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maxwell thats like a 6000 word post no way I can read that pare it down for brevity sake.
As a matter of personal policy, I don’t even bother responding to people who try to bury you under mounds and mounds of copied text.
I feel that if you want to make a point, do so. Summarize the point in your own words and provide the location where I can check the original reference if I so desire.
In short, I don’t debate copying machines.
The Wolf
I am sure that if R’ Chaim Kanievsky was talking to a pashuta businessman he nightv’e said that for work purposes it might be mutar to shave. I once heard from R’ Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg shilta that you are allowed to shave but not press hard with ANY type of elctric shaver and you have to be especially careful with the “lift and cuts.” Those types even with little pressure might constitute an issur d’oraisa.
There are obviously different opinions on this question by different poskim.
People who do shave have whom to rely on.
However, I think it is fair to say the following…
1. It is the “traditional” way (at the least) for Jewish men to have a beard. I
I have heard it said by Rav Amnon Yitzchak that the reason Yemenite Jews call their payos “simanim” is because in Yemen, it being a moslem country, ALL the men have beards, and ALL the men wear a head covering. Soooo, the sign (the siman) that differentiates a Jew from a moslem, is his payos. I would say that in the western (xtian) world, we might, to some degree at least, say this applies to having a beard.
2. Al pi Kabala, “shefa” flows to a person via the beard.
3. “Lift and Cut” type shavers are definitely assur.
AINOHD,
dont make it blanket rulings when its not the case.
wolf, good policy
TO: arc…
What did I write that is a “blanket ruling” that is “not the case” (other than that “lift and cut” shavers are assur)?
If you disagree with the statement about “lift and cut” shavers, I would love to know what/who you base the disagreement upon?
I LEARNT (RECENTLY) IN A prominent yeshiva in the tri state area well known and very yeshivish my rosh yeshiva is very makpid that bochrim may not grow beards
It’s intriguing that buried in maxwell’s copy-and-paste is the assertion that according to the Chazon Ish a shaver is equivalent to powder. NOONE would asser powder as giluach.
Hello99, you’ve asserted you have the ”vast majority” of poskim on your side. So far we have cited by posters here on this thread maare makoms against shaving by the CI, CC, Steipler, R. Kanievsky, R. Yaakov Kaminetzky, R. Shach, R. Vozner, R. Shternbuch, R. Elyashev, and a whole host of other Gedolei Yisroel past and present in both EY and Ch’L. Who, and how many of your ”vast majority”, of anyone of this caliber and stature can you cite — especially with maare mekomos??
ainohd there are poskim that are matir lift and cut.
helpful where did it say R’Yackov was against shaving? I know his grandchildren shaved.
Helpful,
There’s a name to this game that you’re playing. It’s called “my rav is bigger than your rav.” I don’t play that game.
The fact of the matter is that I am free to ask my local rav what the proper thing to do is — and if he tells me that shaving is muttar, then it’s fine for me, regardless of any list of gedolim that you put up.
My rav is a graduate of BMG with semicha from that institution. He was a talmid of R. Shmuel Zalman Auerbach and studied at Ponovezh in B’nei Brak. He is an extremely well-spoken gentlemen who has Shas and Poskim at his fingertips*. He is known to be m’dakdek in the mitzvos. I am satisfied that he has studied and is knowledgeable enough in halacha to be able to answer halachic questions to my satisfaction.
And he’s clean-shaven.
Bottom line is that I’m free to follow my local rav and I’m on solid ground if I do so. If not, then there’s no point in having local rabbanim at all. Simply appoint the biggest Rav as the Jewish equivelant of the Pope.
Since I’m free to follow my local Rav and he obviously holds that shaving is okay, then I, too, may shave – regardless of how long your list of gedolim is. I don’t play “my rav is bigger than your rav.”
The Wolf
* I never cease to marvel at his ability to tell you what daf any particular Gemara is on or what siman in S”A any particular halacha is in — and he can do it without any advance notice.
Can someone please post one Posek that assurs not growing a beard without the question of taar according to nigle, i.e., using scissors or powder-cream, as well as tweezers. I personally asked Rav Elyashiv this question when I was a bochur. I know plenty of people who were addressed by Reb Chayim about this as well.
Kitzur Shulchan Aruch:
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Unless the KSA holds that todays electric shavers are a “taar”, he permits shaving with them. Rav Heineman is of the opinion that most shavers are not a “taar”, the link to his teshuva on the Star-K website has been posted several times. R’ Heineman also quotes R’ Moshe but unfortunately, doesnt cite the source (a Yad Moshe will find it quickly).
I was also present in front of Rav SZ Auerbach, when a bachur asked him a shaila as well, and he quoted the Chozen Ish.
hello99,
The entire raison d’etere of your argument against eating the fish in the ‘Worms in Fish’ thread controversy, was that even though some choshov rabbonim mattired the fish, since the vast majority of Gedolei Yisroel was against eating the fish we should follow that majority of Gedolim.
To be consistent with your own reasoning and argument on the fish issue, you need to be moida that since the vast majority of Gedolei Yisroel are against shaving off the beard, we should not shave off the beard.
Time to rid yourself of that Norelco and start looking like a Yid. 🙂
I have never learned the halachos related to shaving, nor read the Zohar. But it would seem to me that if there already are halachos in place that discuss the permissible and impermissible ways to shave, that this would seem to indicate (at least to unlearned me) that there in fact is a heter to shave. Kind of like an eruv… ya know how some people absolutely insist that it is wrong, wrong, wrong to utilize an eruv, and yet there is an entire mesechta devoted to exactly the proper way to do so! It’s even called Eruvin. Go figure…
hello99 – looking through the lists I see some of the same Gedolim on the record against the worms in fish are against shaving.
helpful: “Time to rid yourself of that Norelco and start looking like a Yid. :-)”
Personal insults are not “helpful” to a constructive discussion of the topic. Actually I have a long, full beard and my sons do not shave either, but I do not hold it is assur to shave.
I have already quotes Shulchan Aruch, Rema, Shach Taz, Chasam Sofer, and Rab Moshe is matir a number of places in Igros Moshe as well as by oral testimony of numerous talmidim.
On the other hand you have only quoted hearsay evidence to the Poskim you quote. Nothing from the Chazon Ish’s seforim, in fact he was only “disgusted” with shaving, but he equated it l’halacha with powder which is muttar. The Chofetz Chaim is a misquote, as he did not refer to electric shavers which did not exist when he wrote Likutei Halachos. When I learned in Philly many decades ago, Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky shlita insisted that the bachurim shave and said that the quote in Emes l’Yaakov is untrue.
So I think it is clear that the vast majority of Poskim have always and still do permit shaving, as long as it is not done with a razor.
There were no electric shavers for the SA, Rema, CS, et al to rule on, so their discussions dont pertain to it. Since the CC assered the equipment of even his day, nowadays the shavers do a much closer shave so surely if the CC was against it then, the newer equip. is all the worse. So how many, and which, Gedolim can you cite regarding electric shavers, as the vast majority thus far cited by maxwell and others are against? (Sorry for the Norelco quip, it was a joke.)
Here’s a Godol, the senior leading Kabbalist in Klal Yisroel today:
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%94_%D7%93%D7%91%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A6%D7%A7%D7%99
Here’s a quote from that site:
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Hello,
:incredulous: you dont force your way on everyone else! You think it’s proper to have a beard, but there’s still a heter to shave.
How could it be?!?
I once heard from a Chassidishe Posek and Rav in Europe, that the RAMCHAL supposedly was shaven…
Logic Flaw:
A Ta’ar is a Ta’ar, no matter how unclose.
A Non-Taar is a Non-Ta’ar, no matter how close.
See Hair Removal Powder.
There is nothing to argue. (unless I need to post the Star-K’s ruling AGAIN?)
Yes, it depends on how close.
Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank I believe was the first to mattir a shaver.
fabie:
Only to the point of defining a Ta’ar, or Shaving.
But you are correct it is relevent.
hello99, on the worms issue you repeatedly said you were listing those gedolim “against” eating it, even if they didnt say it is halachicly assur.
Hello99, please provide your list whenever you find it. We’re sincerely awaiting it. (You had no trouble making a list on the worms thread. On this thread the vast majority listed are on the record as against.)
un-Helpful: I’ve already pointed out that most of your list of ossrim is a figment of your imagination. The Chazon Ish equated shavers with powder which is unanimously muttar, The Chofetz Chaim did not have electric shavers he assered the safety razor which is certainly a ta’ar, Reb Yaakov Kamintzky also never assered a shaver according to his son Reb Shmuel yblc. None of your other “sources” are any more then hearsay, which is not reliable.
However Reb Moshe Feinstein, Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky, Rav Heineman, Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank, and all Litvishe Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshivos have consistantly permitted shaving with an electric shaver.
Goodbye, it wasnt my list. The against list had maare mekomos. What is the source to your hearsay that those permitted?
Lets try to avoid the trap of making this issue into a personal fight and return it to a rational discussion of the halachic issues involved.
The conclusion of the Gemarra in Makkos is that the only prohibition on shaving the beard is when it involves both giluach (shaving in the normal manner) and hashchasa (destroying the hairs to below the skin level). The Gemara writes that pulling out hairs with a tweezers is permitted because it is hashchasa without giluach and cutting with a scissors is permitted because it is giluach without hashchasa. The Beis Yosef writes that misparaim kein ta’ar (a scissors close like a razor) is permitted l’chatchila because it similar to a regular scissor involves giluach w/o hashchasa and the Rema Shach Taz Chasam Sofer etc concur.
It is clear from all the above mentioned Poskim that there is NO problem of lo silbash or “looking Goyish”, as they all permit removing all the hair with a tweezers or powder. The Chasam Sofer brings a number of Gemaros that a beard was NEVER considered a defining factor in “looking Jewish” and writes that wearing black shoes is much more problematic. He adds that since the Crusades it has been customary that only outstanding Talmidei Chachomim would grow beards.
Regarding Kabbalistic motives, the Chasam Sofer who was a talmid muvhak of the Hafla’ah and Reb Nosson Adler writes that there is no problem at all, as is evident from the MaHaRah miPano who was the “Father of Mekubalim” and was clean shaven. However there is admittedly much debate on this issue and it seems that different talmidim of the Arizal had various understandings on the matter. Since I am not personally versed in Kabbalah, I prefer not to comment.
It is also clear from the above that the mainstream, accepted Poskim are matir a misparaim kein ta’ar, the halachic category under which shavers fall. That is why I have quoted them as permitting electric shavers even though they did not address them directly, because part of the job of a Posek is to determine which existing category new technological innovation are most similar and the Poskim I listed permit l’chatchila the category of misparaim kein ta’ar.
Regarding the possibility that a shaver is a ta’ar, the Terumas HaDeshen brought in Darkei Moshe clearly defines the difference between a true ta’ar which is assur and a misparaim kein ta’ar which is mutar as whether the moving cutting blade makes direct contact with the skin. An electric shaver (other then possibly the lift-and-cut) certainly does not and would be mutar. Reb Tzvi Pesach Frank zatzal YD 143 clearly learns this way and therefore sees no issue with electric shavers, as does Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky based on personal conversations I have had with him on this issue. However Rav Vozner shlita in a number of teshuvos proposes an original understanding that the reason misparaim kein ta’ar is mutar is simply because it is not as close of a shave as a true ta’ar, but if it would create identical results it would also be considered hashchasa and be assur miD’Oraisa. Based on the assumtion that an electric shaver is in fact just as close as a razor he writes that they should be assur. He says he discussed this with the Chazon Ish who he understood to agree with his chiddish, but is disturbed that the Chazon Ish makes no mention of any issur in his sefer and seems to be uncertain if this indicates that he did not agree. It is evident from the teshuvos of the Nodah b’Yehuda and Chasam Sofer that one may cut the hairs of the beard with a scissors shorter then k’dei chagiras tziporen (what can be felt with the edge of the fingernail, for example when a shochet checks the schita knife) and this is NOT considered a ta’ar. They apparently either disagree with the understanding of the Shevet HaLevi or they define the closeness of a true ta’ar as leaving a PERFECTLY smooth face. This is something an electric shaver can not deliver.
While there are certainly grounds to be machmir, this pshat is not generally accepted. Furthermore, it is not an accurate depiction of the metzius as an electric shaver is NOT nearly as close as a razor, and it is not likely that even Rav Vozner would forbid shaving if he were aware of this.
All electric shavers are scissors and scissors are not assur. Do what makes you happy…
That is all very compelling, and if I were a posek would likely rule in accordance with the logic you just outlined. Nevertheless, the Gedolim of today and the previous generation evidentally feel that it is wrong and shouldn’t be done, if not an actual issur. This was demonstrated by the sourced post previously made on this thread.
You made a similar observation, if I recall correctly, on the worms in fish discussion, when you indicated you felt Rav Belsky’s logic more compelling but nevertheless against the ruling of the majority of gedolim. And you included Rav Heinneman as against, since he recommended not to eat it – even though he didn’t specifically state it was an actual issur.
Here I am stating simply the majority Gedolim of today and yesterday who’ve directly commented on shaving (rather than using our own interpretations to determine their position on the issue), are against it for whatever reason. Rav Kanievsky, to use as an example, was very clear on this, as sourced by a previous poster much earlier on the thread.
The problem of shaving is not only the 5 points and rounding corners but also the issue of “beged isha” (making your self looking like woman). For example you’re not allowed to pluck out white hairs from a beard for the reason of beged isha.
Time to rid yourself of that Norelco and start looking like a Yid. 🙂
Helpful, check out pictures of the Mir Yeshiva in Shaghai. 95% of the men were clean shaven. I guess they didn’t look like yidden. So, how do you rate against men like that?
helpful: I can’t fathom why you think the majority of Poskim asser shaving with an electric shaver. Igros Moshe EH 2:12 and YD 2:61 explicitly permit it as does Har Tzvi YD 143 and Rav Heinemann on the Star-K website and Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky in personal conversations I have had with him and he said the same in the name of his father. I haven’t seen anyone bring ANY reliable mareh mekomos of ossrim, maybe they were buried in the unreadable avalanche of copy-and-paste. Quoting numerous times a story that the Chazon Ish felt sick is NOT a mareh makom.
The Chazon Ish’s shitah, as to what I heard from Rav SZ Auerbach is he had put ink on his hand, and used a machine, which was able to clean up the ink blot, which was proof that it is haschasa, which is a similar opinion of Rav Elyasuv’s as well.
Rav Kanievsky’s approach is clearly a haskafa approach regarding growing beards, similar to chassidish approach.
Rav Shach used the Chafetz Chayim as a kal vechomer to assur modern day shavers.
Regarding Kabbalah, as I stated before, the Ramchal apparently was clean shaven, Reb Deblitzky is mentioned previously as well. The “MilkMan” also is clean shaven. However, the vast majority of mukubalim are against touching one’s beard whatsoever. That includes the Bab Sali, Rav Sheinberg – he told my brother this very clearly; and almost all the mekubalim I’m familiar with.
Partial summary of Gedolei Yisroel against shaving, and sources:
_____________
Chofetz Chaim
(Kuntres Tiferes Odom, by the Chofetz Chaim)
(Chofetz Chaim in chapter 6).
(Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlita in his sefer chapter 5, quoting the Chofetz Chaim – Kuntres Tiferes Odom Orchos Yosher.)
[He did this]
(Biography of the Chofetz Chaim, by his son [published in Kol Kisvei Chofetz Chaim])Chazon Ish
Sefer Hadras Ponim Zokon, p. 304 by Rav Moshe Sternbuch
Sefer Orchos Yosher p. 20 by Rav Chaim Kanievsky
Rav Chaim Kanievsky
Sefer “Ishei Yisrael” Sh”uT (one of first teshuvos in the back), pg. 717
Orchos Yosher (ch. 5)
(based on Targum Yonoson, Sefer Hachinuch, Chofetz Chaim, Chazon Ish, Steipler Gaon, etc. in support of this ruling.)
Sefer Orchos Yosher p.19:
My father and teacher [Rabbi Yaakov Yisroel Kanievsky, the Steipler Gaon], of blessed memory, was also very strict about this, saying it is very likely that [a shaving machine] is considered literally a razor, so that one transgresses five prohibitions for using it.
[In addition, the Chazon Ish] [chemical].
[depilatory cream] [poison] [lifegiving potion] either, and I find this matter very painful, for it is against the [Jewish] quality of modesty and is not the Jewish style of dress but [Jews] [with scissors] similar to [the effect of] a razor [close cutting], for I am accustomed to this being prohibited since the previous generations, and [the prohibition] [the Chazon Ish] once said that when someone who removes his beard..comes in to see him, he feels so sick that he almost vomits.
Rav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv
Sifrei “Haoros BMesechtes Kedushin”.
& C”C BTeshuvosoi HND’ Bkuvotz “Tzahar” Shaarei Halacha amud Pei Zayin
Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky
Emes L’Yaakov, Yoreh Deah 181 (Cleveland, 5760):
Regarding [the prohibition of using] machines for shaving [the beard], this is not just a Chumra [Halachic strictness] but a substantive [Halachic] issue, and residents of Bnei Brak are certainly obligated to follow the ruling of the local Halachic authorities (Poskim) [who prohibit using shavers]. In fact, I do not know whether the great Torah authorities (Gedolim) of America [ever] explicitly permitted them; it is possible that they kept silent because no one asked them [their opinion], and they avoided the issue, knowing that their words would not be heeded.
Rav Aharon Kotler
[Rav Aharon Kotler] [may one use a shaving machine] [the prohibition]
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was [still]
Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach
[Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach] wrote:
[by publishing this sefer] you are accomplishing something good and beneficial. Perhaps through this [sefer] the issues will be elucidated and clarified, thereby saving [the Jewish public]
Rav Yehuda Leib Steinman
In response to being asked whether one may use shaving machines on the beard, Rav Steinman wrote: As is well known, Gedolei Yisroel have prohibited thus. According to their statements, this almost certainly involves issur d’orayso. There is nothing further to add.
(Rav Ahron Yehuda Leib Steinman, evening of 24 Elul, 5758, Bnei Brak)
Other Gedolei Yisroel opposed to shaving include the Debreciner Rov, Rav Elozor Menachem M. Shach, Rav Moshe Sternbuch, Rav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv, the Baba Sali, Minchas Elozor [of Munkatch], S’dei Chemed, Rav Yosef Rosen, Rav Moshe Mordechai Epstein, Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rav Shmuel Wosner, Rav Avrohom Kalmonowitz, Bnei Yisoschor, Kapischnitzer Rebbe.
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The Chofetz Chaim when he referred to scissors was not discussing an issur l’halacha, because he would not argue on the Gemara and Shulchan Aruch. He NEVER discussed an electric shaver, as it was not yet invented when he wrote Likutei Halachos. More likely he meant the safety razor which was the newest innovation in shaving in his days. This is what your wife uses to shave her legs and it is certainly a ta’ar. He “frequently admonished about shaving the beard year after year” yes, with a razor.
Reb Elyashiv’s issur is based on the misunderstanding that the Likutei Halachos refers to an electric shaver.
Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky is not true according to his son.
The Chazon Ish equates a shaver with powder, which is not a halachic issue. Reb Chaim Kanievsky is quoting this and is obviously also not discussing a problem in halacha as is obvious from the context where he writes that it was learned from goyim. The story about ink is very questionable, because the guard would scrape off ink but have no significance to hair.
Just a few examples to show this cut-and-past list is totally irrelevant.
“The Chofetz Chaim when he referred to scissors was not discussing an issur l’halacha”
“Reb Elyashiv’s issur is based on the misunderstanding that the Likutei Halachos refers to an electric shaver.”
WADR, I’d rather go with Rav Elyashiv’s “misunderstanding”, than an unknown persons “understanding.”
“Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky is not true according to his son.”
It’s written in Emes L’Yaakov. Again, an unknown person’s asserted conversation with his son, against Reb Yaakov’s printed word.
Hello99 – I was personally by Rav Elyashiv, yes years ago when I was bochur, and I know many others as well at that time. He paskined based on the outcome, if the shaver did too fine a job it was considered haschasa, and assur according to the shita that the outcome is what is important and not whether the instrument is similar to scissors.
The maaseh with the Chazon Ish I have heard from other sources, but I heard this when a bochur was asking Rav SZ Auerbach the shaila, and I was standing right there. The point here again is whether the outcome haschasa is important or the means, i.e, scissors are important.
I believe the Machon Hatenhnologi Lehalacha has a long diyun on this topic.
To the best of my knowledge, Rav Yaakov Yisroel Fisher was matir as well. If my father in law was still alive I could verify this. Maybe my wife or brother in law, or one of his sons knows.
maxwell: The Chofetz Chaim may have preferred a beard, but he did NOT hold it is assur to shave. The Gemara, Shulchan Aruch etc who permit plucking with a tweezers obviously hold there is NO issue of lo silbash, and Igros Moshe explicitly permits it.
My “understanding” is based on documented historical facts. The electric shaver was invented after the printing of Likutei Halachos.
Reb Yaakov Kamentzky did NOT print Emes L’Yaakov nor was it printed in his lifetime. Someone collected recollections of things he said, and some of the recollection were inaccurate according to his son.
fabie: as I pointed out, even if the outcome is the important factor the shaver must cut as close as a razor or at least significantly less then chagiras tziporen. An electric shaver doesn’t do that, I don’t know how the metzius was explained to Rav Elyashiv. Re the Chazon Ish as well, the blade of an electric shaver could NEVER scrape ink off ones skin, the guard would prevent it.
At the end of the day, it is you versus the CC, CI, R. Kanievsky, R. Shach, etc. etc. THEY called it an issur, as the many maare mekomos above prove. And it was the CC who brought up lo yilbash.
I rest my case.
I rest my case.
So, you have no right to listen to your rav. In fact, never ask your local rav about anything… always go to the gadol hador. After all, he might disagree with your rav and we know who’s bigger…
:: rolleyes ::
The Wolf
It’s not only the Gedolim who state this, however (as has already been mentioned in this thread), the Zohar attributes holiness to the beard and completely forbids it being shaved with anything. The Arizal went one step further and taught not to even touch one’s beard.
Wolf, I would assume your Rav who disagrees with Gedolei Yisroel and ignores the Zohar over shaving also has a basis for this?
Wolf, I would assume your Rav who disagrees with Gedolei Yisroel and ignores the Zohar over shaving also has a basis for this?
Since I trust my rav, then, yes, I’m certain he DOES have a basis for it — and, were I inclined to do so, I know that I can ask him and receive an answer. But I’m not inclined to ask my rav every time he makes a halachic decision why he didn’t go with the other side.
The Wolf
Akiva:
The Litvish Olam does not Pasken based on the Zohar, when Halacha says it is Mutar.
That is more Chassidish (some! Chassidim, clearheaded)
But the point is valid.
This has gone from a halachic discussion to one of hashkafa.
Based on the things attributed in the various messages to a number of poskim past and present as well as Roshei Yeshiva past and present it can be pretty much agreed that halachically there is a dispute whether todays electric shavers are considered a taar or not. Independent of that machlokes there appears to be a machlokes as to what constitutes a taar (how it cuts, as opposed to how close it cuts).
Hashkafically too, there is clearly a disagreement (as evidenced by some who cite several yeshivos where a bachur needs permission from a rosh yeshiva to grow his beard).
My personal opinion is, unless you see someone clearly violating halacha by using something which is considered a “Taar” according to all opinions, keep your opinion to yourself. If you are so concerned about his neshama and his yiddishkeit, call his Rav and discuss a plan of action with him.
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