Do you think the new political system in Israel without orthodox Jews will be permanent or will it soon change?
Future of Israel's Orthodox Jews(109 posts)
Who cares? The chiloni government cannot shove change upon us and actually expect us to change how the chiloni government wants us to change.
We will maintain all our current lifestyle as advised by our gedolim not as directed or pushed for by the government.
It must change eventually.
The Frum population is growing by leaps and bounds.
There are at least 18 orthodox jews in the government. They are:
Moshe Zalman Feiglin
Uri Yehuda Ariel
You gotta be kidding. Most of those are hardly Orthodox.
Ayelet Shaked? She's pure chiloni.
1. Actually some counts estimate over 30 Shomer Shabbos MKs, and a noticable part of all the anti-religious parties are Shomer Shabbos. This is a good sign. The fact that the leading enemy of the yeshiva wears a yarmulke is a clear improvement.
2. The conscription crisis will disappear over time. The anti-zionists will refuse regardless, and the Israelis will back off from being seen as persecuting peaceful religious fanatics. Public opinion is more concerned with getting hareidim in the "workplace" and that can best be accomplished by ending conscription (in which case all those who want to be Baal ha-battim but refuse to serve in the army will leave the yeshiva and get "on the books" jobs).
3. The hilonim are dying out since they enjoy material things, and that discourages them from having kids. We are doomed to take over.
Also, Hareidim can deal with the Arabs more realistically since we can make concessions that are meaningful to the Arabs whereas the hilonim can only offer land which is irrelevant. We can compromise on sovereignity and make Israel more of a middle eastern country, and the hilonim can't. Part of the increased fanaticism of the hilonim is since they have "read the writing on the wall" and realize they have no future basic on demographic factors that are not irreversible.
i think we begin a very slippery slope when we start judging how "orthodox" someone is and if we were to put ourselves to such a test who knows how we will fare. there will always be someone who thinks you are not orthodox enough. and some people are openly one way but secretly another so who knows! in any event, some of them are chareidi, such as Dov Lipman and chareidi zionist such as eli ben dahan.
Ayelet Shaked was mistakenly named on my list.
Lipman is Daati. (And anti-Chareidi.)
There will be change, there already is massive poverty in the Charedi communities.
As the Charedi communities become a larger and larger percentage of the population there will be fewer and fewer people earning money to pay the taxes that pay for yeshivas
The Charedim will be forced to go to work and when they realize they cant get very high paying jobs to support the large families because of limited education they will be forced to change their secular education bans
I think we can at least draw the line at being mechalel shabbos befarhesia.
What a chiddush- that there are yeshivos, and frum MK's who aren't Haredim.
It should be Hiddush and Yeshivot, rebdoniel. you're slipping.
"i think we begin a very slippery slope when we start judging how "orthodox" someone is and if we were to put ourselves to such a test who knows how we will fare"
Don't even think of trying that center left croc.
There is clear definition of who is Orthodox.
Personal observance is secondary. (Moses Mendelson was Orthodox? Shaul Lieberman? Avraham Burg?)
Feiglin, Katzele, and Ben-Dahan are Orthodox. Irrespective of disagreement of the application of certain mitzvos. The rest are either half or beyond the spectrum.
About Time: Huh? Who made you the arbiter of the definition of Orthodoxy? Dati leumi (which includes Feiglin, by the way) are Orthodox. R' Lipman is totally Orthodox, either frum-but-not-yeshivish or "left-wing yeshivish." R' Piron is a Rosh Yeshivah. Just because you disagree with their political opinions or their Zionism doesn't make them non-Orthdox.
Dov Lipman is a rav that got smicha from Ner Yisrael. He is most certainly charedi.
A good article on this issue from Cross-Currents:
The Coalition Plan For Charedim
By Yitzchok Adlerstein, on March 20th, 2013
The coalition government government’s plan for drafting charedim should give rise to some sighs of relief, and some guarded optimism. That is not likely to happen, because it is just not the way charedim in Israel react (at least publicly), and because there are definite grounds for concern.
It could have been much worse. Hence, the sigh of relief. Non-charedi Israels were determined to address the financial burden they believe is placed upon them by a huge community that is underemployed and expanding. Something was going to happen. As one major Torah figure said (privately, of course), “After decades of treating them like garbage, we should be surprised when they want to treat us the same way?” Many feared that the plan would be draconian and counterproductive. If it went too far, it would undo all the quiet progress that has already been made providing alternatives for those who do not find it within them to spend their time in productive, full-time learning and want to enter the work-force, or serve in Tzahal. While the public rhetoric in the community strenuously opposes both, literally thousands are voting with their feet. Programs to provide academic and vocational skills to charedi men and women are booming. The charedi contingent in the army has established itself, although the government’s performance in supporting it has been lackluster. It looked like economics was already forcing change, at a rate that was likely to accelerate. If the government would go too far, it would be taken as a gezeras shmad (which is in fact what one major Israeli Rosh Yeshiva called any plan to draft any number of students) and force all charedim to resist.
This did not happen. Like the plan or not, it does show some serious thought and consideration.
Nothing much happens for four years. Immediately, there are only dark clouds on the horizon for charedim – and many privately see it as the dawning of a brighter day. This minimizes the result of immediate (and even violent) pushback.
An exception, apparently, is that even immediately, anyone over the age of 22 is free to enter the workforce, even if he did not do any army service. We can anticipate that many will take advantage of this offer, and begin the slow process of having Israeli charedim accept what many, if not enough of us, do in the States: that there is room for both learners and earners.
The plan allows future 18 yr old potential inductees some choices. Today, roughly 7000 of those who turn 18 apply for exemptions, and are given them routinely. Starting four years from now, only 1800 top learners will be exempted – but given higher stipends than they are now given! They must stay in full-time learning until age 26, or incur penalties.
Everyone else will have three options. They can join the army for two years (the term of service is being cut down to that from the present three), at higher pay than is now offered. They can opt for serious national service for the same length of time, in the police, fire, or Zaka services – all for lesser pay. They can do none of the above, and continue to learn, but incur financial penalties. So will yeshivos that keep a large percentage of non-servers on their rolls. The Nachal Charedi program will be expanded over the next years in anticipation of the four year mark to make room for two more charedi battalions, including designated training facilities.
In other words, the images we were envisioning of massive arrests won’t happen. Shirking the government demand for sharing the burden of service will not be criminalized. There will be positive inducements to serve, and negative monetary ones for failing to serve. Rather than treat learning with complete contempt (as many here must be true of a secular government), the government will show its regard for traditional Torah learning by rewarding the top 25% of learners, and support them at State expense. This was not the reaction of the Tommy Lapids and his ilk. For whatever reason, the younger Lapid has displayed more diplomacy – and more wisdom.
It could have been much worse. The community will rail against these changes. (One headline read, “Lavan bikeish laakor es hakol! Lavan = Lapid, Bennet, Netanyahu.) Having gotten used to a certain life style for almost seven decades, this should be expected. It will have four years to either undo the “gezerah” if and when the present coalition falls apart, or learn to live with it. That could mean finally conceding (as so many do privately) that many are not cut out for full-time learning. This would bring relief to much of the grinding poverty in the community, and alleviate some of the walking out of frum life by kids going off the derech because they are boxed in by one-size fits all chinuch. Alternatively, the community could decide to swallow the bitter pill and still encourage universal learning, but have to take on the increased costs of paying the fines, probably by more fund-raising trips to America. (Jimmy the Greek’s odds on the latter successfully occurring in today’s economy are not so favorable. Perhaps HKBH Himself will weigh on by turning the economy around, and allowing that possibility!)
The school issue is more ticklish from the standpoint of the extremely anti-secular community in Israel. The government is demanding two and a half hours a day of core curriculum instruction. Schools which do not provide it will now be denied funds. Again, this becomes a funding crisis rather than grounds for a holy war against the nouveau-Czarist agents set to padlock the doors of the chadorim.
Again, it could have been handled more stupidly.
Many in the States (depending on where they daven) will be hard-pressed to find these measures as objectionable as people in Israel. Many undoubtedly will join the mourning, but others will daven that these measures will be successful in solving the growing problem of poverty and the burden that the charedi community is perceived to place on unwilling Israelis. Many will look expectantly to the building of a society in which the Torah community is seen as having the best and most attractive approach to living a meaningful life, attentive to all normal human needs.
Even the most optimistic should see that significant dangers lurk ahead. Those who think the new program completely understandable should still admit the possibility that future measures might be imposed that push ever more forcefully to make Torah authority and the Torah lifestyle take a back seat relative to the demands of the State. While we should not be overly rejectionist, we cannot afford to be naïve either.
Another danger is more insidious. The choosing of the 1800 yearly exemptions may go the same way as the reaction to the hated Cantonist draft of the Czars. Some rabbonim at the time excelled in their fairness in guarding the vulnerable, like the orphan children who were targets for the khappers (kidnappers paid off by the wealthy to secure replacements for their own children to escape the draft.) Others were not effective. If Roshei Yeshiva protect their own children and sons-in-law from service, or if there is significant infighting and no objective standard in choosing the 1800 elite on the basis of merit, it will bring down the charedi world faster than any universal draft could.
We all need much siyata deShamaya in charting our reactions in the next weeks and the course in the upcoming four years.
To the person who said "The Charedim will be forced to go to work and when they realize they cant get very high paying jobs to support the large families because of limited education they will be forced to change their secular education bans"
Also Hareidim dress funny. Also it is hard to do office politics (especially for the women since office politics, especially for a woman, involves showing off something other than how properly dressed she is). Also halacha seriously restricts many lines of work, and actually penalizes honest behavior (law and finance come to mind). Not being able to go to goyish restaurants (not just a matter of kashrus - Hooters, as an example, is treff even if it has a hecksher) is a problem since much business is done over meals. And then there is a problem that most hareidim place an emphasis of learning, mitsvos and family - none of which are really compatible with making it in the secular world. If a Hareidi needs to learn a goyish subject, they can and do. School is a social institution, but it isn't where you go to learn things. Learning is what you do yourself.
The principle economic problem for hareidim in Israel is that there is law prohibiting Jews from working unless they complete army service, and the army remains a hostile environment from someone who puts Torah ahead of anything else (remember, the more "modern" put defense of the land as a highest priority - a not too subtle difference). Eventually the Israelis will be forced to decriminalize "on the books" employment for hareidim, and the hareidi community will boom.
The typical, rational mindset convinces Westerners that they "can deal with the Arabs more realistically." The Arab world does not share that European sentiment. The Eastern mindset follows different rules. Arab agreements are temporary and intended to lull their enemies into a false sense of security. No one, regardless of religiosity or political persuasion is able to "deal with the Arabs more realistically."
"Moses Mendelson was Orthodox?"
Mendelssohn's contemporaries Rabbi Yaakov Emden and Rabbi Akiva Eiger took him seriously as an Orthodox scholar (and argued on his conclusions). After his death people used his name to justify things he would never have endorsed. And he would have been absolutely horrified at the actions of his children after his death.
" Shaul Lieberman?"
His contemporary Rav Hutner tried to recruit him to Chaim Berlin. Another contemporary Rav Soloveitchik was willing to serve on a Beit Din with him, and praised his Tosefta commentary. (Yesterday was his 30th Yahretzeit.)
" Avraham Burg?"
He was Orthodox but he may no longer be.
The Grush Lieberman's Tosefta Kipeshuta is in every yeshiva library.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe held by him, and so did the Hazon Ish, a cousin of his.
He resisted feminism, his followers are now within Orthodoxy, and for as long as he was at JTS, they had a mechitza.
AKUPERMA!!!So what in the world do you say??? That Chareidim can't work and must be supported by everybody else any place they live? Are you for real?!?!?!?!?
You gotta be kidding. Most of those are hardly Orthodox.
I'm sorry, tell us again why you are allowed to pass judgement on other people?
There is clear definition of who is Orthodox.
Maybe there is, but again, it's not your place to judge.
After the the passing of a new draft/public service law and the elections for the chief rabbinate and council are over both Shas and Agudah will join the govt. gleaning whatever crumbs that are left they have no choice or they lose their voters support "JOBS" and power is the key to political survival in Israel/
abra cadabra said:
''Lipman is Daati. (And anti-Chareidi.)''
I apologise for seeming pedantic but I must correct you here.
The word is Dati - as in the adjective for Dat/Das (=torah), not Daati which might mean 'intelligent' if it was a word at all, which I am not sure.
This simple error alone leads me to view your opinion with amusement.
''The principle economic problem for hareidim in Israel is that there is law prohibiting Jews from working unless they complete army service''
Do you seriously believe this?
I was sure that the principle problem was an institutionalised aversion to doing anything other than learning Torah - even if at the expense of others who are forced to support you when you come abroad collecting?
The stream of collectors in London is rapidly increasing to the point of often 7/8 every Shacharis, most of whom carry a certificate stating that they are collecting for ''debts'' (not medical emergencies etc which economics are not to blame for).
Many people here question if this system is sustainable in the long run, apart from the fact that the UK recession means people are less able to support their Israeli brethren. Not to mention the many Aniyai Ircho.
Things have to change, regardless of the draft situation.
yytz and takahmamash
Give your defintion
(We might be a different denomination)
This world has a purpose,
do you believe that?
Mendelsson cultivated a perception of himself and acted the part accordingly.
We know now from his private letters (research by R' Schwab) that the rot originated with him.
Even in his own terms, he was less Torah, more Kant
cf. Avos 1:3.
The Chasam Sofer saw right through it (which was an element in the detestation of him by the maskilim and the cynicism of their modox successors.)
"R' Hutner tried to recruit him" to save him. He warned Lieberman that if he stays in JTS, he will be denounced on every possible occasion.
R' Moshe Feinstein refused to grant recognition to his gittin.
(Then again R' M. Feinstein wouldn't recognize Rackman's either)
Their personal observance nevertheless was more puntilious than some of the aforementioned names cited.
As aside, arch zionist Rabbi Shalom Gold, Rabbi Emeritus of Y.I. of Har Nof, told me personaly half a decade ago, that seruga wearing Elazar Stern is an unqualified "Rasha merusha".
I can assume your desire to make the proof yet stronger.
Takamamash, not judging is a Christian virtue. By Yidden, we judge -- just according to certain rules.Look in the "Chofets Chaim".
Rav Soloveitchik and Rav Lieberman actually discussed forming a joint bet din, but the proposal failed due to anxieties within the RCA and even the RA, as well.
About Time: I do not know if it's true that R' Moshe wouldn't Kasher his Gittin. But if it is, it's because of his attempt to solve the "Agunah crisis", not because of anything personal. R' Lieberman may have overreached on that one, but it doesn't make him any less of a Talmid Chacham or less Orthodox. There are Orthodox Rabbonim who have done things with much less Halachic basis than he had on this issue.
About Time: There is clear definition of who is Orthodox.
takahmamash: Maybe there is, but again, it's not your place to judge.
So what is it?
And what is the clear definition of who is charedi? Whether they agree with other people who call themselves charedi?
About time: You're the one trying to exclude people who are commonly regarded as Orthodox, so I think you should be the one giving a definition.
Of course the world has a purpose. You really think dati leumi or MO don't believe that?
Mdd: Not so sure about that; see Avos 1:6 and 2:5. It's a Jewish value too, even if there may be exceptions.
The term Orthodox is a social and cultural grouping; a way of describing a certain social group.
That is, we may share many characteristics, and those characteristics are useful to predict what members of the group do, or who will be a member of the group but none manage to define the group.
Being shomer shabbos publicly is not a sufficient characteristic. There are conservative jews who keep shabbos publicly. Keeping shabbos publicly is probably a necessary characteristic, but privately is not.
Being presumed a kosher eid is also not a necessary characteristic. I posit that I would consider someone orthodox even who was a known child molester--if he davened in my shul and sent his kids to my school etc.
It is just a social grouping; people are orthodox who identify and act as part of the group.
At some point, there could feasibly be a split among the group who currently is pretty much one large group, and it will become two separate social groupings. When that happens, probably one of them will be given a new name (I propose: Open Orthodox, to signify that they want to pretend to be Orthodox, but don't feel bound by any of the Torah's rules besides the social justice ones which they invented by pulling out of a horse's tuches.)
So that's why attempts to define are futile and irrelevant--the question is only whether they are considered part of the social group. I don't know enough about the israeli politicians but Saul Lieberman (he should rot) was certainly not Orthodox even though he presumptively was better at keeping the torah than me besides for the dinnim of being a meisis umeidiach, which I am better at.
Shaul Lieberman is a red herring: he was the head of a Conservative rabbinical school. As far as I know, none of the Orthodox MKs mentioned above have any association whatsoever with the Conservative movement, which in any case barely exists in Israel. I've seen no evidence that even the left wing of the dati leumi community has a non-Orthodox hashkafa (such as denying Oral-Torah-from-Sinai) or halachic methodology.
PBA -"(I propose: Open Orthodox, to signify that they want to pretend to be Orthodox, but don't feel bound by any of the Torah's rules besides the social justice ones which they invented by pulling out of a horse's tuches.)"
They already have a term for this and it's called -Orthopraxy!
I agree with PBA; Orthodox is more of a social definition than a religious one. In the memorable words of R' Gifter: "I am not an Orthodox Jew. I am a Torah Jew."
"Starting four years from now, only 1800 top learners will be exempted"
That scares me. We all know that "top learner" is very arbitrary. At only 18 years old, the only thing people will be measuring is raw IQ, like a college SAT. It will not measure yiras shamayim. Some people only start to bloom later in life (at least mid 20's). With such a close knit society- who your parents are and what connections you have is going to be a deciding factor as well.
Other posters, please try to limit your posts to the topic at hand.
We NEVER has mass Kollel learning, In Europe ONLY the top learners kept in yeshiva, the rest went to work.
Its only the welfare state that has allowed Kollel to exist, get rid of the welfare and kollel will cease to exist as it cannot be paid for.
Actually some counts estimate over 30 Shomer Shabbos MKs, and a noticable part of all the anti-religious parties are Shomer Shabbos. This is a good sign. The fact that the leading enemy of the yeshiva wears a yarmulke is a clear improvement.
מחריביך ממך יצאו
We NEVER has mass Kollel learning, In Europe ONLY the top learners kept in yeshiva, the rest went to work.
I love how you only dislike changes when it increases yidishkeit, but anything which decreases yidishkeit is good adapting to the times. I'd like to see the gehenom I'll get from learning too much torah.
Anyway, I figured out the real pshat. And I'll debut it in a new thread. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-real-pshat-in-universal-kollel
"We NEVER had mass Kollel learning, In Europe ONLY the top learners kept in yeshiva, the rest went to work."
I am not saying you are wrong, but can you please provide a source?
I personally do not understand the concept of "top learners". I have never met a "top learner". All the guys who take their learning seriously are "top learners". If you want to go back in time why stop at Europe? Why not go to eretz yisroel and bavel where all the "top learners" also worked.
What comes first the chicken or the egg? Do you not have to work because you are a top learner or are you a top learner because you don't have to work?
When your kids are screaming because they are hungry, When the Power Company cuts off the Heat and Electric because they werent paid.
When the Creditors call you at all hours of the night demanding to be paid because your Visa and MC are Maxed out and Late payments
When the Landlord threatens to evict you for non-payment of rent
Not to mention your wife no matter how much an Ashes Chayil cannot but any food or wear anything that isnt ragged and torn, how much she will be upset
If that is Gan Eden...Id like to know what Gehenom is
Yytz, see sefer "Chofets Chaim".
thegra: The ones who learned were the ones who showed their brilliance young and got sponsors. You know the famous story with the grocer who sponsored three yeshivah bochurim who turned out to be three gedolim of the next generation (I think one was R' Yaakov Kamenetsky)? The fact is that without the sponsorship, who knows what would've happened today- and who knows how many gedolim there were in potential who weren't sponsored and did whatever they did with their lives. Most people weren't so lucky.
Actually, purely from a scientific point of view, it would be an interesting experiment- If we had the data of how many boys there were at a given time period who could have gone to yeshivah, how many did, and then how many of those became rabbanim and marbitzei Torah, and then took similar statistics today and see how they measure up. Not meant to be pro- or anti-anything yet- just genuinely curious, because I can see it working either way.
The Grush Lieberman never once denied any of the ikkarei haemunah.
And if he was so bad, than how did he maintain a kesher with Rav Soloveitchik, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rav Hutner, and scores of other gedolim?
His Tosefta Kifeshuta and Yerushalmi Kifeshuta are found on the shelves of any serious talmid chacham and are found in the libraries of many yeshivot.
I am fortunate to have many of his students as teachers.
Those rabbonim were in contact with Mr. Lieberman only before he went off the derech and became an apikorus by joining the Conservative movement.
We also had a Kohen Gadol who was the gadol hador until he was 90 years old when he became a tzeduki, thus an apikorus, and lost everything he earned for 90 years of being a tzadik earning himself instead a place in gehenim.
He actually never joined the movement. Hhe served as chancellor at its seminary. 2 different things. There are Orthodox scholars who teach in universities and non-Orthodox institutions. If anything, they have a good hashpa'ah on those who are not yet frum.
Regardless, my hope is that R' Stav is elected Chief Rabbi, and I think that ultimately, the humbling that the Haredi parties will experience will do them good in the long run.
"Regardless, my hope is that R' Stav is elected Chief Rabbi, and I think that ultimately, the humbling that the Haredi parties will experience will do them good in the long run."
What does that have to do with anything else said on this topic?
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