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Chillul Hashem on the school bus

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  1. Health
    Member

    This news you won't find anywhere. A bunch of Yeshiva boys on the way to School today were misbehaving so badly that the driver had to pull over and wait until the cops came. Now I've seen Goyishe kids yell out the window of their bus about Jews and Jewish women and I've seen Litvishe kids yelling "Yoily" on Chasiddishe kids.
    And Chasiddish kids yelling at Livish kids. And Frum kids making fun of fat women they pass from their bus. But this incident shows how far these kids have gone. I wonder when did the parents and the Mechanchim (Yeshivas) stop teaching Derech Erez Kodma L'torah? How did we become just like the Goyim, that when there isn't a parent or a Rebbe watching us, we need the cops around to make us behave?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. The Goq™
    Founder, President, Vice President and CEO of the CR Welcome Wagon!

    Maybe its good chinuch to call the cops so the kids dont think that everything in the world will be handled internally and in secret and that there are real consequences for bad behavior.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. HaKatan
    Gadol Yihiyeh

    No. We are *very much* NOT "just like the goyim" even if these kids expressed themselves with a lack of derech eretz.

    There may be room for improvement, but these are not "goyim".

    While I am not denying this seems like a chilul Hashem, which is deplorable, the general secular culture is falling hard and fast, and this affects everyone.

    We have lost a massive amount of gedolim in the past few years, and, as we know from VaYetzei, the departure of a tzaddik from a place makes an appreciable difference.

    Again, I am not claiming this is justified, but it's not difficult to understand how it could have happened.

    May we all merit the true geula BB"A.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. Yenta
    Member

    "How did we become just like the Goyim"

    Keep on shoving Lipa Schmeltzer down your kids throats, then they act like a bunch of goyish kids. I'll stop while I'm ahead, but please don't even start with the "oh he's such a tremendous Tzadik....he sings for the sick kids in the hospitals"....
    This type of trash is having a terrible hashpoa on our children. Just like violent video games are having on society and causing violence across the country.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. Health
    Member

    The Goq™ -"Maybe its good chinuch to call the cops so the kids dont think that everything in the world will be handled internally and in secret and that there are real consequences for bad behavior."

    Oh it's definitely a good lesson, but we are supposed to teach our kids, not the Goyim. We obviously have failed.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. Health
    Member

    HaKatan -"No. We are *very much* NOT "just like the goyim" even if these kids expressed themselves with a lack of derech eretz.
    There may be room for improvement, but these are not "goyim"."

    Mr. whomever you are, you took my words out of context. I never said we are like them in everything, just in behavior on a bus.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. Toi
    beware the cleats

    look at me driving, in my ferrari!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. MorahRach
    Member

    Our kids are NOT like the goyim. That is a bad situation and humiliating if the passerby knew the children were Jewish, but still we are on a different level. I taught 5th/6th grade two years ago, and you probably would my believe the things those kids were Into.. And they were ultra ultra reformed, not goyim. I usually hate the comparison between different sects of Jews ( in a negative way) we are all Hashems children but I just wanted to point out that there is a big difference. I don't know many goyish children but I so know Jewish kids in public schools and they are worlds apart from ours. Please everyone don't jump on what I said.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. mommamia22
    Member

    All those behaviors you mentioned seem pretty horrible to me. Just screaming out the window is not mentchlech and becoming of a yeshiva child. Making fun of someone who looks or is different (litvish as opposed to chassidish, heavy, thin, etc) reflects, in my opinion, the intolerance that pervades our community at large. If we can tolerate throwing rocks or yelling obscenities at those who are different, how can we actually expect our kids to be different. They don't see us or hear us??
    How do we act towards our spouses?
    I've heard of pretty awful bullying in schools and camps, chutzpah towards teachers, etc..
    How should this be dealt with??? Discipline and our chinuch system are not making a long term impact.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. zahavasdad
    Member

    I have a friend who has simcha from YU. He taught at a Satmar School for a year. The kids would call him a Shaygetz.

    If the kids are calling the Rebbes a Shaygetz , How do you think they will behave around others.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. crisisoftheweek
    infantilization is tragic

    Gee...you go around teaching kids that the goyim are "subhuman" and it's ok to cheat and steal from them...then you wonder about behavior like this. Because the kids think that they can act like animals and their being "frum" automatically makes them better than the rest of the universe, without the refined behavior to back it up.

    Kids are remarkably observant and will pick up on ideas and modes of behavior no matter how subtle. So the child who hears his father talk about the "shvartze" in his office and how dumb he is will learn it's ok to talk/think like that. Same with how people from different frum sects are treated. When the childs school is pushing their own brand of "Torah True Judaisim" with no respect for anyone else, its no wonder why they would tease other kids about things like that.

    But yeah, it's much easier to blame entertainers who are perceived to not be frum.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. akuperma
    Member

    Most parents (as opposed to non-parents), of all races, religions and cultures, will smile and note that children all seem to have been created from the same mold (or if they are secular, evolved from the same monkey). Children are like that. They always have been. They always will be. It isn't really something to be worried about. It would be nice if children were perfect minature adults, but if Ha-Shem want things to be like that, he would have have created אדם as a reptile, since reptiles when hatched from the egg are fully formed and fully programmed with all the midos they will ever need. That fact that children need to grow up, even if it is a bit messy, appears to be by design, and who are we the question the Designer.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. BaalHabooze
    On the rocks

    I am not surprised by all this, but at the same time I'm appalled. It's reaaly REALLY terrible, and that is why there should be an adult (teacher or Rebbi) on the school buses. How do you THINK kids will act, when they can freely release that build up of tension after a day of school, with no authority to stop them? And the poor bus drivers bear the brunt of their pranks insults and misbehavior.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. Health
    Member

    MorahRach -"Our kids are NOT like the goyim."

    Another poster who didn't read my post. I said the Frum kids are just like Goyish kids with their behavior on the school bus.
    The Goyish kids when they act up on the bus -you need to call the cops to put them in their place. The same with the Frum kids. No more respect for anyone. I understand that kids act up -I did too when I was a kid, but when s/o in authority pulls the bus over -we all would straighten up years ago. And all we needed is the driver to yell, not even pull over - to behave.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. Health
    Member

    BaalHabooze -"How do you THINK kids will act, when they can freely release that build up of tension after a day of school, with no authority to stop them?"

    The Chiddush here is that this happenned in the morning on the way to school, not on the way back. As a matter of fact, I never seen Goyish kids act up on the way there.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. Health
    Member

    akuperma -"Children are like that. They always have been. They always will be. It isn't really something to be worried about."

    This is an extremly poor excuse/defense. I was also a kid once and noone ever behaved this way. Even though Niskatnu Hadoros, the difference between nowadays and my generation is like many Doros.
    This is a failure in the system whether you'll admit it or Not!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    Health
    This shouldn't happen in any Yeshivah and I won't ask which yeshivah it was, however can it be that the driver overreacted? Kids are kids and they tend to be wild on the bus although usually more wild on the way home. Also why wasn't there a "bus monitor" on the bus to help maintain decorum?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. Bustercrown
    Member

    I too have seen appalling behavior from yeshiva kids on the school bus. In one particular incident, a well known yeshiva in marine park has a bus stop right near my house, and one day when many neighbors, frum, as well as non-jewish, were sitting out on their porches, as one boy got off the bus, another shouted out from the window of the bus, "bye, you $&?!$& idiot!" as the rest of the boys proceeded to laugh. I was mortified in front of a non Jewish neighbor! Another day, when this same bus from the same yeshiva let out in front of my house, and my husband happened to come outside for a moment to put the trash out wearing a t-shirt, one boy from the bus yelled to him, "hey, put on a ?!$(&' shirt!" I then called the principal of the yeshiva to voice my disgust. What kinds of ones do these kids come from?!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. mommamia22
    Member

    I agree there should be an adult monitor on the bus.
    A driver who needs to focus on the road can't give proper attention. I imagine it must be very stressful to be a driver, having to keep to a very tight schedule with unpredictable traffic, tardy parents/kids, and deafening noise and chatter.
    If a child throws something out a window and it hits someone, into whose hands is the liability placed??
    Probably the bus company.
    To a certain degree mischief is part of childhood. Isn't there a story about the Chafetz Chaim when he was a little boy that he and some friends filled the buckets of the water carrier at night (as a practical joke) so in the morning it would be frozen? Immediately after he had tremendous regret and did teshuva.
    I think what's relevant is the misbehavior, chutzpah and mischief keep going. There's no internal accountability and ineffective external accountability.
    We've failed to teach our children what it means to be good people and that it's important all the time.
    Maybe we don't know either.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. tzaddiq
    Member

    so you probably also noticed the up-coming school bus strike, see

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/149783/Heads-Up-Parents%21-Possible-School-Bus-Strike-In-NYC.html

    can't wait for all the new threads to open and tell us that this is a punishment for our kids' behaviour, and that hurricane sandy was just a warning! tee hee hee

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. apushatayid
    Member

    An incident with one bus full of yeshiva boys out of how many buses filled with yeshiva boys that traverse the tri state area every day? Yes, one incident is one too many, but the hyperbole of some is outrageous to the point where the OP writes "How did we become just like the Goyim, that when there isn't a parent or a Rebbe watching us, we need the cops around to make us behave?" Of course this was later watered down to only on the bus, but elsewhere not. I guess even the OP is starting to realize just how ridiculous that statement is.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. mommamia22
    Member

    This behavior is NOT limited to the bus.
    I'm aware of extremely nasty behavior on the part of yeshiva boys (and not from one yeshiva).
    This is a very pervasive problem.
    Just because it escalated only now to the point of a driver feeling the need to call the cops doesn't mean there aren't tons of incidences where kids' behavior has gotten really out of hand. This one just made the news.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. HaKatan
    Gadol Yihiyeh

    Health, while you may have intended differently, this is what you wrote:
    "How did we become just like the Goyim, that when there isn't a parent or a Rebbe watching us, we need the cops around to make us behave?"

    You rhetorically stated (asked) how it is that we, meaning the kids, are just like the goyim. To which I (and others) answered that, in fact, we (including the kids) are not "just like the goyim".

    Chachamim Hizaharu Bidivreichem...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    momma
    Well all you can do is educate them to your best ability. Most parents don't get it but one word from a parent is worth a 1000 from a Rebbe. What they see and hear you do has a 1000x the impact anything their Rebbe or Morah can say. If their parents have "loose" lips and say not nice things the kid will take after the parents in most cases. When kids get older and spend more time in yeshiva this may change but in the younger years most education happens in the home.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. Health
    Member

    WIY -"Also why wasn't there a "bus monitor" on the bus to help maintain decorum?"

    I guess noone wants to volunteer for the job. And I guess the Yeshiva won't pay for it either. The cop actually called the Menahel to come down and ride with the bus. I don't know if he did or not.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. Health
    Member

    apushatayid -"Yes, one incident is one too many, but the hyperbole of some is outrageous to the point where the OP writes "How did we become just like the Goyim, that when there isn't a parent or a Rebbe watching us, we need the cops around to make us behave?" Of course this was later watered down to only on the bus, but elsewhere not. I guess even the OP is starting to realize just how ridiculous that statement is."

    No, I stand by my statement. Just because you took it out of context doesn't mean it wasn't factual. I didn't say they are like the Goyim because they do drugs all day. Reread the post.

    Are you from the type that doesn't take "Derech Erez Kodma L'torah" seriously? There must be a lot in our community like this because the kids learn behavior from their Rebbeyim and parents. If these people are lacking in this - it filters down to the kids. And I don't know about the whole NY/NJ area, but I do know about Lakewood and hardly ever are cops called to the PS buses. And the Goyim that live here are Not what you call from the upper class. So just maybe you should think that perhaps this type of behavior is a Chillul Hashem, which is a very bad Aveira, in spite of the fact they haven't made an Asifa about this!?!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. Health
    Member

    HaKatan -"You rhetorically stated (asked) how it is that we, meaning the kids, are just like the goyim. To which I (and others) answered that, in fact, we (including the kids) are not "just like the goyim"."

    I know what I wrote, but I wrote it after other words -this is called a context. So about not taking my words out of context?

    "Chachamim Hizaharu Bidivreichem..."

    Edited

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. Nechomah
    Member

    Health - "I guess noone wants to volunteer for the job. And I guess the Yeshiva won't pay for it either. The cop actually called the Menahel to come down and ride with the bus. I don't know if he did or not."

    In the school where my girls go, they have a bus for girls from preschool up until 3rd grade. They arrange for a girl who is at least 15 or so to accompany the girls to school and on the way home one of the teachers who finishes at that hour goes home with them. This way no one is "volunteering" rather they are getting a free ride. I am sure it is harder for the student to maintain decorum on the bus, but I would hope that a teacher would be able to maintain some control of the students.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. Derech HaMelech
    Informative Contributor to the CR

    I would blame the school.
    Unless I work there. Then it's the parents' fault.

    I think supervision on the bus would have prevented the issue to some extent. But on the other hand, it's not that easy to manage a whole bus of children. They are more like sheep than we are and a few kids can make the whole bus go crazy. Unfortunately, the lead sheep is never a lemele. That's just how children are. It's our job to train them out of this behavior and teach them to be self-critical by the time they reach adulthood. But you don't expect a 3 month old child to start walking and you shouldn't expect bus-age children to not act like sheep.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. apushatayid
    Member

    Health, there you go again with the hyperbole and your just like goyim claims. Of course you temper that statement when you write "but....", you temper it because you realize just how ridiculous the statement is.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. Does anyone have a clue what this story allegedly is? Has anyone heard it anywhere else.

    I wonder if the reason you won't find this anywhere else is because it didn't happen.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. HaKatan
    Gadol Yihiyeh

    Health, I did and do understand the context. But I still feel the words chosen still were at least a possible indicator of what I wrote, which, if that were the case, would be improper.

    So, despite my respect for you and your opinions, I still maintain that the post should have been worded differently.

    I also respect your opinion if you disagree with me on this, but I do maintain my opinion as I stated here.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. WIY
    Managed to post for 3 years without getting a subtitle

    Mod are you asleep? MashaChava is troll and retarded did you really read what she wrote?!
    She/He should he monitored carefully.

    Yes, we are sorry that got through.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. mommamia22
    Member

    Mashachava
    You talk about goyim like they're stupid.
    Your post shows ignorance and hatefulness, none of which are an ohr lagoyim.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. And troll time has come. Tell me, mods, how did the above post by "MashaChava" get through? Seems to me like this Chava sure has a (s)mashed head, by the way it talks.

    Now, ontopic: those who say "a bus monitor would prevent this" are not getting the point. When I was 10 years old, I already travelled all alone to school 100 miles from home (200 miles per day) using 2 buses and 3/4 trains. I never yelled anything at anyone.

    The problem is not the "lack of supervision", it is that these 'kids' behave the way they do. Frum kids - nor non-frum, nor non-Jewish kids - should not behave like this, regardless of any supervision. There are no excuses for such behavior.

    If I were principal of a school, one such incident would be reason for suspension and multiple would be reason for expulsion. I would not want such 'kids' around the others. They belong in jail...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. haifagirl
    Chief of Grammar Enforcement Commandos

    I taught in a frum girls' high school for nearly a year. I could not believe how badly behaved those girls were. When I was that age, we never would have dreamed of that kind of behavior, and that was in public school.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. Health
    Member

    MashaChava -"Id <3 to see a bus load of goyim kids flip over that would make my year!!!! Baruch Hashem!!!"

    None of your post makes any sense, but are you saying you want Goyim to be hurt or killed? Your post is the weirdest I've ever seen!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. Health
    Member

    apushatayid -"Health, there you go again with the hyperbole and your just like goyim claims. Of course you temper that statement when you write "but....", you temper it because you realize just how ridiculous the statement is."

    I didn't say it again. I said that I stand by my OP. The statement isn't ridiculous, no matter how many times You repeat the same thing! I didn't temper anything -that's the context. I'm sorry that you can't comprehend this -it's not that difficult.
    What exactly are You in Denial about?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. Health
    Member

    nishtdayngesheft -"I wonder if the reason you won't find this anywhere else is because it didn't happen."

    Are you hungry? If you are -look up at the sky at night and there is a big round cheese. Feel free to take as much as you want.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  40. apushatayid
    Member

    Health: Lets say this incident is 100% true as you write it, the kids were horrible, rotten to the core, the driver had no recourse but to call the police to restore law and order, are WE (all yeshiva boys who ride the bus) like the goyim because a bus load of boys acted like a bunch of jerks? What percentage of yeshiva boys who ride the bus daily in the tri state area engage in such behavior? Do you believe the bus drivers are paid off to keep these incidents quiet? You think there is an epidemic of "goyish behavior" on school busses everywhere that "we" in general and I in particular am in denial about? If this is such an epidemic, where were you decrying this outrageous behavior, prior to this news item? Was it kept under wraps until now, and this story just blew the lid off a major hush campaign?

    Lastly, and this really should have been the very first question asked....when you wrote "This news you won't find anywhere." How is it that you are privy to this news which nobody else will find, anywhere? I suppose we should thank you for sharing it with us.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  41. computer777
    Member

    apushatayid: My sentiments exactly. Excellent! +1

    Posted 1 year ago #
  42. phdmom
    Member

    i object to calling our kids "just like the goyim". yes, some frum kids act like vilde chayos. and i would agree with previous posters, that this is an isolated incident, and it would not be fair to call it a generalization. BUT i do agree that a lack of middos has become commonplace in many frum areas, some more than others. unfortunately, chilul hashem is a foreign concept to many. it bothers me tremendously.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  43. Health,

    Your latest comments makes as much sense as most of your other comments. None.

    And, there is nothing you have ever said here that would give me, or anyone else, reason to believe that you portrayed an accurate picture of events. Your many other comments show you have quite a skewed sense of reality, to put it kindly.

    You really should not howl every time you see the cheese.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  44. mi pueblo
    Member

    Ay caramba.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  45. Health
    Member

    nishtdayngesheft -"And, there is nothing you have ever said here that would give me, or anyone else, reason to believe that you portrayed an accurate picture of events."

    Of course not! The bus driver never called the cops. She never pulled over. (I just made that up -she instead of he. Like it?)
    The cops never came.
    How much money are you gonna give me if I prove it to you? Probably none -so I'm not going to waste my time.
    If you want to research it yourself -you can go to LPD (Lakewood Police) on 3rd St. and look it up. They always write reports, not like NYC.

    "You really should not howl every time you see the cheese."

    I really can't howl anymore because it ain't there. You ate it for lunch!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  46. Health
    Member

    apushatayid -"What percentage of yeshiva boys who ride the bus daily in the tri state area engage in such behavior?"

    What percentage of Goyishe boys who ride the bus daily in the tri state area engage in such behavior?

    "Do you believe the bus drivers are paid off to keep these incidents quiet?"

    No, I don't believe this. Why would you think that I'd hold this?

    "You think there is an epidemic of "goyish behavior" on school busses everywhere that "we" in general and I in particular am in denial about? If this is such an epidemic, where were you decrying this outrageous behavior, prior to this news item? Was it kept under wraps until now, and this story just blew the lid off a major hush campaign?"

    Let me explain my OP. Maybe you can't understand my point. The boys on this bus were acting like Goyim. The "we" was represented by those boys. I thought this was obvious from my OP. The fact that this hardly has happenned till now and it's not an epidemic doesn't mean there is no problem with some kids and outrageous behavior. You seem to be blowing up this whole description of this incident to make it out like I don't have a point. I have a point whether you agree with my wording or Not!

    "Lastly, and this really should have been the very first question asked....when you wrote "This news you won't find anywhere." How is it that you are privy to this news which nobody else will find, anywhere? I suppose we should thank you for sharing it with us."

    Actually that line might not be accurate. I just figured that the Frum news media wouldn't write about it and I was correct. I didn't see anything about this in the Frum Lakewood media, let alone (Frum) elsewhere. I honestly don't know if the APP (Asbury Park Press) wrote about it, but probably not because it's something that probably didn't peak their interest - if they even knew about it. And it's not worth my time to check their paper just to see if that one line of mine is 100% correct.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  47. mi pueblo
    Member

    A similar story appears on the lakewood scopp site. Only that story is dated from a few yearslago

    Posted 1 year ago #
  48. Health
    Member

    mi pueblo -"A similar story appears on the lakewood scopp site. Only that story is dated from a few yearslago"

    You're talking about this story:

    "Parents Of 4 Bachurim Arrested Considering Legal Action
    Dec 17 2010 9:38 am
    Four Bachurim accused of harassing a Klarr bus driver, were detained at Police Headquarters after the bus driver told police she felt threatened, and now parents are considering legal action, TLS has learned. The incident occurred Tuesday evening on Forest Avenue when the woman called police and claimed she felt threatened by the Bachurim’s racial slurs.

    Upon arrival, after questioning the bus driver and the Bachurim, police decided to detain the Bachurim with “probable cause”, Police Chief Rob Lawson tells TLS.

    After that decision, one of the police officers reportedly placed one of the minors in cuffs, an official tells TLS. However, another officer objected to that and had him removed from the cuffs the official said.

    The Bachurim were then taken to headquarters and questioned by police, and were released to their parents a short time later.

    However, parents of the minors are considering legal action against the bus company TLS has learned, after the driver of the bus reportedly told the children that they would not be let off at their stops, which an official tells TLS, “that borders kidnapping”.

    Meanwhile, because the woman is black, the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People), has gotten involved, Lawson tells TLS.

    “I’m not taking any sides right now”, Lawson says.

    Askonim, local officals as well as attorneys are heavily involved in the case. TLS."

    It's not so clear in that story who was in the Wrong. It was again in the news a few months ago. It seems in that story that the driver started up and the Bachurim responded in kind. They probably should have left her comments alone and then reported her later on.

    While in this incident, even though I wasn't on the bus -it was just the kids and the driver -noone else, there doesn't seem to be any claim against the bus driver. It just looks like a bunch of kids behaving so badly and refusing to calm down that it was impossible for her to continue driving with the requirement that the driver has of a safe operation of the bus.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  49. MashaChava_60
    Blocked

    "Mashachava
    You talk about goyim like they're stupid.
    Your post shows ignorance and hatefulness, none of which are an ohr lagoyim."- mommmia

    You are right. I come her to troll because my husband doesn't respect me and I have aggression to get out.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  50. mommamia22
    Member

    Mashachava
    Why don't you truly ask yourself why your post was deleted, and why so many people objected to it.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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