kesef Mishneh: Even though normally we appoint to be Shali'ach Tzibur only one of the great Chachamim and Tzadikim of the Tzibur (Halachah 11), a Rebbi may appoint one of his Talmidim to be Shali'ach Tzibur.
    ii. Eshel Avraham (OC 53:15): The Rambam teaches about a Rebbi appointing a Talmid right after disqualifying one who mispronounces letters to teach that a Rebbi may appoint such a Talmid. He learns from Rebbi, who appointed R. Chiya.

    3. Rambam (Hilchos Tefilah 15:1): Improper pronunciation disqualifies a Kohen from Birkas Kohanim. For example, one who pronounces 'Aleph' like 'Ayin' or vice-versa, or says 'Siboles' instead of "Shiboles", and similar mistakes. Likewise, if one speaks unclearly and not everyone can discern the words, he may not give Birkas Kohanim.

    i. Kesef Mishneh: The Beraisa mentioned only one who confuses 'Aleph' and 'Ayin'. The Rambam understands that the same applies to 'Siboles' and "Shiboles", and one who speaks unclearly.

    4. Question: Rebbi appointed R. Chiya to be Shali'ach Tzibur even though he could not pronounce 'Ches'!
    5. Answer #1 (Tosfos Bava Metzi'a 85b DH Achtinhu): We do not appoint a Shali'ach Tzibur who cannot pronounce the letters properly when there is someone else who can. Here, there was no one else (who could bring Moshi'ach).
    6. Answer #2 (Tosfos Megilah 24b DH keshe'Atah): When R. Chiya exerted himself he was able to pronounce it.

    i. Rebuttal (Pri Chodosh 53:12): If so, why did Rebbi say that R. Chiya blasphemes when he reads "V'Chikisi la'Shem"? Surely, he would exert himself to say it properly! Rather, we must answer like Tosfos in Bava Metzi'a.

    7. Answer #3 (Eshel Avraham ibid.): A Rebbi may appoint such a Talmid.

    (c) Poskim

    1. Shulchan Aruch (OC 53:12): We do not appoint to be Shali'ach Tzibur one who pronounces 'Aleph' like 'Ayin' or vice-versa.

    i. Magen Avraham (15): Ayin is stronger and deeper than Aleph. Likewise, we do not appoint one who pronounces 'Ches' like 'Hei'. If everyone speaks this way, he may be Shali'ach Tzibur.
    ii. Question: If someone confuses Ches and Hei, Shin and Samech, Kuf and Tes, or Reish and Dalet` how can he pray or read in the Torah? When he says verses such as "L'Nafsheinu Chiksah", he blasphemes!
    iii. Answer (Sefer Chasidim 18): Our Creator knows our intent. He only desires that we be wholehearted with Him. If the person does not know how to speak, Hash-m considers it as if he was Mekaven well. Similarly, Hash-m takes delight in people who sing Pesukei d'Zimra in a nice voice, even if they err because they do not know the verses - "V'Diglu Alai Ahavah". A case occurred, a Chacham told a Kohen to descend from the Duchan because he could not say the letters properly. The Chacham was shown from Shamayim that he will be punished if he does not return him.
    iv. Kaf ha'Chayim (61): If no one else is as great a Chacham and Chasid, this is considered that there is no one else.
    v. Bi'ur Halachah (DH Ein): He should not be appointed even on occasion.
    vi. Mishnah Berurah (37): Likewise, if one speaks unclearly he may not be Shali'ach Tzibur (just like he may not give Birkas Kohanim). The Yerushalmi Berachos Sof 16b) permits 'Leshono Aruch'. Pnei Moshe (DH Im) says that he stammers, nevertheless he is permitted because he does not change the letters. It is easier to understand according to Sefer Charedim's Perush there (DH Ach), that this refers to one who pronounces the letters properly even though others of his city cannot.
    vii. Mishnah Berurah (38): The Mar'eh ha'Panim (Yerushalmi ibid., DH Lo) requires that he can pronounce properly, through exertion if necessary. The Pri Chodosh (ibid.) allows one who mispronounces letters when there is no one else as qualified. He would not allow a permanent appointment, for perhaps later someone qualified who pronounces them properly will come.
    viii.Kaf ha'Chayim (60): Birkei Yosef disallows one who can pronounce properly only through exertion, lest he will forget to exert himself.
    ix. Bi'ur Halachah (DH Mi): The Taz (128:30) is lenient (regarding Birkas Kohanim, and the same applies to Tefilah) because nowadays most of us do not know how to distinguish these letters.

    2. Shulchan Aruch (128:33): One who does not know how to pronounce the letters properly, e.g. he pronounces 'Aleph' like 'Ayin' or vice-versa or similar mistakes, may not Duchan.

    i. Mishnah Berurah (120, citing Taz 30): Nowadays most of us do not know how to distinguish them, so one is not disqualified for this. In Russia, even though people know the difference between Shin and Sin, since many do not distinguish them one is not disqualified for this, just like certain Mumim do not disqualify if Dash b'Iro (people are used to them).
    ii. Rebuttal (Mishbetzos Zahav 30): Mispronunciation distorts the Berachah, and distracts listeners. Dash b'Iro helps for the second problem, but not for the first. However, when the entire region speaks that way we are not concerned.
    iii. Kaf ha'Chayim (192): One should not rely on Dash b'Iro unless there is no else to Duchan. If someone else can Duchan, Kohanim who cannot should leave the Beis ha'Keneses before Retzei.
    iv. Kaf ha'Chayim (193): Poskim argue about whether or not a Kohen who mispronounces should go down from the Duchan if he already ascended. It seems that if Dash b'Iro, or if he can pronounce properly through exertion, he should not go down.
    v. Magen Avraham (47): There is no Ayin in Birkas Kohanim. The Shulchan Aruch refers to one who does not distinguish Aleph from Ayin.
    vi. Rebuttal (Be'er Heitev): This does not answer the question! It could have said 'Aleph like Ayin', without mentioning vice-versa!
    vii. Defense (Kaf ha'Chayim 189): The Shulchan Aruch adopted the text of the Beraisa, which discusses Tefilah.
    viii.Eshel Avraham (47): There is an Ayin in the Birkas ha'Mitzvah beforehand (...v'Tziivanu Levarech Es Amo Yisrael b'Ahavah). Rashi (Megilah 24b DH Mipnei) says that pronouncing Ayin like Aleph harms Tefilah. Perhaps he is not concerned for the Berachah before Birkas Kohanim because one Kohen can say it on behalf of all the Kohanim.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  28. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Here are some related discussions on Mesechtes Megillah 24 that I found online on a daf yomi sources prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman
    of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim:

    Once again, you've answered the question that no one asked.

    No one disputes the importance of pronouncing words correctly during davening. You weren't asked to produce sources to that point... I could have done that too.

    You were asked to produce a source that shows that when a person mispronounces a word, "a deformed malach is created that will testify against him in Beis Din shel Mala."

    Please provide the source to that or retract.

    Thanks,

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  29. Pac-Man
    Joseph

    Once again, you've answered the question that no one asked.

    I couldn't find any rule against that in the CR rules.

    No one disputes the importance of pronouncing words correctly during davening.

    Actually at least 3 different posters above downplayed that mispronouncing words in tefila was much of a big deal.

    Please provide the source to that or retract.

    Even if I can't find the source doesn't make the source go away or the point any less real because one person in America forgot where the source is.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  30. AGAIN
    no one is compelled to produce a source
    no one is compelled to retract if he so fails to do

    if someone is asked for a source (or even "hounded" for one) and is unable to provide one, you may consider the significance of that fact, as well as everyone else.

    i personally could not give you the source for 98% of what i hold, without timeconsuming research.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  31. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    no one is compelled to produce a source
    no one is compelled to retract if he so fails to do

    Fine. I will change my wording.

    Produce a source or I will feel free to completely disregard what you say and consider it complete baloney and nonsense.

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  32. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Even if I can't find the source doesn't make the source go away or the point any less real because one person in America forgot where the source is.

    And I'm under no requirement to believe that it is real just based on your say-so. As such, until you can prove otherwise, I'm free to consider it baloney and nonsense.

    If you do provide a source that proves the point, I will be more than happy to change my opinion.

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  33. Pac-Man
    Joseph

    Produce a source or I will feel free to completely disregard what you say and consider it complete baloney and nonsense.

    I produced to the source per your challenge proving a rasha who knows Kol HaTorah Kula is NOT a "Talmid Chochom" and you dismissed it after saying you are free to believe as you wish, and did not "concede the point" as you claim above to do.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  34. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    I produced to the source per your challenge proving a rasha who knows Kol HaTorah Kula is NOT a "Talmid Chochom" and you dismissed it after saying you are free to believe as you wish, and did not "concede the point" as you claim above to do.

    I don't recall that. Please produce a link to the thread in question.

    Thanks,

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  35. Pac-Man
    Joseph

  36. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Thanks for the reminder.

    I don't want to go into it further in this thread (since it's not the subject at hand), but suffice it to say you did not bring a source. You simply made an assertion that the definition of a TC is not open to opinion. Your assertion is not a source.

    I did, however, admit that I was a kofer and not a TC, something I think we can both agree on.

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  37. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Furthermore, in looking at the sources you've brought, they all concern either a Shliach Tzibur or a Kohen who will duchen -- in other words, cases where people are saying things for the tzibbur. They do NOT, however, cases of private tefillah.

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  38. Pac / Man
    Joseph

    Look at it again. I sourced that a rasha cannot by definition be a TC.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  39. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    Actually, you did not source it. You said that the Gemara elaborates the attributes of a TC, but you did not tell me where the Gemara is. Furthermore, while you did list some of those attributes, none of them are impossible to find in someone whom you would consider to be a rasha. Heck, you might even find some of them in me.

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  40. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    But of course, all this is just a smokescreen so as to allow you to say "well, I have a source for my statement regarding deformed melachim, but I'm not going to bring it..."

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  41. Pac-Man
    Joseph

    In addition to paraphrasing the Gemorah I brought מסכת דרך ארץ זוטא and clearly a rasha cannot fit into that definition.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  42. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    clearly a rasha cannot fit into that definition.

    Why? I have some of those attributes and I am a rasha. Clearly a rasha can have some of those attributes.

    And, again, this is all beside the point to the issue at hand.

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  43. Pac-Man
    Joseph

    It says a TC "avoids wrongdoing". A rasha clearly does not. There alone you have proof a rasha cannot be a TC, regardless of how much Torah he knows.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  44. ItcheSrulik
    Formerly college sheigetz. Now ger.

    Wolf: Whether you are a rasha or not (and the evidence clearly points to not) your protesting that you are is entirely meaningless in terms of this discussion because "ain adam mesim atzmo rasha"

    Posted 3 years ago #
  45. Imanonov
    Member

    Can we please stop this childish bickering and get back to the very valid point made by the original poster.
    It is at times extremely important to say the words in our tfillos correctly.
    The most obvious one is also in birchas hamazon where many people speak about HKBH as BOREINU (=our pit) rather than BORE-EINU.
    Another important one (de'orayso!) is the first word in the first parshe of Shema: Ve'ohavto. The stress must be both on the Aleph-kometz and on the Tov-kometz (ve'OhavTO)whilst many people say Ve'oHAVto which makes it past tense.
    Chazan Benjamin Muller of Antwerp has on his website several examples of "Milim kesikunom".

    Posted 3 years ago #
  46. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    It says a TC "avoids wrongdoing". A rasha clearly does not. There alone you have proof a rasha cannot be a TC

    Why? I avoid wrongdoing. The fact that I inevitably fall into it proves that the two are not mutually exclusive. I avoid wrongdoing, but since I do fall into it, I am a rasha. Were I more learned, I could also be a TC.

    But in any event, let's say for the sake of argument that I concede the point. Now let's get back to your deformed malachim.

    You know, as I was davening today, I noticed that I inadvertently mispronounced at least four or five words -- and I have (IMHO) above average pronunciation skills. Based on your argument, I created four or five deformed malachim to testify against me. Most people probably created more. Perhaps we're better off just not davening then. After all, if I skip davening, I have one bad malach testifying against me. When I daven, unless I get every word perfect, I get several. Clearly davening is a losing proposition for me (and, I venture, for most people).

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  47. Pac-Man
    Joseph

    For every properly pronounced word you create a good malach who will testify on your behalf.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  48. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    For every properly pronounced word you create a good malach who will testify on your behalf.

    Again, assertions without any sources. Nothing I'm required to believe.

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #
  49. Pac-Man
    Joseph

    So if you never knew chazir was treif and someone told you so but didn't know the "source", you would continue eating chazir until someone proved the source to you?

    See Mod 80's point above about sources.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  50. WolfishMusings
    The Wolf

    So if you never knew chazir was treif and someone told you so but didn't know the "source", you would continue eating chazir until someone proved the source to you?

    So, by the same token, if I told you that there was a halacha that says that you can't think of the word "elephant" on Tuesdays, will you continue to ignore it until I provided a source to you?

    In other words, why should I believe you that such a thing as a deformed malach even exists? Just on your say so?

    The Wolf

    Posted 3 years ago #

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